SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

Sun Tzu Wu · May 12, 2012

Thanks bcool for providing feedback on Draft #3 of my PPP. Kaitzilla responded that he checked the teleport plan as ok, but didn't have time to look at the PPP. WastinTime also checked the teleport plan as ok, but his response was before my PPP Draft #3, so probably can't comment. mabraham just OK'ed PPP Draft #3, despite time zone differences ... and shulec just OK'ed the PPP, so that probably enough positive feedback to go through to the Moses teleport plan at least.

Concerns about getting Engineering completed in 4t:

With 5 extra units being build it will be a stretch to get Engineering completed in 4t (Research 40% on average for 4t, but only small cities building Wealth to keep the economy going). No Caste System until t150 really makes it hard, since that means no Merchants. I may have to build Wealth in a city for some of the first 4 turns rather than complete the scheduled military unit; PigsGems seems to be a likely place to do this, since it has 14 Hpt and if I delay the Catapult one turn it will gain +2 XP and the Hindu Missionary can be delayed 1t too and still catch up with the SoD before the t153 teleport. Just remembered that we will disband two units t143 that will save us 2-3 Wpt, so believe the original plan will fly even though we're adding 5 units on t146.

My major concern is loss of Citizens via whipping that can no longer work Commerce plots, but I'll just have to abort a military unit build and build Wealth instead, if we fall short of Engineering in t146.

Modification of the PPP (Possibly Build 1 Catapult less to ensure Engineering in 4t):

City: PigsGems:

t143: starts Catapult
t144-t145: builds Wealth
t146: whips Catapult (2 XP)
t147-t148: start/whip Hindu Missionary
t149-t153: builds Wealth

If getting Engineering in 4t remains promising, I'll revert to the original PigsGems build schedule. This will happen if we get significant Wealth via resource trading, begs and/or we can do the Guilds/Banking for Aesthetics + Horseback Riding + Wealth trades. I plan to trade Gold for 4 Wpt from Genghisgawa immediately and that should be enough to avoid the above modification. Can we trade Stone for Wpt?

I just want everyone to know that I may have to sacrifice up to 1 Catapult built to ensure we complete Engineering in 4t with a substantial SoD on schedule for a t154 DoW and t157 capture of Bulawayo.

Detail of Galley Chain:
t148:
Galley at 2-NW of PigsGems loads Delhi Crossbowman and CowTown Catapult/Spearman
Galley moves 3-NW
Ferry at 5-NW of PigsGems loads Delhi Crossbowman and CowTown Catapult/Spearman
Ferry moves into Nippur
t149: Nippur: Delhi Crossbowman and CowTown Catapult/Spearman continue via Land.

I will start playing shortly.

Sun Tzu Wu

mabraham · May 12, 2012

Sun Tzu Wu said:
Thanks bcool for providing feedback on Draft #3 of my PPP. Kaitzilla responded that he checked the teleport plan as ok, but didn't have time to look at the PPP. WastinTime also checked the teleport plan as ok, but his response was before my PPP Draft #3, so probably can't comment. mabraham just OK'ed PPP Draft #3, despite time zone differences ... and shulec just OK'ed the PPP, so that probably enough positive feedback to go through to the Moses teleport plan at least.

Concerns about getting Engineering completed in 4t:

With 5 extra units being build it will be a stretch to get Engineering completed in 4t (Research 40% on average for 4t, but only small cities building Wealth to keep the economy going). No Caste System until t150 really makes it hard, since that means no Merchants. I may have to build Wealth in a city for some of the first 4 turns rather than complete the scheduled military unit; PigsGems seems to be a likely place to do this, since it has 14 Hpt and if I delay the Catapult one turn it will gain +2 XP and the Hindu Missionary can be delayed 1t too and still catch up with the SoD before the t153 teleport. Just remembered that we will disband two units t143 that will save us 2-3 Wpt, so believe the original plan will fly even though we're adding 5 units on t146.

My major concern is loss of Citizens via whipping that can no longer work Commerce plots, but I'll just have to abort a military unit build and build Wealth instead, if we fall short of Engineering in t146.

Modification of the PPP (Possibly Build 1 Catapult less to ensure Engineering in 4t):

City: PigsGems:

t143: starts Catapult
t144-t145: builds Wealth
t146: whips Catapult (2 XP)
t147-t148: start/whip Hindu Missionary
t149-t153: builds Wealth

If getting Engineering in 4t remains promising, I'll revert to the original PigsGems build schedule. This will happen if we get significant Wealth via resource trading, begs and/or we can do the Guilds/Banking for Aesthetics + Horseback Riding + Wealth trades. I plan to trade Gold for 4 Wpt from Genghisgawa immediately and that should be enough to avoid the above modification. Can we trade Stone for Wpt?

I just want everyone to know that I may have to sacrifice up to 1 Catapult built to ensure we complete Engineering in 4t with a substantial SoD on schedule for a t154 DoW and t157 capture of Bulawayo.

Detail of Galley Chain:
t148:
Galley at 2-NW of PigsGems loads Delhi Crossbowman and CowTown Catapult/Spearman
Galley moves 3-NW
Ferry at 5-NW of PigsGems loads Delhi Crossbowman and CowTown Catapult/Spearman
Ferry moves into Nippur
t149: Nippur: Delhi Crossbowman and CowTown Catapult/Spearman continue via Land.

I will start playing shortly.

Sun Tzu Wu

Looks fine. Our teleport plan is trying hard to avoid large-scale combat for which we may be under-prepared - or at least avoid large-scale combat before we've secured Bulawayo. One less unit should not be a grave concern. If we decide around T150-1 to abort the teleport plan, then we'll have more time to bring up more units.

Sun Tzu Wu · May 12, 2012

mabraham said:
Looks fine. Our teleport plan is trying hard to avoid large-scale combat for which we may be under-prepared - or at least avoid large-scale combat before we've secured Bulawayo. One less unit should not be a grave concern. If we decide around T150-1 to abort the teleport plan, then we'll have more time to bring up more units.

Thanks for your comments. At the end of turn 143, I now believe the original plan will work fine. Island II brought a significant increase in Commerce (Thanks bcool). Also, the two unit disbands and Genghis Gold for 4 Wpt has cut at least 6 Wpt from our "deficit". There will not be a significant unit increase until turn 146, the turn when Engineering will be completed (End of Turn that is; Engineering usable t147). Our Wpt at Research 00% increased from 60 Wpt to 73 Wpt via the above economic reforms. Research rate at 100% jumped up 5-10% (visual on Engineering bar). Looking very good now economically!

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu · May 12, 2012

t144:

Shakagawa has Archer CG1Dr1 in GhostTown. We will need to build a few more units to retake it t154; will revise PPP after Engineering to accommodate.

Confucianism spread to Shaka Bacon Bit.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu · May 12, 2012

t145:

Cyrusgawa and Genghisgawa want Guilds, but have 0W to trade. We want to give Guilds to Genghisgawa, but would be nice to get some Wealth in return. We probably can wait a few turns to see whether he can scrape up some Wealth for a loopsided trade rather than gift.

Shakagawa is in WHEOOHRN (I don't think he was at t143; not sure about t144).

Now at end of Turn 145.

I'm taking a short break (~30 min.); that will give anyone checking this thread a little time to respond with comments.

Sun Tzu Wu

mabraham · May 12, 2012

I don't mind trying to milk a few gold from Genghis. The chance of us needing non-holy-war OB with him is pretty low. The chance of our economy needing the gold is getting pretty low, too. By T155ish, we expect our economy won't matter any more.

Sun Tzu Wu · May 12, 2012

Sun Tzu Wu said:
t145:

Cyrusgawa and Genghisgawa want Guilds, but have 0W to trade. We want to give Guilds to Genghisgawa, but would be nice to get some Wealth in return. We probably can wait a few turns to see whether he can scrape up some Wealth for a loopsided trade rather than gift.

Now t146:

Cyrusgawa has 50W and Genghisgawa has 70W.

I will trade Genghisgawa's 70W for Guilds, making a 70W profit above what the PPP allowed (free Guilds+Banking).

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu · May 12, 2012

Moses Teleport Maneuver Failed:

I canceled Open Borders with Hastegawa and ...

Units that were at 1-S+2-E of Thebes were teleported to 1-N+2-W of Akhetaten.

I will upload to the Server soon.

Sun Tzu Wu

Kaitzilla · May 12, 2012

Sun Tzu Wu said:
Moses Teleport Maneuver Failed:

I canceled Open Borders with Hastegawa and ...

Units that were at 1-S+2-E of Thebes were teleported to 1-N+2-W of Akhetaten.

I will upload to the Server soon.

Sun Tzu Wu

Drats, the South_AI city must have had a border pop. Or maybe teleportation mechanics doesn't recognize world wrap. Guess we will just have to take that Hatty city now. The Team_AI still isn't adopting Mercantilism it seems. Should pause the turnset now I think. We will want to decide when war with Hatty will be most advantageous.

Sun Tzu Wu · May 12, 2012

SGOTM Server Upload Log:

Spoiler :

autolog.txt file content:

Spoiler :

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu · May 12, 2012

Kaitzilla said:
Drats, the South_AI city must have had a border pop. Or maybe teleportation mechanics doesn't recognize world wrap. Guess we will just have to take that Hatty city now. The Team_AI still isn't adopting Mercantilism it seems. Should pause the turnset now I think. We will want to decide when war with Hatty will be most advantageous.

Yes, I also consider this a stopping condition. I will not continue until there is a team consensus to do so.

BTW, we don't have enough military near Akhetaten to capture it, even with recalling the Sword and Axeman. We will need to build significant force to take and keep it long enough to give it to Huayanagawa with Hinduism.

Sun Tzu Wu

Kaitzilla · May 12, 2012

Hmm, world wrap doesn't seem to affect teleportation. That South_AI city must have gotten a border pop.

If no one else is on tonight, we will probably try more turns on Monday

mabraham · May 12, 2012

Moses failure is annoying, but not a critical problem. I think STW is good to continue fairly shortly along the same lines. Some suggestions below. We have to keep the game moving - stopping for the whole team to comment is no longer reasonable with 8 days to go.

Missionary 9 should spread in Akhetaten this turn, and its planned replacement started (in PigsGems?).

Axeman 9 in Shaka culture should take a look at Bulawayo and get a screenshot of the defenders. Then probably do some general scouting around. The two Cyrus tiles upon which we are relying have no Shaka culture on them, so they'll be safe for our puposes.

Otherwise, we finish Eng, continue to produce units, including any new ones required to safely re-take GT and Hammsville T154. Then we produce units, spies and EPs to do a similar maneuver on Hatse: 2 spies to HatseGift for a Hindu flip, 2 spies to Akehetaten for a city revolt (if we really need it), and units to storm the city around T163.

Since Hinduism spread to the pair will not happen before T154, we won't have to defend Bulawayo once we have taken it, because they will not be at war with Shaka. We also won't have OB with them, possibly ever. Depends if these cities are liberations, I guess.

I note that EastPort is in revolt, so might flip to Hatse from Alexandria's culture pressure. The Patton missionary may be a backup for spreading to Genghis, too. Tabriz will be the obvious site to spread Hinduism if required.

There is some extra ice north of Karakorum that looks like it will require a galleon to reach the northern AI pair, if the SBB boat maneuver becomes necessary and OB becomes possible at some point. How sure are we that we can get a galleon from a fort to teleport properly?

shulec · May 12, 2012

East town is in revolt and is in serious risk of flipping to Hatsegawa.

Still no mercantilism.

shulec · May 12, 2012

Genghigawa losing Easttown is a problem. We need to get missionary 7 and Patton Caravel down to the "Centertown" site, settle, infect and liberate. If we lose this location, we may not be able to spread to Genghi. He has to keep Easttown for ~10 more turns to be part of our holy war. Without OB, we could be locked out for good.

Kaitzilla · May 12, 2012

shulec said:
Genghigawa losing Easttown is a problem. We need to get missionary 7 and Patton Caravel down to the "Centertown" site, settle, infect and liberate. If we lose this location, we may not be able to spread to Genghi. He has to keep Easttown for ~10 more turns to be part of our holy war. Without OB, we could be locked out for good.

Ya, infecting Centertown and giving Ghenghigawa a 2nd Hindu city might be prudent before we declare on Hatty.

@Mabraham - The reason I am asking for a halt in the turnset is that there might be something wrong with our understanding of teleport mechanics since the Moses plan should have worked. Is there any way to tell if the South_AI city popped borders to eliminate our barb occupied neutral tile?

shulec · May 12, 2012

Patton can drop a missionary off at Centertown location, then proceed to Huayna's coast. He can see the cultural border to see if is popped in four turns (after moving on T149) On T150, we can see the tile if borders did not pop.

Kaitzilla · May 12, 2012

shulec said:
Patton can drop a missionary off at Centertown location, then proceed to Huayna's coast. He can see the cultural border to see if is popped in four turns (after moving on T149) On T150, we can see the tile if borders did not pop.

Hmm, it seems the Inca completed Sistene's Chappel in 700AD. Maybe that caused a border pop.

Missionary 9 spreading in Akhetaten this turn seems like a great idea, 100% chance of success.

The ice up north confirms that a galley won't be enough to spread to the North_AI. A galleon will be needed. We won't research Astronomy ourselves in time. We would have to steal from Liz if she researched it by T160.

The super caravel missionary dropping off the missionary for Centertown to give to Ghenghigawa would seal up Ghenghigawa being infected. Confirming a border pop would also ease teleportation concerns.

shulec · May 12, 2012

I clearly don't understand the mechanics that govern when a civ will take a city. Island II looks close enough to Huaynagawa that he should take it. Is it financial? Is there something we can exploit here?

shulec · May 12, 2012

Kaitzilla said:
Hmm, it seems the Inca completed Sistene's Chappel in 700AD. Maybe that caused a border pop.

Also +2

for terrace.

SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Lord Croissant

Deity

Deity

Lord Croissant

Deity

Grrrrr... I AM the force!

Grrrrr... I AM the force!

Lord Croissant

Grrrrr... I AM the force!

Lord Croissant

Grrrrr... I AM the force!

Grrrrr... I AM the force!

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