SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

[mabraham]

Wouldn't the tech path of poly, agriculture, masonry be better?

Then we can build a warrior and might get less fail gold from Stonehenge but we get the corn farm online much faster. I'll try to play that out but I don't have much time this morning.

The window when we have a worker and haven't finished both Masonry and Ag is three turns. If we have Masonry first and are building SH, then our gain is 3*3=9 hammers which later turns into 9 gold. If we have Ag first, then we gain access to the corn farm 3 turns sooner for 3*3=9 food. So Ag first looks better.

 

[mabraham]

tech poly, agriculture, masonry, wheel, priesthood

T14 poly
T20 settler 1E of deer, starts warrior
T26 warrior
T28 worker in capital immediately starts farming corn, starts stonehenge
T31 warrior and masonry finishes, start wheel (mistake?)
T32 farm finished
T33 FP farm started (mistake I think)
T38 Delhi 3 pop starts settler (stops stonehenge)
T45 priesthood (skipped hunting another mistake I think)
T47 Greatwall finishes in deer city
T48 settler settles 1NW of the Marble
T51 worker built in capital (Oracle built by AI)

worker priorities were also poor. And tech wise perhaps we can skip wheel if we settle on the marble and build the oracle in that city.

Possible, but the timing of the capital building settler-worker-SH(stopped)-settler-TGW was very nice in my test game, finishing right about the time I got PH and marble hooked up. City sizes and available improved tiles were also rather nice. We do want Wheel for the trade route to the third city, as well as marble access. Settling on the marble means we get 3 central hammers, plus some later Gmines. Not settling on the marble means we get 1 central hammer, the right to work a 43 tile, and some later Gmines - this feels a lot stronger to me because there will be 2+ workers to get that quarry up ASAP. Available workers make for a different context from the decision to settle on the resource originally (and the river commerce bonus is nice too).

 

[bcool]

Another test

Poly-agriculture-masonry-hunting-wheel-priesthood-writing (traded for last 2 turns of writing and bronze working on T60)

T14 poly
T22 agriculture
T25 masonry?
T32 hunting?
T43 wheel
T50 priesthood

T18 settler finished, worker started
T21 city founded starts warrior
T25 warrior, start warrior
T31 warrior, starts Great Wall
T28 worker finished, start stonehenge for failure gold
T32 farm finished move to grass hill near capital start mine
T38 capital grows to 3 pop, switch from stonehenge to settler
T47 settler finished, switch to worker
T49 Great Wall finishes, deer city switches to worker, city on marble founded
T50 3rd city switches to oracle for failure gold as roads are finished
T51 Capital starts Oracle
T60 trading for BW and writing
T61 finish Oracle, pyramids started in deer city

worker priorities - corn farm, grass hill mine, deer camp, mine for deer city, roads to link to marble, grass hill mine capital...

 

[mabraham]

I did a direct comparison out to T59 of settler-worker with warrior-worker-warrior (which I judged superior to warrior-warrior-worker). Both teched Poly, Ag, Mas, Hunt, Wheel, PH, Writing, Aesth. Both did TGW (T50, T51 respectively), Mids in the deer city. Both settled NW of marble and filled in time with warriors until Writing for a library. Both completed Oracle (T58, T59 respectively). Each built two workers and three warriors (plus the starting warrior). Neither traded with AIs. The former settled the third city faster, and that city was able to catch up the warrior count.

So they're very close to each other so far. Looking at the empires:

Settler-worker
[pre]37 Gold, 67 beakers on Aesthetics, 53 worker turns spent on improvements
Pop Food Hammers GPP
4 4 10 8
4 3 102 36
3 5 12 0
[/pre]
warrior-worker-warrior
[pre]59 Gold, 44 beakers on Aesthetics, 59 worker turns spent on improvements
Pop Food Hammers GPP
4 26 6 4
4 8 104 32
2 18 9 0
[/pre]
This looks like a narrow win for warrior-worker-warrior. It got more scouting done sooner, and was safer before TGW was finished. Gold is more valuable than the beakers (library multipliers available soon). The capital is about to grow. The empire is 16 net food ahead, 6 base hammers behind, and 6 worker improvement turns ahead. Both its wonders were one turn slower than the alternative, however.

 

[bcool]

I'm a bit sad that the settler first didn't seem to win out in the end.

mabraham's tests are better than mine overall. I think I might have built the GW 1 turn earlier and I haven't gotten all my fail gold, but his workers turns look significantly ahead and his micromanagement of sharing the food and not settling on the marble I think makes a significant difference. I did have 3 workers compared to his 2 so perhaps I could catch up with him in the worker department. Mine might not be as bad as it seems.

I'll try again with a 3 worker plan out to T59 and see if I can do any better than mabraham, but I suspect I will fail.

 

[mabraham]

I'm a bit sad that the settler first didn't seem to win out in the end.

mabraham's tests are better than mine overall. I think I might have built the GW 1 turn earlier and I haven't gotten all my fail gold, but his workers turns look significantly ahead and his micromanagement of sharing the food and not settling on the marble I think makes a significant difference. I did have 3 workers compared to his 2 so perhaps I could catch up with him in the worker department. Mine might not be as bad as it seems.

I'll try again with a 3 worker plan out to T59 and see if I can do any better than mabraham, but I suspect I will fail.

It's hard to see a good window for getting a third worker at a time when there's something useful to improve. Those games I posted worked very few unimproved tiles, and if there had been another worker built, there'd have been less population to work tiles anyway. Admittedly, the capital at size four would have liked another Gmine, and right about T59 we could use another mine in the capital and two more mines for the deer city, but the latter are underway. Once they're done, there would not be much to do until we acquire Pottery.

It occurs to me that worker-warrior-warrior will have time for the worker to get up all three capital Gmines at about the time Ag arrives, which might be the strongest approach around, if we're happy with the slower scouting.

 

[mabraham]

I tried a worker-warrior-warrior. Preliminary results:

worker-warrior-warrior
[pre]47 Gold, 45 beakers on Aesthetics, 57 worker turns spent on improvements
Pop Food Hammers GPP
4 24 166 8 (Pyramids)
3 15 136 0 (TGW)
2 14 49 0 (Fast Worker)
[/pre]

I built the second worker in the deer city, which I think was a mistake. This has the same workers, same warriors, same tech. It's up about 60 hammers on the Pyramids - but building them in the capital, about 9 turns slower on TGW, and we have most of a third worker (but less growth overall).

 

[Kaitzilla]

I am back. Need a day to catch up, and then I'll start posting again.

 

[mabraham]

I did a much stronger a worker-warrior-warrior. T51 TGW T57 Oracle. T59 results:

worker-warrior-warrior
[pre]38 Gold (but 24 hammers stored on Pyramids in capital), 58 beakers on Aesthetics,
67 worker turns spent on improvements, built four warriors
Pop Food Hammers GPP (building)
4 21 21 12 (Library)
4 5 132 36 (Pyramids)
3 2 4 0 (Library)
[/pre]

This looks like the strongest game yet. I teched Poly Ag Masonry Hunting Wheel PH Writing as usual. I built worker warrior warrior settler. The worker put 11 turns on mines before switching to the corn and then flood plain when Ag arrived, then over to the deer camp 1 turn after settling that site. (It is a while before all three mines get used, but birds in the hand are good.) Then the capital grew on Stonehenge to size 4, then worker-settler. Workers improve more tiles around deer site, finish capital mine and put up some roads. Workers were in position to improve marble the turn that site settled. The capital had some time to juggle SH, Pyramids and Oracle so as to sync finishing Writing with finishing Oracle. Exactly when this can occur depends when an AI finishes SH, but all my test game reports have been comparable in this regard (AI did SH T50-51). Scouting and safety were fine, IMO.

 

[bcool]

Based on mabraham's testing it looks like worker first is good. Now that the micro question seems to be settled in favor of worker first, we should think about a grand strategy.

But just one clarification, when was the great wall built with the worker first plan?

I think the worker first plan is looking good and will provide flexibility, we can debate what to do as we learn more about the game and develop a plan to win. I think we can debate a few issues later for example if the pyramids is something we want to go for and if we might want to stretch and oracle something deeper in the tech tree.

We might want to try to bulb mathematics for example and get construction with the Oracle perhaps.

We can wait for another day for feedback on the initial builds, but I think Walter_Wolf should develop a new planning PPP based on recent testing (and I think assuming a worker first).

 

[mabraham]

Based on mabraham's testing it looks like worker first is good. Now that the micro question seems to be settled in favor of worker first, we should think about a grand strategy.

But just one clarification, when was the great wall built with the worker first plan?

I think the worker first plan is looking good and will provide flexibility, we can debate what to do as we learn more about the game and develop a plan to win. I think we can debate a few issues later for example if the pyramids is something we want to go for and if we might want to stretch and oracle something deeper in the tech tree.

We might want to try to bulb mathematics for example and get construction with the Oracle perhaps.

We can wait for another day for feedback on the initial builds, but I think Walter_Wolf should develop a new planning PPP based on recent testing (and I think assuming a worker first).

Added wonder timings to above post. They're as good or better than the other times going around.

Certainly there is room to debate all the choices I made in these test runs, but the general conclusion is that worker first gets the five mine+farm tiles in the capital improved at about the time a second city settles, at which point we are not tied to building a second worker for that new city unless we want to. Scouting the actual tiles that various city sites will offer will inform those decisions, of course.

Unless we get some contrary test results, I think that if WW updates his PPP accordingly, he can scout warrior 1S, and unless there's something amazing down south (grassland gems plus grassland corn) we settle on stone and start a worker. Warrior then heads SE-NE-NE? The SE gets him a few tiles away from the capital before we head to scout the deer site.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Based on mabraham's testing it looks like worker first is good. Now that the micro question seems to be settled in favor of worker first, we should think about a grand strategy.

But just one clarification, when was the great wall built with the worker first plan?

I think the worker first plan is looking good and will provide flexibility, we can debate what to do as we learn more about the game and develop a plan to win. I think we can debate a few issues later for example if the pyramids is something we want to go for and if we might want to stretch and oracle something deeper in the tech tree.

We might want to try to bulb mathematics for example and get construction with the Oracle perhaps.

We can wait for another day for feedback on the initial builds, but I think Walter_Wolf should develop a new planning PPP based on recent testing (and I think assuming a worker first).

For a Grand Strategy, I'd like to consider Domination Victory via Great Scientist bulbing of Metal Casting, Machinery and Engineering. The requirements for doing this easily are avoid (prior to the bulbs) Fishing (GS will bulb many naval technologies -> Astronomy), Code of Laws (GS will bulb Philosophy), and Civil Service/Theology (GS will bulb Paper -> Education). Also, the following technologies must be researched or otherwise acquired: Aesthetics (good technology to research and trade), Mathematics (another good technology to research and trade), and Alphabet (should be easy to get in trade or steal if necessary). Researching or Oracling Construction will be required as a prerequisite of Engineering.

Ivory and Horseback Riding would also permit War Elephants, but Pikemen could fill the role of defense against mounted units if necessary.

The majority of the mainline units would be Crossbowmen, War Elephants (or some Pikeman) and Trebuchets.

Useful Great Wonders include The Great Wall (early Great Spy), The Pyramids (Representation - adds +3 Bpt to both settled Great People and specialists that cost 2 Fpt, so its useful even with somewhat low food) and Shwedagon Paya (Pacifism or Theocracy - given that we must stay Hindu, it would be good to have the early choice of any Religious Civic excluding Free Religion, especially since Gandhi is Spiritual and thus there isn't any anarchy ever). Note that we would still need Theology to build The Apostolic Palace, unless we can gain the majority vote for the Papal Election via conquest and TAP religion spread.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[mabraham]

For a Grand Strategy, I'd like to consider Domination Victory via Great Scientist bulbing of Metal Casting, Machinery and Engineering. The requirements for doing this easily are avoid (prior to the bulbs) Fishing (GS will bulb many naval technologies -> Astronomy), Code of Laws (GS will bulb Philosophy), and Civil Service/Theology (GS will bulb Paper -> Education). Also, the following technologies must be researched or otherwise acquired: Aesthetics (good technology to research and trade), Mathematics (another good technology to research and trade), and Alphabet (should be easy to get in trade or steal if necessary). Researching or Oracling Construction will be required as a prerequisite of Engineering.

Ivory and Horseback Riding would also permit War Elephants, but Pikemen could fill the role of defense against mounted units if necessary.

The majority of the mainline units would be Crossbowmen, War Elephants (or some Pikeman) and Trebuchets.

Useful Great Wonders include The Great Wall (early Great Spy), The Pyramids (Representation - adds +3 Bpt to both settled Great People and specialists that cost 2 Fpt, so its useful even with somewhat low food) and Shwedagon Paya (Pacifism or Theocracy - given that we must stay Hindu, it would be good to have the early choice of any Religious Civic excluding Free Religion, especially since Gandhi is Spiritual and thus there isn't any anarchy ever). Note that we would still need Theology to build The Apostolic Palace, unless we can gain the majority vote for the Papal Election via conquest and TAP religion spread.

Sun Tzu Wu

Seems good. Pyramids are also useful for Police State during the war phase.

The fastest way to Oracle Construction can involve bulbing Maths with the first GScientist. So a route like the worker-first test game above is plausible, since it gets Writing which gets libraries up ASAP. The earliest we could be popping a GScientist in the capital would be around ~T75, to sync with the Oracle. Pyramids for Rep would arrive around then, to help with the scientists we'd run for the other GS.

OTOH there might well be enough time after T55 or so to research Maths the hard/efficient way.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

Goal oriented PPP v2

The goal for this turnset is to settle the capital on stone, start a worker, and reveal as much land possible.

The plan:
1. Settle on stone (if no commerce resource appears around the marble site).
2. Start worker.
3. Research Polytheism.
4. Scout the SE territory with the initial warrior (will draw the path later).
5. Put a „Real game“ sign (using Alt+S) near the capital.

Stopping points:
If marble site looks better than stone,
Run into an animal with unoptimal route of escape,
Meet an AI,
Loose the warrior,
Peak in front of the warrior on the agreed route.

Every turn:
Take screenshots of the demographics screen,
Look for AI culture in sattelite view,
Save game,
Note (using Alt+S) forest/jungle growth, animals appearing etc.

Warrior path coming soon

 

[Walter_Wolf]

Turnset 1 PPP (T1 – T10) v1

Tech

Start Polytheism. Tell me if you want to use the „baker accumulation“ trick, but beware, I need precise instructions on it.

Cities

Delhi
Start worker, working grassland forest. Switch to corn after the border pop T6. We get 6 production this way, so the worker finishes in 10 turns. Alternatively, we can work the grassland tile for the 1 comerce / baker, but I think a faster worker is better.

Units

The tile 2S of the warrior is a hill, so I suggest we move the warrior 1S1W on marble (instead of proposed 1S) and then to that hill. We could go 1S, 1S, but I think this is better. I draw the warrior path (I'm no artist, believe me).

Spoiler :

The other points of interest are in the goal oriented PPP. I will condense these two after feedback.

I plan to play in the evening of the February 1st to give you enough time to respond. That's aproximately … 37 – 38 hours from now. Please provide feedback so I have time for corrections.

cheers

 

[mabraham]

Goal oriented PPP v2

The goal for this turnset is to settle the capital on stone, start a worker, and reveal as much land possible.

The plan:
1. Settle on stone (if no commerce resource appears around the marble site).
2. Start worker.
3. Research Polytheism.
4. Scout the SE territory with the initial warrior (will draw the path later).
5. Put a „Real game“ sign (using Alt+S) near the capital.

Stopping points:
If marble site looks better than stone,
Run into an animal with unoptimal route of escape,

When choosing how to move the warrior with a barb animal visible, I'm happy facing combat

• against a wolf anywhere,
• against a bear on forested hill or with it attacking across a river, and
• against anything else on forest or hill or across river.

Otherwise we should try to use diagonals for movement efficiency and seek to maximise terrain visibility. Note that hills, forests, jungles, peaks and oasis block vision. Being on a hill increases vision range. Being next to water increases vision range across the water.

Meet an AI,
Loose the warrior,
Peak in front of the warrior on the agreed route.

Every turn:
Take screenshots of the demographics screen,
Look for AI culture in sattelite view,
Save game,
Note (using Alt+S) forest/jungle growth, animals appearing etc.

Warrior path coming soon

Turnset 1 PPP (T1 – T10) v1

Tech

Start Polytheism. Tell me if you want to use the „baker accumulation“ trick, but beware, I need precise instructions on it.

When prompted to choose a tech on T1-5 select Polytheism, and then click on the bar at the top of the screen to de-select it. Repeat next turn. On T5, leave it selected. Do have a practice on the test game.

Cities

Delhi
Start worker, working grassland forest. Switch to corn after the border pop T6. We get 6 production this way, so the worker finishes in 10 turns. Alternatively, we can work the grassland tile for the 1 comerce / baker, but I think a faster worker is better.

Yep.

Units

The tile 2S of the warrior is a hill, so I suggest we move the warrior 1S1W on marble (instead of proposed 1S) and then to that hill. We could go 1S, 1S, but I think this is better. I draw the warrior path (I'm no artist, believe me).

I do not think the tile 2S of the warrior is a hill. Yes, there's a dimple that suggests a hill but you can see a similar dimple in the test game screenshots, where there is no hill. I tried using Alt-arrow to change the view angle for some further clues here. In the real and test game I can see no evidence of a hill on this tile. When I WorldBuilt a hill there in the test game, I could see shadows of it through the edge of the fog.

• If that tile is not a hill, then there is no visibility advantage to being on the marble, because the terrain 1N1W, 1W and 1S1W of marble blocks vision. So I would prefer moving 1S because that retains the option of moving 1S1E of it next, and simply sees more tiles for a hypothetical change of settling decision.
• If that tile is a hill, then moving to marble will get visibility 3S of warrior, but not get visibility of the tile 2S1E of warrior (and vice-versa for moving warrior 1S). Each of those tiles is in the BFC of the marble site, so moving to marble or 1S breaks even in this respect. However the tile 2S1E is also in the BFC of the hypothetical settling site where the warrior is now, as is the tile 1S2E. Both of those are exposed by moving 1S, and neither is exposed by moving to marble. I can see no gain for moving to marble that compensates for this tiny loss.

Otherwise, the suggested route has the right general idea. I would start S, SE, SE, NE, NE, NE, because that will likely have seen the hill-looking tiles 1E, 1S1E and 2S1E of deer, and that will be a good basis for further scouting.

Spoiler :

The other points of interest are in the goal oriented PPP. I will condense these two after feedback.

I plan to play in the evening of the February 1st to give you enough time to respond. That's aproximately … 37 – 38 hours from now. Please provide feedback so I have time for corrections.

cheers

Sounds good.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

I do not think the tile 2S of the warrior is a hill. Yes, there's a dimple that suggests a hill but you can see a similar dimple in the test game screenshots, where there is no hill. I tried using Alt-arrow to change the view angle for some further clues here. In the real and test game I can see no evidence of a hill on this tile. When I WorldBuilt a hill there in the test game, I could see shadows of it through the edge of the fog.

hmm ... I really thought it was a hill, and that we would get better visibility.

• If that tile is not a hill, then there is no visibility advantage to being on the marble, because the terrain 1N1W, 1W and 1S1W of marble blocks vision. So I would prefer moving 1S because that retains the option of moving 1S1E of it next, and simply sees more tiles for a hypothetical change of settling decision.
• If that tile is a hill, then moving to marble will get visibility 3S of warrior, but not get visibility of the tile 2S1E of warrior (and vice-versa for moving warrior 1S). Each of those tiles is in the BFC of the marble site, so moving to marble or 1S breaks even in this respect. However the tile 2S1E is also in the BFC of the hypothetical settling site where the warrior is now, as is the tile 1S2E. Both of those are exposed by moving 1S, and neither is exposed by moving to marble. I can see no gain for moving to marble that compensates for this tiny loss.

Otherwise, the suggested route has the right general idea. I would start S, SE, SE, NE, NE, NE, because that will likely have seen the hill-looking tiles 1E, 1S1E and 2S1E of deer, and that will be a good basis for further scouting.



Sounds good.

Your route is moved by one "diagonal row" to the North (if I read correctly), and reveals less terrain than mine. Maybe a S-S-SE-SE-NE ... route would be better. It reveals all tiles between the arrows and the momentally visible ones, and a row further to the East.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

When prompted to choose a tech on T1-5 select Polytheism, and then click on the bar at the top of the screen to de-select it. Repeat next turn. On T5, leave it selected. Do have a practice on the test game.

Does it count 5 turns from
T0 = game started or
T1 = capital settled?

I'll try it out in the test game for sure.

 

[shulec]

When the turn counter in the upper right corner by the date says 5/500, you need to select a tech to put your beakers to before hitting enter.

 

[WastinTime]

I go worker 1st 99% of the time. I also did a test and agree: worker 1st.
I'll leave warrior movement alone, y'all are doing a great job (maybe too good) on that.