SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

[WastinTime]

I don't like scouting around on normal game speed with the settler. Pick a location based on what we know and commit to it. If the other location was slightly better, we will eventually settle there too. It will not be so much better that it would make up the 1 or 2 turn loss from delayed settling.
I'm still voting for settling Stone.

I like the warrior East suggestion. I don't find it that urgent to scout the surrounding area (since I'm currently opposed to settler first production.) I will play the test games soon so I can argue with more certainty (thanks for making the tests btw).

 

[mabraham]

We need more feedback on where to move the warrior and settler.

There seems to be a consensus that we want to move the settler to the stone although there might still be some disagreement there. Please speak up if you still object to moving the settler to the stone.

Happy with moving to stone.

Also I like moving the warrior to the Marble now for these reasons

I'm not sure we have enough information to commit to building a settler first.
Moving the warrior to the Marble will reveal if it might be worth settling on the marble with a settler that we build first. If the Marble site isn't that great then maybe we don't want a settler first. So while it might be a slight waste of the warriors scouting to go explore the marble and have to come back. I think it will help us make a critical decision.

Move warrior to marble gains vision of only one marble-BFC tile (2W1S of marble) that we would not see by moving warrior 1S. If that tile is a hill, we gain nothing. Else, if there's a further hill (say 2W2S or 3W1S of marble), we gain vision of that too.

So the gain from moving to marble is pretty small. I'm happy if that's what people want to do, though.

You could have the warrior do a small loop to the south to minimize backtracking. So it goes on the marble then goes in a SW direction, then S, then SE, then E, then NE, then N, then NW to return to the marble area for settler protection if we decide to go that way.

Of course this isn't ideal if we are on the southern edge of the world as the DanF and others have suggested from their observations.

Also having the warrior wander a bit away from the capital rather than around the capital might let us explore a worker stealing opportunity that shulec suggest we need to do early if we don't want to be dogpiled by the buddhist coalition. (but south isn't a great direction to find the other AI...)

 

[WastinTime]

Please provide any comments about the test game.

Sun Tzu Wu

Hindu founded on turn 5. Short game.

Also, the warrior should have already moved (instead he has 1 move left)

Another thing, your Sheep tile gives an advantage we're not likely to start with on turn 1.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

Seems like most of the team agrees with settling on stone. I also like the early 3 hammers for the capital option, faster warrior explorers for later fogbusting and MP units as their final fate, and an early wonder shot.

My proposal/plan would be:

T0 move the settler to the stone tile
T1 move the warrior

stop, take some screenshots and wait for the discussion.

Now, about the warrior move. If we move the settler to the stone tile on T0, I guess settling on/around marble is out of the question, 'cause of too many wasted turns. Regardless, the marble site should be explored sooner rather than later, but it's not that much of a hurry. That's why I suggest moving the warrior another tile East (meaning 1S1E) for revealing that part of the map, and then head Westwards "under" the marble in a zig - zag fashion (hill 1S1E of marble on T2 etc.). Will study those moves more precisely after feedback.
Another option is exploring the NW territory, as the AI will most likely be located to our North.

I am waiting for feedback on this, and plan to go ahead with it in 24 hours if the team agrees.

cheers

I'm giving this an another 24 hours delay, since there wasn't much feedback about it. I see something is developing now, and I hope we get to a concensus till tomorrow.

Thanks

 

[shulec]

Can we move the settler to stone now, then post a screenshot before moving the warrior? The land to the north could affect our decision for the warrior's movement.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Can we move the settler to stone now, then post a screenshot before moving the warrior? The land to the north could affect our decision for the warrior's movement.

I agree with shulec.

Move the Settler onto the Stone, ... That would effectively end our part of t0, right? Then, we might as well learn what AI announcements that might occur in the IBT of t0. So End Turn and report status at the beginning of t1?

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Okay, found the time to create the Highlands-Test-Game.

Your map is 52x44. A normal Highlands "Standard" map is 64x40. How did you create that map size? Did you modify the Highlands.py file to generate the desired map size?

@Sun Tzu Wu:
I reckon you chose the Global Highlands Mapscript ... this creates a huge map (104x64 though 'Standard' in size). As mentioned above, the real map is probably smaller.

Yes, I used the Global Highlands Mapscript and "Standard" size. Editing the WB file, one can see Map "parameter section":

BeginMap
grid width=104
grid height=64
top latitude=90
bottom latitude=-90
wrap X=1
wrap Y=0
world size=WORLDSIZE_STANDARD
climate=CLIMATE_TROPICAL
sealevel=SEALEVEL_LOW
num plots written=6656
num signs written=0
Randomize Resources=false
EndMap

Nice tweaking of the AI powers, but I'm afraid the Chariots (with UNITAI_ATTACK) might be of too offensive nature (one AI even has a 5 unit).
Therefore I like your idea to add Skirmishers better and added them in my save. They will merely defend cities and protect them against choking Warriors.
BTW there is some code (CvUnitAI::AI_poach()) which would let Attack-Units of the AI steal workers with AggAI on, but as far as I can see it never gets called ...

Yes, I agree that even one added Chariot per AI can be game changing. On the other hand, I thought that the AI is so weak in military strategy that it probably would with the Chariot for city defense anyway as I've often seen in my games. My intention was to replace it with something else worth 4000 Soldiers, but not necessarily a Skirmisher unit (though that works fine, I doubt that the scenario designer did it that way).

The scenario designer may easily have given each AI a Walls (+2000) in their capital and two extra Archers (2 x 3000) and removed The Wheel (-4000) for the +4000 net I was missing before I added the Chariot.

The problem with the random religion getting automatically founded after turn 5 (the isReligionSlotTaken for Buddhism remains false when adding Meditation in WB) can be avoided by using the Python command: gc.getTeam(1).setHasTech(1,true,1,true,true). I expect this is the way Neil has done it.

Can the above python statement be added to the mapscript one uses to generate the map (such as Highlands.py)?

I've only done trial and error editing from within the World Builder GUI. There seems to be a way to add scripts there too, but I don't know how to use it. Anyone have suggestions on where to look for advanced map/scenario editing, including editing the WB file raw text if required? I tried searching for such things, but all my hits are not related to what I'm trying to do - build and modify test map with minimal effort.

Thanks,

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[mabraham]

I agree with shulec.

Move the Settler onto the Stone, ... That would effectively end our part of t0, right? Then, we might as well learn what AI announcements that might occur in the IBT of t0. So End Turn and report status at the beginning of t1?

Sun Tzu Wu

Yeah, move settler to stone, end turn, and upload, assuming there's not a hail of support for any of the alternatives.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

All right

Will do it today (before the 24 hours mark maybe).

Plan:

T0 move the settler to the stone hill, end turn.

T1 Take a screenshot of the revealed area, and demographics screen.

Upload the screenshots and the save to the thread/GOTM server. Any end turn events will be reported too.

cheers

 

[DanF5771]

@Sun Tzu Wu:

Yes, I modified a CustomMaps-copy of Highlands.py (set WorldSizeTypes.WORLDSIZE_STANDARD: (13,11),).
I also forced a southern hemisphere by setting shiftMultiplier = 1 and tweaked the climate a bit by adjusting latitude parameters.

The AI uses its units according to their UNITAI, a kind of role the units are born into and which almost never changes. The Chariots inserted via WB automatically get UNITAI_ATTACK and the AI will use these offensively. You can also change the UNITAI in WB by selecting each individual unit and choosing a different UNITAI, such as UNITAI_RESERVE (I think the Chariots we occasionally see in the role of city defenders have this UNITAI). Skirmishers get UNITAI_CITY_DEFENSE by default and likely have the least impact on the game. You are right about the variety of options Neil could have used to increase AI power, let's see what we get.

I'm not really sure, but I doubt adding the 'setHasTech' python command somewhere in the Mapscript-file will lead to the wanted results. The AIs need to found their capitals first so that one of them can become the Holy City of Buddhism.
My procedure of creating the example map looked like this:

1. Create map with modified Highlands.py.
2. Terraform to achieve identical values for number of land tiles and food yield per tile as well as reshape our surrounding lands plus introduce 'special constellations'.
3. End Turn to let AIs found their capitals.
4. Save as WB-file.
5. Change WB-file to reset to 4000 BC and put two AIs in one team.
6. Load in Buffy.
7. Give extra units and techs to AIs in WB.
8. Let AI found Buddhism and choose research via mentioned python commands in console.
9. Spread Buddhism to all AI cities in WB and put Mahabodhi in Holy City.
10. Final terraforming tweaks to match demo screen values (while remaining conditions reached in step 2).
11. Move Warrior and save game.

= 'minimal' effort

 

[DanF5771]

I kind of like putting a very early second city 1E or 1NE of the Deer (provided we settle Delhi on Stone):

• can be founded in 3160 BC and finish Stonehenge + TGW until 2000 BC if we go Poly->Masonry->Ag->Hunting
• strong land grab in probably contested area
• immediately connected via river for (likely) instant net gain in commerce and Hindu spread
• depending on real map size, overall city maintenance might start with just 2
• as mentioned forested Deer is very strong tile to work unimproved
• Hunting is useful due to the likely nearby appearance of Fur
• One of the tiles E or NE might be a PH, not sure
• nearby hills can give important early hammers, our Fast Workers can quickly mine them
• can help grow capital cottages later should we aim for these

Imho the 3rd city should go for Marble to build Oracle, but I would put this city 1W of Marble as river quarry gives good commerce.

So I vote for using the Warrior to move 1S in order to check out the Marble spot but then scout the Deer area first.
Afterwards either explore further NE and return to guard Settler or in case the Deer spot is crap (peak cluster, close AI) move west along the Stone river to find a better city spot.
We should keep in mind that we are in Bear-Area, especially the south!

Edit: just checked conditions for animals to spawn, had mixed up Wolf and Bear:

		Terrain				Feature

Wolf		Tundra, Snow			Forest
Lion		Grass, Plains, Desert
Panther						Jungle
Bear						Forest

 

[DanF5771]

Sorry for the post spam, but I just had another idea which might be helpful.
It involves a Settler, a Barb Warrior and one of our units that can reliably beat this Warrior .....................

1. Settle city directly adjacent to Barb Warrior.
2. Gift city to kind neighbour, earn brownie points.
3. Let Barb Warrior march into undefended city.
4. Recapture city with our strong unit (winning odds: Archer 78%(unpromoted), 82%(Combat1), 97%(C1+Shock); Chariot 96%; Axe )
5. Wait for next Barb Warrior and goto 2

Cave:

• Best done with 'nonessential' city, maybe city no. 4/5, when AI still only has 3 cities and will accept a city anywhere on the map.
• 'Liberate city' won't work with enemy unit nearby, see also here.
• If we have TGW, the Barbs won't enter the city's borders, even after gifting it to an AI (bug?). Can anybody confirm this?

Edit: No, the effect of TGW was only to expel the Warrior out of the city radius = 2 tiles away. In my test, there were not enough cities founded in the world yet (NumCities <= 3*NumPlayersAlive) to let Barbs attack cities 2 tiles away. But if NumCities > 2*NumPlayersAlive they can be lured onto an adjacent tile of the city by an improvement which they can pillage (a road is enough!). Then they will march into the city.

 

[bcool]

I'm okay with warrior moving 1S as well. I didn't realize that moving the Marble would only reveal 1 more tile for the potential marble settling site.

And DanF points out that settling next to the deer with a 2nd city is nearly as good as settling on the marble since it is such a good tile without improvement, so checking out the deer area next sounds good to me.

I have yet to play a deeper test game to see if settler first really is the best however.

The settler first decision might hinge on what our goals are (what victory condition we plan for).

 

[Walter_Wolf]

hmm ... no good news.

Spoiler :

and the demographics screen:

Spoiler :

I don't have time to shrink the images right now, or check the changes in demographic screen. Will do it later if nobody does it faster.

The tiles 3N1E, 3N2E, 3E and 3E1N are all peaks.
Thats a lot of peaks .

I guess 1E was the best option here (still is).

 

[bcool]

Sorry for the post spam, but I just had another idea which might be helpful.
It involves a Settler, a Barb Warrior and one of our units that can reliably beat this Warrior .....................

1. Settle city directly adjacent to Barb Warrior.
2. Gift city to kind neighbour, earn brownie points.
3. Let Barb Warrior march into undefended city.
4. Recapture city with our strong unit (winning odds: Archer 78%(unpromoted), 82%(Combat1), 97%(C1+Shock); Chariot 96%; Axe )
5. Wait for next Barb Warrior and goto 2

Cave:

• Best done with 'nonessential' city, maybe city no. 4/5, when AI still only has 3 cities and will accept a city anywhere on the map.
• 'Liberate city' won't work with enemy unit nearby, see also here.
• If we have TGW, the Barbs won't enter the city's borders, even after gifting it to an AI (bug?). Can anybody confirm this?

Edit: No, the effect of TGW was only to expel the Warrior out of the city radius = 2 tiles away. In my test, there were not enough cities founded in the world yet (NumCities <= 3*NumPlayersAlive) to let Barbs attack cities 2 tiles away. But if NumCities > 2*NumPlayersAlive they can be lured onto an adjacent tile of the city by an improvement which they can pillage (a road is enough!). Then they will march into the city.

This is a neat idea (only possible with no city razing). Definitely something to keep in mind to reduce the diplo penalties we will have early on.

 

[bcool]

hmm ... no good news.

Spoiler :

and the demographics screen:

Spoiler :

I don't have time to shrink the images right now, or check the changes in demographic screen. Will do it later if nobody does it faster.

Walter_Wolf were there any announcements?

 

[Walter_Wolf]

no announcements ... let me check autolog ...

here:

Spoiler :

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 0/500 (4000 BC) [26-Jan-2012 17:28:40]
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

... nope

btw, the end turn went fast as hell, like I had a PC from the future (12 cores or something). I guess AI settling usually slows things down.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

Upload info:

Spoiler :

Thank you, Walter_Wolf. Your entry has been recorded and your upload is complete.

You may confirm that your submission is in the system by checking the submission list.

Here are the new details we have recorded.
Reference number: 11473
Game: C-IV SGOTM 15
Your team: Kakumeika
Your name: Walter_Wolf
Date submitted: 2012-01-26
Software Version: BtS 3.19
Game date: 3960BC
Player race: India
Firaxis score: 11
Session time played (hh:mm:ss): 00:40:01
Total time played (hh:mm:ss): 00:40:07
Game status: Incomplete
Submitted save: Gandhi_3960-BC_Jan-26-2012_17-30-25.CivBeyondSwordSave
Renamed file: Kakumeika_SG015_BC3960_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Right click the Renamed File link above to copy it.
You can then paste it into your team post as the download link for the next player.


Here is your Session Turn Log from 4000 BC to 3960 BC:


You may wish to copy it to Notepad for reference when you write your turn set post. It includes any entries you added with the in-game Chat facility

The only difference between T0 and T1 demo screen is the rival best land area figure going from 9000 to 21000. The Buddhist holly city must definetely be an inland one.

 

[mabraham]

I'm okay with warrior moving 1S as well. I didn't realize that moving the Marble would only reveal 1 more tile for the potential marble settling site.

Actually, the forest SW of marble in the actual save means there is no advantage at all to scouting to the marble this turn.

And DanF points out that settling next to the deer with a 2nd city is nearly as good as settling on the marble since it is such a good tile without improvement, so checking out the deer area next sounds good to me.

I have yet to play a deeper test game to see if settler first really is the best however.

The settler first decision might hinge on what our goals are (what victory condition we plan for).

Yeah... hard one. I think we want to see warrior 1S result before we knuckle down to some testing.

 

[mabraham]

hmm ... no good news.

...snip...

I guess 1E was the best option here (still is).

The stone site is as good as I expected it - no bonuses yet, but there's plenty of food for short term use, three(?) Ghills for hammers and getting a library to run scientists, and grasslands for cottages later.

I'm still keen to settle on stone.