SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

[bcool]

I don't really get it. Even if we stop Poly researching, thinking Buddism is a reference can be a wrong reference. If the AI guns for Poly first. Without Myst. an average AI takes something around 6-7 turns for Myst. and ~9 turns for poly.
Adding those means ~ 16 turns < 22 turns (our Masonry and Poly).

I know Buddhism is an imperfect indicator for when hinduism might go. If the world is filled with religious focused AI, then it seems likely one will go for poly and the other meditation. And since meditation is cheaper, you would assume (perhaps incorrectly) that buddhism would go a turn or 2 earlier than hinduism).

And seeing the numbers on myst + poly for an AI suggests that Masonry and Poly is clearly too risky even with the imperfect indicator of buddism.

I suppose we should make a few tests to be thorough. Fill the world with religious focused leaders leading civilizations without mysticism and see when Buddhism and Hinduism are founded.

 

[DanF5771]

Yes, a shrine doubles the chance of relegious auto spread, due to integer divisions even a tiny bit more I believe.

If we need to found Hindu in Delhi then moving northwards (on the Stone?) for a central shrine would be preferable, since the chance of auto spread decreases with distance from the shrine.

As we are forced into the early religion, we might as well make the most of it ... thus the early GP. Due to the Philo trait, the GS for an academy won't come that many turns later, right?

 

[Manco Capac]

I suppose we should make a few tests to be thorough. Fill the world with religious focused leaders leading civilizations without mysticism and see when Buddhism and Hinduism are founded.

Man...I am going to lose the challenger series...SGOTM...obsession!
I am going to make tests right now and then put it in this post.
DanF provided us zealots, then shall be the opposing leaders and I will take away all their knowledge of Gods.

If we need to found Hindu in Delhi then moving northwards (on the Stone?) for a central shrine would be preferable, since the chance of auto spread decreases with distance from the shrine.

Ha! Stone settling is good after all. I mentioned about centralizing the cap earlier.
Just kidding.

As we are forced into the early religion, we might as well make the most of it ... thus the early GP. Due to the Philo trait, the GS for an academy won't come that many turns later, right?

You are right about it, but (always one), when 1000 GPP reached, we make a jump, thus less GPs, decreased rate until 3000 GP.
If we are gunning culture, better be careful with what we wish for.
If we are going for a large war campaign, we might save many GScientists for Astro and maybe Engineering given we don't have fishing.

=============================================

Quite frustrating. Regenerate a map means all tech changes are lost. But I can't use the same map and new random seed, we need many maps to pinipoint true variability.
I use different maps and new random seed. I know some types of values are retained with regenerate map like personalities in random personalities...

List:
*According to the new rule, all dates hereunder are the reported dates, not the actual founding dates by the AI, which happened the earlier turn*

Test #1 : Buddism ==> T15 - 3400 BC

Hinduism ==> T17 - 3320 BC​

Test #2 : Buddism ==> T14 - 3440 BC

Hinduism ==> T17 - 3320 BC​

Test #3 : Buddism ==> T15 - 3400 BC

Hinduism ==> T16 - 3360 BC​

Test #4 : Buddism ==> T13 - 3480 BC (Zara had an oasis tile in first culture ring)

Hinduism ==> T19 - 3240 BC​

Test #5 : Buddism ==> T13 - 3480 BC (New map with Zara and first ring oasis )

Hinduism ==> T17 - 3320 BC​

Test #6 : Buddism ==> T15 - 3400 BC (Izzy)

Hinduism ==> T22 - 3120 BC (Mansa)​

Test #7 : Buddism ==> T14 - 3440 BC (Mansa)

Hinduism ==> T22 - 3120 BC (Hatty)​

Test #8 : Buddism ==> T13 - 3480 BC [Izzy with double oasis in first culture ring o_O]

Hinduism ==> T17 - 3320 BC (Saladin)​

Test #9 : Buddism ==> T15 - 3400 BC

Hinduism ==> T16 - 3360 BC (Mansa without FIN used)​

Test #10 : Buddism ==> T14 - 3440 BC (Zara)

Hinduism ==> T16 - 3360 BC (Mehmed letting his city grows on FPs)​

=================================================

Not so strong Conclusion:

Earliest Buddism date is 3480 BC (T13) reported to human for an AI without Myst.
Earliest Hinduism date is 3360 BC (T16) reported to human for an AI without Myst.
Remainst to test the case a FIN AI working an oasis gunning for Hind.
Maybe 3400 BC (T15) Hindu exist?
Izzy, Zara and MM are terrible zealots just like DanF presented in his list.

 

[shulec]

I want to present an alternative opening that will offer improved diplomacy.

I think this is a weak strategy, but I think it should be mentioned anyway.

Poly=>Agr=>Mas=>Monotheism.

We can build missionaries with OR and try to build a religious block. This relies on buddhism being founded far away. We then spread Hinduism to at least 4 neighbors. We found Judaism to prevent others from founding it. We can further deny Christianity if we want to get theology first. We may be able to get 3 of our 4 religious allies to vote for us over the largest of them for a religious victory. Obviously we would need to get our missionaries to the other four non-Hindu AI. We could have problems with one of our Hindu allies founding Confuscionism/Taoism/Islamism.

This approach would not allow worker stealing.

This approach requires a strong early commitment, which could be disasterous.

 

[shulec]

This is probably not useful, but I will mention it anyway. (This tip is best used with goody huts on) I bring it up since you guys are considering not teching Poly first.

We can accumulate beakers toward any tech until the end of turn 5. They do not have to be committed to a specific tech if you "unchose" the tech you are researching each turn. You will be asked to chose a tech at the beginning of each turn, then click on the tech bar at the top of the screen and don't choose any techs. At the begining of turn 6, the Gov choses a tech for you (usually archery or hunting) and irreversibly commits the beakers to that tech.

 

[shulec]

I spy with my little eye:
the northern river seems to bend around the tile 2NE of Warrior/Settler which also has a forest, like this: 1st attachment.

the zealots who will give us a -4 for different religion have an xml-value of iDifferentReligionAttitudeChange = -2.
Here they are sorted by their ContactRand:CONTACT_RELIGION_PRESSURE, also added the MemoryAttitudePercent:MEMORY_DENIED_RELIGION: 2nd attachment

I understand the game rules force us to deny all demands to convert to different religions or adopt the free religion civic. The same holds for the UN-Vote.
What if an AI forces us out of Hinduism via Spy Mission??

I think I understand the values in the table in the second two columns, but I may not. Can someone explain them to me? Thanks.

 

[Manco Capac]

I think I understand the values in the table in the second two columns, but I may not. Can someone explain them to me? Thanks.

The first is CONTACT_RELIGION_PRESSURE, which means the random chance to get solicited by the AI for conversion to their crappy belief. The number represents the number of faces a virtual dice would have. I think you have 1 chance out of 50 (2%) to get bothered by her spanish majesty to convert.

The second is MEMORY_DENIED_RELIGION, which means how long they will remember your heathen act (refusal). If you got the lucky shot, they suddenly forget and the diplo hit vanished. Why negative, I have no clue.

 

[WastinTime]

Checking in! Wow, 67 posts already. Yikes, I'm having flashbacks to my last SG.

Thanks for the warm welcome. And thanks for the invite, shulec.

 

[mabraham]

frogdude says he'll give this game a miss.

 

[Manco Capac]

frogdude says he'll give this game a miss.

Stay in contact with him for the next one, we are not gonna let him go so easily.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I'm heading out of town soon and will be back around January 28th.


Cyas!

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I want to present an alternative opening that will offer improved diplomacy.

I think this is a weak strategy, but I think it should be mentioned anyway.

Poly=>Agr=>Mas=>Monotheism.

We can build missionaries with OR and try to build a religious block. This relies on buddhism being founded far away. We then spread Hinduism to at least 4 neighbors. We found Judaism to prevent others from founding it. We can further deny Christianity if we want to get theology first. We may be able to get 3 of our 4 religious allies to vote for us over the largest of them for a religious victory. Obviously we would need to get our missionaries to the other four non-Hindu AI. We could have problems with one of our Hindu allies founding Confuscionism/Taoism/Islamism.

This approach would not allow worker stealing.

This approach requires a strong early commitment, which could be disasterous.

Until we better understand SGOTM-15's setup, Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory is probably the best victory to pursue, given we are forced to found a religion (Hinduism), convert to it the same turn and remain converted until the game ends.

I like shulec's plan in principle though not necessarily its details. We should spread Hinduism to all AI opponents and improve our Diplomacy to have +4 or more advantage over our RL DV opponent.

We can use bribes and espionage if necessary to convert all AI opponents to Hinduism, especially 5 turns before the RL DV vote. We will gain the shared religion diplomatic bonus instead of negative diplomacy for having a heathen state religion.

Two Pronged Victory Condition Grand Strategy:

In case the RL DV loses its appeal or takes longer then expected, we can switch our Grand Strategy from a RL DV main focus to a Cultural Victory main focus. Founding many religions will help us achieve either Victory Condition. Given close access to Stone and Marble, spamming Great Wonders will be part of any Cultural Victory Grand Strategy. We will have to build a Cultural Victory foundation from turn 0 on though.

The only Victory Condition that isn't crippled by neilmeister's settings is the Cultural Victory. That BTW is one of WastinTime's best Victory Conditions! I'm very pleased that we have him on our Team!

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[mabraham]

Until we better understand SGOTM-15's setup, Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory is probably the best victory to pursue, given we are forced to found a religion (Hinduism), convert to it the same turn and remain converted until the game ends.

I like shulec's plan in principle though not necessarily its details. We should spread Hinduism to all AI opponents and improve our Diplomacy to have +4 or more advantage over our RL DV opponent.

We can use bribes and espionage if necessary to convert all AI opponents to Hinduism, especially 5 turns before the RL DV vote. We will gain the shared religion diplomatic bonus instead of negative diplomacy for having a heathen state religion.

Two Pronged Victory Condition Grand Strategy:

In case the RL DV loses its appeal or takes longer then expected, we can switch our Grand Strategy from a RL DV main focus to a Cultural Victory main focus. Founding many religions will help us achieve either Victory Condition. Given close access to Stone and Marble, spamming Great Wonders will be part of any Cultural Victory Grand Strategy. We will have to build a Cultural Victory foundation from turn 0 on though.

The only Victory Condition that isn't crippled by neilmeister's settings is the Cultural Victory. That BTW is one of WastinTime's best Victory Conditions! I'm very pleased that we have him on our Team!

Sun Tzu Wu

That sounds like a reasonable approach, so long as we plan for most of our GArtists to come from some place away from our wonders. The Kashi generates culture too, btw.

Details
Move warrior NW in case the stone looks really good, then expect move to marble to settle. Build two warriors and a worker while teching Poly->Ag, preferably timing the worker and Ag to finish together (but a few turns improving the river Gmine before Ag won't hurt). Another warrior or two to grow to size 2, then settler to settle on/near stone after Masonry completes. Attempt SH there (probably get fail gold) while teching Wheel to get stone back to the capital to attempt TGW. Then Mids and Oracle->CoL while setting down to spamming some cities.

Pros
TGW takes care of barb defence. Religion spread hopefully takes care of AI defence.

Cons
We do get out 3-4 more warriors for scouting, but we haven't invested in AH or BW tech for an early rush if that would have been good. There's a point after the worker and after the settler complete where we might switch plans, however. If there's not enough land for us to settle the 6-9/10 cities you want for Culture VC, we might have to consider war, or missionary spam for RL VC.

This is actually pretty flexible. If we've got many near neighbours, then we'll have the option of worker stealing or mass conversion. If we're semi-isolated, then we can secure an economy with the wonders while expanding.

 

[DanF5771]

Hmmmm, not so good news:
From a technical viewpoint, the mapmakers can design the 4000 BC situation of AI tech choice AND tech progress ad libitum!
This is easily possible via python commands in debug mode.
Set tech choice by: gc.getPlayer(1).pushResearch(2,true)
Set tech progress by: gc.getTeam(1).changeResearchProgress(2,50,1)
In Tachy's test game these 2 commands let Ramesses of Korea start with 50 beakers in Polytheism -> he will found Hindu on turn 6/7 3760 BC.

Or
Set tech choice by: gc.getPlayer(4).pushResearch(2,true)
Set tech progress by: gc.getTeam(4).changeResearchProgress(0,30,4)
Mansa of Romans starts with 30 beakers in Mysticism and has chosen Polytheism as 2nd tech -> he will found Hindu on turn 13/14 3480 BC.

 

[mabraham]

Hmmmm, not so good news:
From a technical viewpoint, the mapmakers can design the 4000 BC situation of AI tech choice AND tech progress ad libitum!
This is easily possible via python commands in debug mode.
Set tech choice by: gc.getPlayer(1).pushResearch(2,true)
Set tech progress by: gc.getTeam(1).changeResearchProgress(2,50,1)
In Tachy's test game these 2 commands let Ramesses of Korea start with 50 beakers in Polytheism -> he will found Hindu on turn 6/7 3760 BC.

Or
Set tech choice by: gc.getPlayer(4).pushResearch(2,true)
Set tech progress by: gc.getTeam(4).changeResearchProgress(0,30,4)
Mansa of Romans starts with 30 beakers in Mysticism and has chosen Polytheism as 2nd tech -> he will found Hindu on turn 13/14 3480 BC.

... or we could have AIs that start with Mysticism which have been programmed to do something other than Poly first.

Any way you look at it, I don't think there's a case for trying to sneak Agriculture through before Poly.

 

[DanF5771]

The second is MEMORY_DENIED_RELIGION, which means how long they will remember your heathen act (refusal). If you got the lucky shot, they suddenly forget and the diplo hit vanished. Why negative, I have no clue.

That would be the MemoryDecay:MEMORY_DENIED_RELIGION which is set to 50 (= 2% chance) across all leaders. The MemoryAttitudePercent:MEMORY_DENIED_RELIGION however determines the magnitude of the diplo demerit you get for a denial. -200 means an instant -2 "You refused to accept our stat religion". The majority of the leaders will only give the normal -1 due to a value of -100. Gandhi's value is 0 (too bad, that's us ). 6 leaders show up with -200 (Cathy, Kublai, Louis, Qin, Sury and Toku), among them are a few of the named zealots ... we ought to try our best to keep their religion out of our lands to avoid these requests.

 

[Manco Capac]

^
Lesson learnt: Never try to emulate those who are best at it.
Anyways, thanks for the clarification.

 

[mabraham]

The save will be up in two days. We'll want to do some more discussion once we get it, but we should know who's leading off. O captain my captain?

 

[bcool]

Okay random draw for active players turns. I think we will keep the turnsets to 10 turns as we did last game. That seemed to work well. Perhaps a bit too few in the beginning and maybe a bit too much at the end, so a good compromise. And it is easier to keep it constant throughout the game.

Walter_Wolf ... UP FIRST
mabraham ... on deck
WastinTime ... in the hole
Kaitzilla ... waiting
Tachywaxon ... waiting
shulec ... waiting
bcool ... waiting
Sun Tzu Wu ... waiting

Please let me know if you want to change your randomly chosen play order position. And remember you can always pass or delay a turnset, just let us know as soon as you can.

I also could go first to model the new planning method, but it won't really reach its true potential until we have more info about the game to make informed decisions about the best grand strategy.

It would be awesome if several of us could play a test game out to 500 AD or so (or to a victory condition) to see what the various game options and hindu restriction means in real play.

I could probably do this this weekend, at the same time we plan, debate and play the opening turnset.

And DanF5771 you can jump in anytime and play a turnset if you so desire


Sounds like Poly first based on the flexibility of the mapmaker DanF exposed.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

I have the honour of opening the game here . Thanks bcool's RNG machine (whatever that is).

I guess it's best to have a warrior move as a 1st thing to do, and then decide on the settling position. So, I would move the warrior in the desired direction, post a screenshot of the revealed area, and make some fog gazing (I wonder if it's the right word). I'd continue (start actually) the turnset after a fruitful debate.

Warrior movement options:

1. move 1N1E - probably reveals the river that flows near the stone tile. Important if we wish to settle there.
2. move 1S1E - doesn't reveal much if the tile 2S2E is a G hill (looks like one), but could reveal a resource or something in the potential marble site BFC.
3. move 1S1W - if we are lucky, it might open the view on a 2nd corn tile (maybe it's not a good idea to rely on luck), and a view on the mentioned marble site.
4. move 1N1W - more tiles of the stone site. Not the best option IMO.

Is moving in the 1N, E, W or S directions an option?

Other stuff of interest:

Take screenshots of the
1. Demographics screen,
2. Game settings screen,
3. Victory conditions screen,
4. Info from "mousing over" our score (for tiles count if we get one before settling).

Did I forget anything here.

A mini PPP is due after the warrior moves and the team makes some decisions.

cheers