SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

[mabraham]

From Babylon:
1) On t152, SoD moves to 1-W of Akkad
2) On t153, SoD moves to 1-NW of Akkad with .7 movement remaining
3) Still t153, we close (and open) Borders with Hammuragawa, teleporting SoD to 1-W of Nobamba
4) Still t153, with .7 movement left, SoD moves to 2-N of Nabamba
5) On t154, SoD moves to 1-SW of Shakagawa's Copper with .7 movement remaining
6) Still t154, perform DoW of Shakagawa, teleporting SoD to 2-S+1-W of Numidian
7) Still t154, with Roads on 2-S+1-W and 1-S+2-W of Numidian, move 2-W (without Roads it takes two turns) onto Grassland
8) On t155, SoD moves onto PH 1-S+2-E of Bulawayo
9) On t156, SoD moves onto GHF 1-E of Bulawayo
10) On t157, Spy in Bulawayo performs "Support City Revolt" mission (2 attempts).
11) Still t157, SoD bombards?/barrages/captures Bulawayo.

Sun Tzu Wu

Looks good, if we can have one worker improving SBB and another doing these roads in Cyrus's culture. I guess that means we can only scout Shaka's stack some of the time, which is OK - particularly if the stack isn't going anywhere. Around T149 we head for one of these forests, and T150-4 finishes the roads.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Plans are starting to look pretty good now .

All I can add is that we should probably hold onto Engineering in regards to Hammarugawa. We might need it to bribe him into war against Shaka T153 T154 if he makes peace with Elizagawa so we can reopen borders with him after the teleport trick. Hamma and Liz have been at war 28 turns now. Them staying at war 10 more turns would be pretty lucky. I think I saw Hamma's huge SoD traveling up through Hatty's lands recently.

We must have open borders with Hammarugawa if we are to capture GhostTown after declaring on Shakagawa T154. I envision our unit standing inside GhostTown when the Hamma->Shaka teleport happens T153, then moving to just outside GhostTown when the borders reopen.

If all goes according to plan, I still think we should hold onto Engineering, so we can bribe Hammarugawa to make peace with Shakagawa T164 to keep GhostTown out of Hamma's hands between T164-T165.


Flipping Shaka to Hindu is probably a good idea. About the worst case scenario is the Team_AI declaring on us in the T154-T164 timeframe, as there is no way to threaten them into talking peace. Do we need to put much espionage slider onto Shaka after Engineering?

I'll doublecheck the teleport math that Mabraham did.

 

[bcool]

If you want to whip units on T145, you must do so before switching to caste system.

Likewise if you want to whip on T146 you must delay the switch to caste and theocracy.

In Delhi at least you could whip the Maceman on T144 and use OF to build a pikeman if you finish engineering by T146. Or you could be another macemen perhaps on T146 which is preferrable to another catapult I think.

I need to look at the backup teleport from Shaka Bacon Bit, I'm pretty sure it won't work if it is a galleon since it could teleport to ocean tiles. I think the teleport only works if it is a galley...

It looks like we will definitely need the fort if a galleon is going to teleport how we want there. We might need 2 workers up there... mine is 4 turns 2 chops is 6 turns, fort 9 turn?

 

[mabraham]

Plans are starting to look pretty good now .

All I can add is that we should probably hold onto Engineering in regards to Hammarugawa. We might need it to bribe him into war against Shaka T153 T154 if he makes peace with Elizagawa so we can reopen borders with him after the teleport trick. Hamma and Liz have been at war 28 turns now. Them staying at war 10 more turns would be pretty lucky. I think I saw Hamma's huge SoD traveling up through Hatty's lands recently.

If we close borders with Hammu T153 per the current teleport plan, and he is at peace with Liz, and won't give us OB immediately (at Friendly?), he'll give us OB again only when we share a war. So that's T154 if we can bribe him to DOW Shaka, or T156 from Holy War. Either way, we'd then have to race him to Hammsville and GhostTown, which might be bad.

We must have open borders with Hammarugawa if we are to capture GhostTown after declaring on Shakagawa T154. I envision our unit standing inside GhostTown when the Hamma->Shaka teleport happens T153, then moving to just outside GhostTown when the borders reopen.

STW plans those units to be travelling from the soon-to-be-aborted Akhetaten stack, so maybe not that elegant.

If all goes according to plan, I still think we should hold onto Engineering, so we can bribe Hammarugawa to make peace with Shakagawa T164 to keep GhostTown out of Hamma's hands between T164-T165.

Seems a decent idea - we have no plans at the moment to give Hammu Eng.

Flipping Shaka to Hindu is probably a good idea. About the worst case scenario is the Team_AI declaring on us in the T154-T164 timeframe, as there is no way to threaten them into talking peace. Do we need to put much espionage slider onto Shaka after Engineering?

Base mission cost for the revolt is 650 (per GlobalDefines.xml). Many of the modifiers will not apply, e.g. religion, trade routes, culture. Distance will be +50% (iDistance is measured at 32, maxPlotDistance is 64 on this map, so (32+64)/64). Spending will be something like -23% (I looked at Toku a few turns back for an indication) and probably more in our favour as we keep spending. Spy fortification should be -50%. So 650 * 1.5 * 0.77 * .5 is 375 for the city revolt, and another handful for the flip. So that'll be more than a few turns of espionage on Shaka, as well as one on Liz.

So if we have a couple of hundred EPs on Shaka by T153 when the first spy has arrived in Bulawayo, then we should be able to measure our actual modifier ratio and will then be good to compute how many more we'll need before the revolt mission is needed T157ish. Can you make that a PPP target, please STW?

I'll doublecheck the teleport math that Mabraham did.

Appreciated if you do check.

 

[mabraham]

Also, once Hammu has Feudalism, he should have all the necessary pre-requisites to be gifted up to Banking. I think we should do that to get our diplo insurance, and we may as well pick up HBR, Aesthetics and anything deeper along the Aesthetics tree that he might have to give to us.

 

[bcool]

PPP needs a checklist]
suggestions for checklist

check if Toku and Hatsegawa have OB each turn (and Shaka and Hammuragawa)
check if anyone has teched feudalism (do we want to immediately give Genghis banking?)

 

[mabraham]

PPP needs a checklist]
suggestions for checklist

check if Toku and Hatsegawa have OB each turn (and Shaka and Hammuragawa)
check if anyone has teched feudalism (do we want to immediately give Genghis banking?)

Yep, and teching up Genghis seems to have merit as insurance against holy war failure combined with some other problem.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

PPP needs a checklist]
suggestions for checklist

check if Toku and Hatsegawa have OB each turn (and Shaka and Hammuragawa)
check if anyone has teched feudalism (do we want to immediately give Genghis banking?)

Is this a stop playing and consult with Team checklist? Otherwise, what should I do if they check out true?

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[bcool]

This would just be something to do at the end of each turn, it is important to know about changes in OB and potentially important to give Genghis Banking asap.

If Toku and Hatsegawa OB with each other we would want to build some defense since Hatsegawa might start coming for us if they did.

Likewise with Shaka and Hammuragawa.

you don't want to be caught by surprise. I don't think you would need to stop.

Other things on the checklist might be
doublecheck city builds against PPP
Team AI adopts mercantilism (but that would be an announcement)
Check to see if Cyrusgawa goes into WHEOOHRN (or any other AI who isn't involved in a war or already in WHEOOHRN--and remember the little red fist icon isn't working properly)

 

[WastinTime]

I doublechecked the Shaka teleports. All looks good.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Suggest Genghis spy 1 head for Bulawayo. Not sure if he arrives in time, but his scouting might be useful.

We already have 2 Spies arriving in Bulawayo in the range t150-t152. Spy 1 will continue exploring Genghisgawa, but will not attempt to go to Bulawayo; It will barely make it to Bulawayo around the time of its capture, assuming all plots there have roads; too late to help with "Support City Revolt" mission.

Spy 7 back to Hammsville, which provides cheaper espionage flip to Hinduism, now that we have decided to gift this to Shaka before the war. Hope Shaka doesn't get into economic difficulty!

Changed PPP so Spy 4 stays in Hammsville and Hammsville completes a new Spy ready on t148, so it will get 5t fortification too before using t154.

You can use the espionage display to measure how many EPs we need to see Liz research, and perhaps juggle accordingly. A little extra is OK, because she's doubtless spending on us, too.

That is already covered in the Espionage part of the PPP as implied means of knowing when to switch Espionage from Shakagawa -> Elizagawa -> Shakagawa. I'd prefer to start with Elizagawa until we see her Research goal, because we only get 16E on Shakgawa before switching to Elizagawa when we start using the Espionage slider at maximum we can sustain.

All your other points have been added to the PPP without comment.

All "Turn Checklist" items were also added to the PPP (near the end).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

t143 - t153 PPP: Draft #3

Changes from Draft #2 are in this DarkRed font. Note that with new SoD double teleport plan we have 1t extra to get to Babylon at the end of t151 rather than t150; this allows building 3-4 more units, if we stretch Engineering completion to 4t at Research 40% on average plus a few citizens switched to higher commerce; no switch to CS, due to needing Slavery until t146; Caste System switch delayed until t150.

Cities (F1):

Delhi (no Engineer):

t143: starts Macemen organically
t144: starts Crossbowman organically
t145: completes Macemen (5 XP) organically
t146: completes Crossbowman (5 XP) organically
t147-t153: builds Wealth

Deergold City:

t143: starts Macemen
t144: starts Crossbowman
t145: whips Macemen (5 XP)
t146: whips Crossbowman (5 XP)
t147-t148: starts Spy using OF from Maceman/Crossbowman builds (spare to be used as needed or in LizTown)
t149-t153: builds Wealth

SheepTown:

t143-t153: builds Wealth

CowTown:

t143-t144: starts/whips Crossbowman (3 XP)
t145: builds Catapult (5 XP) or Spearman (due to lack of Hammers) via OF from CB
t146-t153: builds Wealth

PigsGem:

t143-t144: starts/whips Catapult (0 XP)
t145-t146: starts/whips Catapult (2 XP)
t147-t148: start/whip Hindu Missionary
t149-t153: builds Wealth

Crabsville:

t143-t147: builds Wealth
t148-t149: starts/whips Courthouse
t150-t153: builds Wealth

Island:

t143-t153: builds Wealth

Hamsville:

t143: starts Catapult
t144: starts Spy
t145: whips Catapult (2 XP)
t146: whips Spy (stays in Hammsville)
t147-t153: builds Wealth

FishTown:

t143-t153: builds Wealth

Shaka Bacon Bit:

t143-t153: starts Galley (ETA 17t; needs Worker help)

LizTown:

t143-t153: builds Wealth

Financial (F2) - Currently:

Unit Cost: 28
Unit Supply: 9
City Maintenance: 63
Civic Upkeep: 45
Inflation: 23
Total Expenses: 168

We will be adding 10 units in 4t, so Unit Cost will increase by 10 to 38. Our SoD will leave our culture by about t148-150 and its 25 units will cost us 10-11 more Unit Supply, increasing from 9 to 21-22. We plan to regrow citizens whipped in t144-t146, so City Maintenance and Civic Upkeep should stay about the same, ignoring Civics changes.

Civics (F3):

NO t145 Switch to Caste System (low Commerce citizens -> Merchants)

t145: Switch to Theocracy (+2 XP) Vassalage doesn't provide an extra promotion and its 10 Wpt savings doesn't match +15 Cpt and 11.5 Hpt of Bureaucracy.

t150: Switch to Caste System (low Commerce citizens -> Merchants)

Foreign (F4):

All Civs except Mansagawa, Huayanagawa, Cyrusgawa, Shakagawa and Genghigawa are involved in a Holy War against Elizagawa.

Genghigawa is at war with Tokugawa.

We will perform small low probababity begs from Hammuragawa (10W), and Tokugawa (10W) turn 143 or 144, so the Peace Treaty ends before our proposed t145 Holy War vote.

Resource Trades: Will trade extra resources for best Wpt. Will not cancel trades until we get +2 sharing resources bonus, keep one trade to prevent Diplomacy decay.

None of the x-gawas have adopted Mercantilism

None of the x-gawas have Engineering yet. Mansagawa and Huayanagawa do not yet have Theology. Hammuragawa will trade Aesthetics and Horseback Riding.

Give Guilds and Banking to Hammuragawa when he completes Feudalism; Get Aesthetics and Horseback Riding and Wealth in trade
Give Guilds and Banking to Genghisgawa when he completes Feudalism; Get Aesthetics and Horseback Riding and Wealth in trade

Military (F5):

All military units (5 Macemen, 2 Crossbowmen, 3 Spearmen -> Pikemen, 1 Swordsman, 3 Axemen and 7 Catapults) in our main cultural area (including those built in 4t) will immediately move to Babylon with ETA of t150 or t151.

2 Axemen at 1S+2W of Thebes will await the arrival of Moses for the Moses Teleport Maneuver in t146.

All military units near Akhataten, except 2 XP Swordsman and 2 XP Axeman, will wait in Satsuma until the Moses Teleport Maneuver. If it fails, these units will capture Akhetaten as a Hindu city gift to Huayanagawa.

2 XP Swordsman and 2 XP Axeman will move to recapture GhostTown and Hammsville respectively (arriving no later than t152, capturing t154 unopposed); Axeman/Swordsman to capture GhostTown will wait in the city until t153 close/open of Borders to Hammuragawa, then moves 1-SW still t153, ready to capture GhostTown t154 after the DoW.

Axeman in Shakagawa scouts Bulawayo; joins our SoD after DoW teleport.

Caravels:

George Patton and loaded Hindu Missionary wait for open border with Genghisgawa and Hindu Missionary moves to Shaka Bacon Bit.

Traveler moves to near Galley chain area to help transport Missionaries, maybe?

Trireme Argos disbands!

2 Galleys form Galley chain between PigsGems and Nippur for last military builds in CowTown and Delhi.

Scout: disbands.

Settlers:

Settler 16 will remain in position (possibly the only access to Elizagawa for military victories) until just before trying the Galley teleport.

Moses moves to 1-S+2-E of Thebes, teleports to 7-E of Thebes and settles there t146.

Settler 17 will found City to provide +2 Cpt in every city; builds Wealth (too late to finish anything without Slavery).

Workers:

Fritz: moves to Shaka Bacon Bit to build Grassland Mine and chop Forest and possibly build Fort 1-SE of Shaka Bacon Bit as Galley canal teleoprt launch pad.

Karl: checks and completes 2 Roads 2-S+1-W and 1-S+2-W of Numidian; goes back to find/shadow Shakagawa's stack; after DoW teleport (next turn set) goes to help with Shaka Bacon Bit improvements/chops.

Eiffel: Moves home to build farms, chop forests, etc.

Hoover: builds Road 1-N of FishTown, builds Grassland Hill Mine 1-NW of FishTown.

Faraday: builds Banana Planatation, 2 Grassland Hill Mines near Crabsville.

Island Worker: builds 1t of farm 1-W of Sheep, Sheep Pasture, GH Mine 1-N of Sheep, then other Mines and Farms.

Hindu Missionaries:

One aboard George Patton, see Caravel George Patton above.

9 attaches to Moses for teleport.

10 follows and attaches to SoD.[/COLOR]

New (PigsGems) 11 follows and attaches to SoD. Gets to Babylon by t151 easily.

Spies:

1 explores GenghisGawa's unrevealed Culture.

5 moves to LizTown and waits.

4 waits in Hammsville until needed to convert Shakagawa to Hinduism just before the DoW (priority 1).

7 moves to Bulawayo as primary Spy for Support City Revolt mission t164 or earlier (Spy arrives by t151).

8 moves to Bulawayo as secondary Spy for Support City Revolt mission t164 or earlier (Spy arrives on t152).

Technolgy (F6):

Complete Engineering in 4t (t147) via turns of 00% Research, 100% Research and 80% Research.

Next (t148-t153): Paper at Research 00% (Espionage maximum possible)

Religion (F7):

Shaka Bacon bit and Island are only cities lacking Hinduism.

Victory Conditions (F8):

RL DV ASAP:

Gandhi: 96
Hatsegawa: 9
Cyrusgawa: 8
Tokugawa: 7
Hammuragawa: 3 (Will vote for us)
Shakagawa: 1
Genghisgawa: 1
Mansagawa: none
Huayanagawa: none
Elizagawa: none

Ratio is already 96/125 = we exceed 75% by a few percent. After spreading Hinduism to Mansagawa, Huayanagawa, and Elizagawa we should be well under 75%, not including the planned whips in 2t.

Resolutions:

t145: The Apostolic Palace Resident Election.

t155: Declare war on the infidels (Shakagawa).

t165: RL DV.

Corporation (Shift-F7): Coporation not completed yet by any Civ.

Espionage (CRTL-E):

t143-t146: 4 Ept -> Shakagawa

t146-t153: 100% Commerce -> Espionage (100% Wealth on turns when not possible); All Espionage -> Elizagawa until see see her Research goal, then switch to Shakagawa until we have enough for "Switch to Hinduism" and Bulwayo "Support City Revolt" (expensive < 800E base) missions; switch back to Elizagawa for stealing Technologies like Astronomy.

When 2 Spies arrive in Bulawayo in t150-t152, check the actual amount of Espionage needed to complete "Support City Revolt" mission and estimate for 5 turns of Spy fortification.

bcool computed "Hindu conversion" mission in Hammsville to be 87E, but we can't verify that in the real game until the city is given to Shakagawa in t154 right before the DoW.

SoD Teleport Path from Babylon starting Point:

From Babylon:
1) On t152, SoD moves to 1-W of Akkad
2) On t153, SoD moves to 1-NW of Akkad with .7 movement remaining
3) Still t153, we close (and open) Borders with Hammuragawa, teleporting SoD to 1-W of Nobamba
4) Still t153, with .7 movement left, SoD moves to 2-N of Nabamba
5) On t154, SoD moves to 1-SW of Shakagawa's Copper with .7 movement remaining
6) Still t154, perform DoW of Shakagawa, teleporting SoD to 2-S+1-W of Numidian
7) Still t154, with Roads on 2-S+1-W and 1-S+2-W of Numidian, move 2-W (without Roads it takes two turns) onto Grassland
8) On t155, SoD moves onto PH 1-S+2-E of Bulawayo
9) On t156, SoD moves onto GHF 1-E of Bulawayo
10) On t157, Spy in Bulawayo performs "Support City Revolt" mission (2 attempts).
11) Still t157, SoD bombards?/barrages/captures Bulawayo.

Turn Checklist:

check if Toku and Hatsegawa have OB each turn
check if Shaka and Hammuragawa have OB each turn
check if anyone has teched feudalism (Give Hammuragawa or Genghis Guilds and Banking when possible)
doublecheck city builds against PPP
Team AI adopts mercantilism (but that would be an announcement)
Check to see if Cyrusgawa goes into WHEOOHRN (or any other AI who isn't involved in a war or already in WHEOOHRN--and remember the little red fist icon isn't working properly)

Stopping Criteria:
Team DOWs us.
Hammu goes to peace with Liz.
Shaka DOWs someone
Shaka closes OB with us
Someone DOWs us
Axes near Thebes see Vilcabamba pop its borders (need at least to re-plan the military to take Akhe and still be able to re-take GT and Hammsville on schedule; also re-plan missionaries)
Moses gift fails somehow


Please let me know of any corrections or additions. Since this is the third draft of the PPP, there should be very few isssues with it, but please speak your mind about it anyway.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I will wait until a vast majority of those that contributed to the PPP's creation and revision have commented on and approved it, before I start playing.

I would like to start the first 3t plus the Moses teleport in about two hours from now (17:45 UTC/GMT), if that's possible without jeopardizing our game unnecessarily.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[bcool]

Please DO NOT beg Hatsegawa, if the Moses plan fails we need to go to war with her. I would rather make sure we have the Southern AI taken care of Hinduism wise than delay that backup plan for a 20 gold beg.

Give Guilds and Banking to Genghisgawa if he completes feudalism too. (sorry you have this in the PPP later, but you put give it to Hammuragawa earlier)

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Please DO NOT beg Hatsegawa, if the Moses plan fails we need to go to war with her. I would rather make sure we have the Southern AI taken care of Hinduism wise than delay that backup plan for a 20 gold beg.

Give Guilds and Banking to Genghisgawa if he completes feudalism too.

OK, I'll remove the Hastegawa beg (should have caught that myself) in the original post.

Genghisgawa Guilds and Banking gift is mentioned in the Turn Checklist (I also just added this to the Foreign section of the PPP).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Added a few corrections to PPP Draft #3 post <http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11491258&postcount=3492>; see Reasons at bottom of post.

I do not plan to make additional corrections, but I will post another warning if I do.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Kaitzilla]

Teleport math looks good.

Don't have time to go over the latest PPP in detail, but I agree that playing 3 turns to see if the Moses plan works to infect the South_AI while streaming units up to Babylon should be what we are going for. Pausing the stack in Babylon for a turn to wait for more units to arrive should be ok later on.

I will attempt a world builder test game tonight to recreate the Hamma->Shaka teleport since the values are so close and the jump is so vital to get right. Will also work on the galley/galleon teleport math since Bcool pointed out galleons can teleport onto ocean tiles. It shouldn't delay the turnset since we are running out of time.

 

[mabraham]

Looks good STW, play when ready.

 

[mabraham]

OSS have posted a T165 save, so we're still on track for a gold if all goes to plan.

 

[shulec]

ppp looks good to me.