mabraham
Deity
Interesting. It's looking like the constraint imposed by wanting the AP is that it is not efficient to attempt to bulb Optics.
SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
bcool
Deity
I think we might want a balanced approach similar to WastinTime's game.
I think we want at least 6 cities probably 7 cities and we want more workers.
I think we want to get optics and theology asap, but we also want to have an empire able to crank out triremes prior to researching optics ideally or at the very least able to crank out caravels and missionaries soon after we get optics. So I think that means we want to settle 2 more coastal cities. That will slow our research but I think long term we want these cities developed when we get optics.
I think we want at least 6 cities probably 7 cities and we want more workers.
I think we want to get optics and theology asap, but we also want to have an empire able to crank out triremes prior to researching optics ideally or at the very least able to crank out caravels and missionaries soon after we get optics. So I think that means we want to settle 2 more coastal cities. That will slow our research but I think long term we want these cities developed when we get optics.
Yes, I'm really starting to love Oracle-Delhi. We get an early kashi and then a really really early Theo. Once we are first to Theo there won't be a race to the AP, so if we have to build a few axes and delay it we can. Hindu spreads to my cities like wildfire. I'll bet we get a spread to one of our neighbors in no time. Then the AP can be used to open borders.
These early prophets allow us to run 2 scientists in Delhi because we don't really care what the 3rd GP is.
I got forge-pyramids T84 in DeerGold with all those forests (chopped after mono + math)
This latest test used the Sheep/Corn location (but I didn't use the corn tile)
(Pyramids can be chopped here too which might help steal the corn, but I would rather not. I think this city will need a few axes (as well as granary/library). I want to be ready with either forests or granary(slavery) when Toku comes.
I also like the deer/cow city. It's up fast and will be a good scientist and slavery city.
These early prophets allow us to run 2 scientists in Delhi because we don't really care what the 3rd GP is.
I got forge-pyramids T84 in DeerGold with all those forests (chopped after mono + math)
This latest test used the Sheep/Corn location (but I didn't use the corn tile)
(Pyramids can be chopped here too which might help steal the corn, but I would rather not. I think this city will need a few axes (as well as granary/library). I want to be ready with either forests or granary(slavery) when Toku comes.
I also like the deer/cow city. It's up fast and will be a good scientist and slavery city.
I agree a 4th worker for sure, maybe a 5th.
I also agree we could use a 6th city if we find some seafood in the south/marble. Again, if war comes, I suspect we will forego the 7th city unless it's a Hamm gift city.
I also agree we could use a 6th city if we find some seafood in the south/marble. Again, if war comes, I suspect we will forego the 7th city unless it's a Hamm gift city.
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,920
To avoid GS bulbing Philosophy, one can either avoid Meditation or avoid Code of Laws and Drama. It will be easier to avoid Code of Laws and Drama, wouldn't it?
Thus we can rearch Meditation early and GP bulb Theology early and build The Apostolic Palace early.
Am I missing something?
Sun Tzu Wu
Thus we can rearch Meditation early and GP bulb Theology early and build The Apostolic Palace early.
Am I missing something?
Sun Tzu Wu
bcool
Deity
It is true that you don't bulb philosophy unless you know either drama or code of laws.
I have confirm this though in game tests. So mabraham was mistaken earlier in his confirmation of WastinTime's belief that you bulb philosophy if you research meditation.
The reason you have to avoid meditation in a early astronomy game is that you usually need code of laws (and the caste system civic) to really accelerate the production of great scientists. If you have code of laws you must avoid meditation or you bulb philosophy.
However, if you bulb theology you will bulb paper before you bulb machinery.
You can bulb optics however before you bulb paper.
So we can use a great prophet to build the Kashi
Then we can use a great prophet to bulb Theology (if we know meditation and monotheism)
Which would then force use to use a great scientist to bulb optics.
Their is about a 150 research difference between machinery (1092) and optics (936). So it is preferably to bulb machinery rather than optics.
If we want to bulb machinery we would have to get a great scientist before our 2nd great prophet most likely and research aesthetics, mathematics, iron working, and alphabet. Getting all of that researched before we bulb theology slows down building the AP.
If I understand things correctly WastinTime was able to bulb Machinery in his latest tests and then bulb Theology and build the AP by T103 and then self research optics by T108.
So I don't understand things correctly. Rereading WastinTime post suggests he only bulbed Theology and self researched machinery and optics. If we plan to do this then we can bulb Theology anytime we want.
I have confirm this though in game tests. So mabraham was mistaken earlier in his confirmation of WastinTime's belief that you bulb philosophy if you research meditation.
The reason you have to avoid meditation in a early astronomy game is that you usually need code of laws (and the caste system civic) to really accelerate the production of great scientists. If you have code of laws you must avoid meditation or you bulb philosophy.
However, if you bulb theology you will bulb paper before you bulb machinery.
You can bulb optics however before you bulb paper.
So we can use a great prophet to build the Kashi
Then we can use a great prophet to bulb Theology (if we know meditation and monotheism)
Which would then force use to use a great scientist to bulb optics.
Their is about a 150 research difference between machinery (1092) and optics (936). So it is preferably to bulb machinery rather than optics.
If we want to bulb machinery we would have to get a great scientist before our 2nd great prophet most likely and research aesthetics, mathematics, iron working, and alphabet. Getting all of that researched before we bulb theology slows down building the AP.
So I don't understand things correctly. Rereading WastinTime post suggests he only bulbed Theology and self researched machinery and optics. If we plan to do this then we can bulb Theology anytime we want.
mabraham
Deity
Great, I knew I was forgetting something with the optics bulb. I'm so used to having CoL early, and in that game I bulbed it since I got a 3rd prophet.
In my latest test I posted, you are correct, I only bulbed Theo.
But in my earlier test I did bulb machinery, I had to hold off Theo until T105 which is not acceptable.
Anyway, I still like Oracle-Delhi to get Kashi, Theo fast.
Then we just gamble on getting a scientist 3rd to bulb optics. If not, we research optics manually, no big deal. It will only be 5-6 extra turns, and I don't see it as being in the critical path.
In my latest test I posted, you are correct, I only bulbed Theo.
But in my earlier test I did bulb machinery, I had to hold off Theo until T105 which is not acceptable.
Anyway, I still like Oracle-Delhi to get Kashi, Theo fast.
Then we just gamble on getting a scientist 3rd to bulb optics. If not, we research optics manually, no big deal. It will only be 5-6 extra turns, and I don't see it as being in the critical path.
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,920
If we can be sure of generating a Great Engineer, I would prefer to use it to build The Apostolic Palace. In that case, getting Theology late isn't that bad perhaps, unless the plan was to quickly chop TAP which I somewhat doubt.
Sun Tzu Wu
bcool
Deity
I'm happy with the general plan to bulb Theo and hope for a great scientist from Delhi to bulb optics. (But maybe we want to skip aesthetics and alphabet ... which would eliminate the bulb possibilities but make self teching to optics easier)
We probably could arrange the 3rd great person to come from somewhere else, but being able to run scientists in Delhi is very nice.
I played out a test game which will get optics by T112 with 6 cities (2 coastal, but one is only 1 pop), and one trireme
We might want to settle gems/pigs before sheep/corn/gold. The gems is so much closer to our workers. I was finding it difficult to get sheep/corn/gold up quickly. This is what I did in the test game. I'm not sure what the risk is of not settling gold/sheep quickly might be in the real game, but it would be our 4th city instead of our 3rd city.
I'm not sure where it is best to build the pyramids, nor am I clear on the optimal tech path.
In my test game I realized we could skip aesthetics and alphabet and self tech machinery and optics. I suspect alphabet speeds up the process since we can build research. However, currency might be the better tech. If we plan on self tech machinery and optics, currency and wealth building would be much better than alphabet. Add the fact that there is a good chance we could trade for alphabet and the fact that currency gives us an extra trade route per city (probably just +1 but still...) and I think currency wins.
The great engineer comes too late to build the TAP (T120 is the earliest). I believe that would be too risky. Bulbing Theology allows us to build the AP before T100 (with a few chops). Probably can do significantly better if we really are concerned about it (accelerating the 2nd great prophet by running priest specialists for example and planning a few OF whips and chops). But I really don't think it is worth the sacrifice.
We probably could arrange the 3rd great person to come from somewhere else, but being able to run scientists in Delhi is very nice.
I played out a test game which will get optics by T112 with 6 cities (2 coastal, but one is only 1 pop), and one trireme
We might want to settle gems/pigs before sheep/corn/gold. The gems is so much closer to our workers. I was finding it difficult to get sheep/corn/gold up quickly. This is what I did in the test game. I'm not sure what the risk is of not settling gold/sheep quickly might be in the real game, but it would be our 4th city instead of our 3rd city.
I'm not sure where it is best to build the pyramids, nor am I clear on the optimal tech path.
In my test game I realized we could skip aesthetics and alphabet and self tech machinery and optics. I suspect alphabet speeds up the process since we can build research. However, currency might be the better tech. If we plan on self tech machinery and optics, currency and wealth building would be much better than alphabet. Add the fact that there is a good chance we could trade for alphabet and the fact that currency gives us an extra trade route per city (probably just +1 but still...) and I think currency wins.
The great engineer comes too late to build the TAP (T120 is the earliest). I believe that would be too risky. Bulbing Theology allows us to build the AP before T100 (with a few chops). Probably can do significantly better if we really are concerned about it (accelerating the 2nd great prophet by running priest specialists for example and planning a few OF whips and chops). But I really don't think it is worth the sacrifice.
bcool
Deity
Here is another test of the currency idea
I have 6 cities but 3 are coastal and at 7,3,5 population. Still get optics by T112, built pyramids in the deer/gold/sheep (I didn't settle 1E of the gold). Settled Gems first. Built 5 workers early.
I teched currency instead of alphabet (no trades and no open borders).
I have 6 cities but 3 are coastal and at 7,3,5 population. Still get optics by T112, built pyramids in the deer/gold/sheep (I didn't settle 1E of the gold). Settled Gems first. Built 5 workers early.
I teched currency instead of alphabet (no trades and no open borders).
I also go for alpha, but not aesthetics. Alpha is nice for building research as you said, but also would allow us to get a neighbor to switch to hindu if it spreads. I am also good with waiting for the AI to research alpha, but I don't think the Toku personality will trade it with us.
I love currency, but I don't think it will pay for itself by turn 105. However, as a substitute for alpha (like you said) you might have nailed it.
We should consider an island city, or two to make currency pay off.
Here is my tech path:
Wheel (not ph, give workers something to do besides chop)
ph (makes it hard to get oracle t62, you have to play good MM)
pottery
AH
Mono for OR (hindu should spread, but we may need a missionary before chopping)
Writing
Math (then I chop all the pre chopped forests.)
? Alpha (not sure we should do this. If we know we're going to build axes, etc, then we won't build research anyway. Let's get it only if we pop a scientist.)
Meditation (probably do this before alpha for fast AP)
(Theo free)
(should probably add bcool's Currency here)
Fish
IW (or swap with sailing)
Sail...
I love currency, but I don't think it will pay for itself by turn 105. However, as a substitute for alpha (like you said) you might have nailed it.
We should consider an island city, or two to make currency pay off.
Here is my tech path:
Wheel (not ph, give workers something to do besides chop)
ph (makes it hard to get oracle t62, you have to play good MM)
pottery
AH
Mono for OR (hindu should spread, but we may need a missionary before chopping)
Writing
Math (then I chop all the pre chopped forests.)
? Alpha (not sure we should do this. If we know we're going to build axes, etc, then we won't build research anyway. Let's get it only if we pop a scientist.)
Meditation (probably do this before alpha for fast AP)
(Theo free)
(should probably add bcool's Currency here)
Fish
IW (or swap with sailing)
Sail...
mabraham
Deity
Fail gold on wonders with resource+OR multipliers may be better than building wealth, which is better than building research (since we will have science multiplier buildings). Building wealth and research get only forge multipliers. We have Temple of Artemis as an obvious candidate for fail gold. TGW until it goes. Aesthetics is cheaper than either Alpha or Currency, opening Schwedagon Paya and Parthenon for fail gold and then Lit for maybe building GLib ourselves. The downside is we never know when the fail gold will become available. Colossus also possible. Self-AP fail gold is possible, but won't have a resource multiplier. HG and Mids we may want to keep for ourselves.
Paya is not worth building since we'll have Mono and Theol so early, but since we have gold.
I'll have a go at a Currency-free attempt at fast no-bulb Optics after fast AP tomorrow.
Paya is not worth building since we'll have Mono and Theol so early, but since we have gold.
I'll have a go at a Currency-free attempt at fast no-bulb Optics after fast AP tomorrow.
bcool
Deity
I definitely go for fail gold on TGW and the Temple of Artemis, but the later wonders (Parthenon and Schwedagon Paya) are definitely larger gambles. In some games those wonders are built long after T110 so any fail gold we would get from them might come too late to help research machinery and optics.
Aesthetics + Literature is as expensive as currency I believe, so the great library for fail gold isn't much better than researching currency of alphabet.
If we go with currency WastinTime brings up a good point that we might want to settle on an island. This is obviously good for trade routes, and it has the added benefit of making more AI more likely.
I definitely can improve my currency play test (for example I delayed researching animal handling--which might make some sense if you don't settle near the sheep and don't settle the cows/deer city). I didn't time the workboat for fishing in the Marble/Fish city very well.
With the currency plan we definitely would have time to get a galley out and settle a most likely better island city than the Banana city. (unless the banana city has seafood that we have yet to discover). However when to place fish and sailing in the tech path is a good question.
Aesthetics + Literature is as expensive as currency I believe, so the great library for fail gold isn't much better than researching currency of alphabet.
If we go with currency WastinTime brings up a good point that we might want to settle on an island. This is obviously good for trade routes, and it has the added benefit of making more AI more likely.
I definitely can improve my currency play test (for example I delayed researching animal handling--which might make some sense if you don't settle near the sheep and don't settle the cows/deer city). I didn't time the workboat for fishing in the Marble/Fish city very well.
With the currency plan we definitely would have time to get a galley out and settle a most likely better island city than the Banana city. (unless the banana city has seafood that we have yet to discover). However when to place fish and sailing in the tech path is a good question.
DanF5771
Emperor
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2008
- Messages
- 1,194
shulec said:
No big deal shulec, we didn't really lose anything, we just traded 6 failgold for 3 food - food we could use to grow to 6 on an Axe after the DeerCow-Settler.(?)
Surprised about the lack of encouragement by the team for finishing your turnset. Well, the current situation appears to be too much of a break point.
~~~~
BTW our Toku already has Writing (he's got <open borders> in trade screen, but is denying it of course due to WE) and thus probably on his way to Alpha. We might think about getting him to pleased to get Alpha in trade (Alpha has no monopoly value just like Mono or Monarchy). We want Alpha soon for Spies. This also means, that we are likely going to get a visit from his eastern neighbor soon.
We should keep in mind that the game isn't over after building AP and researching Optics.
After some testing I think 6 is a really good number for our Fast Workers -- they have a lot to do, we want rather big cities in order to get enough votes eventually.
I like the GS in DeerCow with Delhi accumulating GPPs in parallel - with Kashi we can always squeeze it out first in an emergency = AP in danger.
I favor GS-Machinery (most beakers saved) and GP-Theo (time saved) bulb followed by self-teching Optics. Better have a stronger empire than (too) early Optics.
We've been so busy with tests after finding copper that we forgot to say, "Well played!" I think the 3 food is better than 6 gold. My tests use slavery to get a worker out and then regrow quickly, so that 3 food might be important.
@DanF: I'm also in the "not too early optics" camp. I don't see it in the critical path, so that's why I like self researching Mach too. Not bulbing with the 3rd GP would make a stronger empire in the long run. In case we need to tech to Astron, or Banking (for shared civic). Earlier someone mentioned we may not need Astronomy. However, among it's other benefits, wouldn't it help religion spread? I could also see us looking at construction(cats) before optics.
RE: currency vs. alpha vs. skip both, etc...
Alphabet has the huge advantage of spys. I want to know what's going on in the far east! and I want to see the SoD coming.
How long is the next turnset? and who is on it?
@DanF: I'm also in the "not too early optics" camp. I don't see it in the critical path, so that's why I like self researching Mach too. Not bulbing with the 3rd GP would make a stronger empire in the long run. In case we need to tech to Astron, or Banking (for shared civic). Earlier someone mentioned we may not need Astronomy. However, among it's other benefits, wouldn't it help religion spread? I could also see us looking at construction(cats) before optics.
RE: currency vs. alpha vs. skip both, etc...
Alphabet has the huge advantage of spys. I want to know what's going on in the far east! and I want to see the SoD coming.
How long is the next turnset? and who is on it?
bcool
Deity
My understanding is shulec still has 3 or 4 turns to play, then Kaitzilla.
Shulec is this your understanding or are you done?
We definitely need input into the current turnset, the active player must push us to make some final decisions.
So we really need to resolve who is up asap. Unfortunately we haven't heard from either shulec or Kaitzilla in a while. So please chime in guys with your opinions.
edit: and I apologize for not acknowledging the first half, I was caught in the debate and the uncertainty of the ongoing turnset interfered with the usually encouragement.
Shulec is this your understanding or are you done?
We definitely need input into the current turnset, the active player must push us to make some final decisions.
So we really need to resolve who is up asap. Unfortunately we haven't heard from either shulec or Kaitzilla in a while. So please chime in guys with your opinions.
edit: and I apologize for not acknowledging the first half, I was caught in the debate and the uncertainty of the ongoing turnset interfered with the usually encouragement.
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,920
Early Schwedagon Paya would allow adoption of Pacifism. Not sure we would be able to complete Paya early enough justify the opportunity costs, but it seems worth considering. Don't forget that Aesthetics is a great technology to trade; we may be getting trade partners soon.
Sun Tzu Wu
Sun Tzu Wu
I also don't want to make another mistake due to my poor focus related to the long period between putting out the ppp and actually playing.
I am sorry if I seeming to be difficult or pouty! I haven't had a chance to play our test on my own to be able to give a strong input on where to go from here.
I actually just realized that kaitzilla is next and he has been quiet lately. I also thought bcool was next. Permit me to turn a 180 and I will try and set a new ppp for T46-50 with an ETA ~12 hours from now.
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,920
shulec, please go ahead with your planned 4t PPP and turn set.
Thanks for keeping the game going during a critical point in the game. No one will hold a trjvial mistake against you or even a minor one or a major one for that matter. We all make mistakes in our games; its ok; most mistakes are recoverable and others don't even impact the win date/turn. So no worries, ok?
Sun Tzu Wu
Thanks for keeping the game going during a critical point in the game. No one will hold a trjvial mistake against you or even a minor one or a major one for that matter. We all make mistakes in our games; its ok; most mistakes are recoverable and others don't even impact the win date/turn. So no worries, ok?
Sun Tzu Wu
