A 2 pop whip without a granary leaving Delhi at size 3 when we actually want it to be producing Settlers at size 6?
I have quite strong doubts that the earlier worker turns outweigh the losses of not working our already improved tiles in the long term. I don't think we want to spend turns regrowing while building other stuff right now.
I cannot come up with any hard numbers to prove it but let me quote DaveMcW with a post he gives assuming a granary is present:
Originally Posted by DaveMcW
It is always inefficient to kill a citizen working a mined grassland hill.
At size 6, it becomes inefficient to kill off a mined plains hill.
At size 6, it becomes inefficient to kill off a plains forest.
At size 10, it becomes inefficient to kill off a mined desert hill.
At size 20, it becomes inefficient to kill off an engineer.
I think mabraham's spreadsheet will settle this issue. The calculations that this quote don't take into account is the benefit the worker brings. Producing the worker 2 turns earlier would mean everything the worker improves for the rest of the game happens 2 turns earlier. It could make up for the inefficient whipping. Of course it also delays everything that Delhi produces in the future too...
I'm worried about the tendency to not push forward our peaceful land grab in the east vs Toku as aggressively as we could -- we might lose Horses or Iron that way.
What was the reason for not getting Oracle in Sheep-Gold again? Was it the perceived risk of a late AP?
With Copper in Delhi's BFC for faster production that danger has decreased. There should be at least 5 forests left to chop into the AP (more with grows).
And I already explained the emergency plan of rushing out the GProphet from Delhi while getting the GS from DeerCow as 2nd GP.
Sheep-Gold with a very soon captured Corn will be a very strong city. I cannot emphasize the importance of food (Corn + green rivers) enough!
We do need to make some better tests of when the corn goes in the real game situation. Ironically I think whipping the worker in Delhi makes building the Oracle in the SheepGold city easier.
Other ways to accelerate our tech pace and take advantage of extra worker turns.
If the whip/chop OF trick doesn't work anymore then...
If we chop forests in a 7th city down by the fish or by the bananas into a wonder with production bonuses under OR then each forest we chop will be worth 30*1.25 or 67 gold. That extra gold might allow us to settle the extra coastal cities without slowing our research rate that much. Possibly even accelerate it. The question would be do we have an easy wonder to use in this way.
Producing the worker 2 turns earlier would mean everything the worker improves for the rest of the game happens 2 turns earlier. It could make up for the inefficient whipping.
We can exchange whipping with chopping, right?
I don't like Delhi at size 3, but am happy to be convinced and thus looking forward to the spreadsheet results.
Yes we can exchange whipping with chopping. Assuming that the workers are not outpacing city growth, an earlier worker would make up for the inefficient whipping or chopping.
I've been going through some test games to Turn 62 as well. Focusing on rapid expansion while ignoring The Great Wall's failure gold for now seems like the strongest bet.
I'd say Sheep_Gold right in Tokugawa's face is our best bet for 3rd city. After ten turns, the border pop will seal off chances of our eastern neighbor trying to steal our southern coast. The gold mine means it will eventually increase our research rate instead of drag it down. Dehli's next border pop should also secure the Deer_Cow settler spot inside our cultural borders to the Northeast.
I also like burning 2 forests in Deer_Gold to quickly create a worker and then another worker. The fast workers are good at running across the map anyway
After that, I am not as sure what is best. Keeping Dehli at size 5 creating settlers seems pretty strong. We need Priesthood and Wheel to open up Oracle, and Animal Husbandry is nice because it opens up Sheep_Gold, Deer_Cow, and eventually Gems_Pig to major growth. But that means Oracle has to be delayed out until T66 or T67 to allow time to research Pottery so we can pick Metal Casting if we research Animal Husbandry. Hmmmm.
Making a shrine in Dehli isn't a terrible choice. The Kashi will allow us to work 3 priests in Dehli, so we can very quickly crank out another Great Prophet thanks to our Philosophical trait. The possibility of it making contact with distant civs through random religious spreads once we build the Aposolistic Palace is very interesting. I don't think the random spread will be all that great with the Buddist spam already established, but there are enough land tiles to support lots of cities in our map.
For a 4th City, I chose Bananatown 1S of Dehli's corn. After 4 turns of borrowing Dehli's wet corn, it was working bronze and marble at size 2 and being very productive right away! It natually builds Oracle or axemen without the need for roads at a reasonable rate. The 3 gold from marble eliminates any maintenance costs. It is also a strong future city with the banana and loads of hills. 21 per turn at Size_8 if it steals Dehli's Copper.
Spoiler:
If we did choose Oracle in a city other than Sheep_Gold, we could always build the Great Wall or Pyramids in Sheep_Gold for culture pressure once we connect stone to the east.
We could also try picking a condensed name for each city based on a unique nearby tile. I keep confusing myself over the difference between Deer_Gold and Sheep_Gold. I propose Dehli, Deercity, Sheepcity, Cowcity, Bananatown, Gemsville, and Fishland
In my tests, barbs became a concern on T57 as they appeared outside our capital's coastal borders when the next border pop came. I also saw a barb archer appear on T55 and a wolf shoot out of the fog to eat an unescorted settler.
I agree that we simply must have the AP in this game. It opens up a victory condition and keeps the Buddist world from starting a disasterous holy war against us.
In the short term I think our goals and priorities should be: settlers, workers, continued fogbusting, timing an important Oracle-Pottery completion, and connecting bronze in that order.
A war with Tokugawa seems both inevitable and bloody with the border pressure we will be having out east eventually. Gazing into the fog, it looks like his capital is sitting on a hill, probably containing protective archers, with a possible castle as someone mentioned earlier and no easy way to scout first.
A war with Hammagawa doesn't seem as inevitable, but axeman destroying bowmen make another tough nut to crack.
These closed borders suck! We are boxed in on all sides it feels like!
I apologize that I missed shulec's earlier comment comment about ending his turnset early. I appreciate him picking up the remaining in his turnset despite the confusion. If I had realized shulec's turn was over I would have been more explicit about whose turn it was.
We need to debate the next 4 turns and get the game moving. We have been taking a bit too much time early on. If the game goes longer than we hope we definitely want the game moving faster than it has been.
2 big issues in the next 4 turns
Chop workers or not?
The longer term path is a bit unclear, but I'm in favor of chopping at least 2 forests for more workers out of DeerGold.
Where to settle?
If the plan is to build the oracle in Delhi then I think settling by the gems instead of gold/corn/sheep is better in the short term. We can get the gems working a turn or 2 after we settle by the gems. While the gold near gold/corn/sheep takes much longer to get worked.
I missed the possibly earlier turnset message too, sorry.
I vote chop the workers, and settle sheep/gold as 3rd city site.
Gems City is nice in the short term, but aggressively expanding toward our neighbors instead of backfilling seems like it will pay off more eventually.
Goals:
Build workers, settlers.
Protect settler heading to sheeptown site.
Dehli
If not building Oracle in Sheeptown
T46 Worker
T47 Whip Worker
T48 Settler
T49 Finish settler
T50 Next turnset
If building Oracle on Sheeptown.
T46-T48 Settler
T49-50 Build worker
Settler: No moves this turnset.
Deergold City(Formerly Bombay)
T46-48 Build Worker
T49 Finish worker, start new worker
T50 next turnset.
Workers Eiffel
Move to Deer, build camp
T46-48 Chop forest
T49-50 Move 1S1E, chop forest.
Fritz
T49-50 Move 1S and chop.
Warriors Amundson
Fortify for third turn, expect lion attack.
Burke
Fortify on Choke spot.
Cook
Move to choke spot NW of Deergold City
De Soto (new warrior)
T46 Fortify on Marble
T47 Move 1E if no risk from lion or bear.
T48-50 Support Amundson, prepare for settler escort.
Research
PH=>Wheel
Binary research. If we build the Oracle in Dehli, should we research Wheel=>PH
Civics
Adopt slavery if needed.
Espionage
Always on Hamuragawa.
Stopping points:
WHEOOHRN
Meet a new AI.
A dilemma regarding animals or barbs.
An info that breaks the planned game.
Oracle built by AI.
Resource popping on a mined hill.
Miscellaneous:
Look for AI culture in satellite view
Save game
Note (using Alt+S) forest/jungle growth, animals/barbs appearing etc.
Take screenshots if interesting developments.
It uses the whip before the settler destined for Sheeptown is finished, which slows that settler by one turn.
If we want Sheeptown to build the Oracle, we don't want to whip.
Does anyone favor a different chopping pattern in Deergold?
Do we want to build the Oracle in Dehli or Sheeptown?
If we whip in Dehli, what do we build to regrow? One turn TGW, then Oracle?
If we build the Oracle in Dehli, do we want to research wheel first?
It uses the whip before the settler destined for Sheeptown is finished, which slows that settler by one turn.
If we want Sheeptown to build the Oracle, we don't want to whip.
Does anyone favor a different chopping pattern in Deergold?
Do we want to build the Oracle in Dehli or Sheeptown?
If we whip in Dehli, what do we build to regrow? One turn TGW, then Oracle?
If we build the Oracle in Dehli, do we want to research wheel first?
The chop pattern for Deergold looks good. Riverside grassland forests are always fine to chop in my opinion.
Where to build Oracle is a tough one. Sheeptown is a runt without animal husbandry but is the ideal place to put Oracle if it can steal corn. If we did decide to build it there, it would take a lot of roads to bring marble access and a lot of chops to get a decent time.
Research seems like we should avoid priesthood while on T46 and research something more valuable like Wheel, or Animal Husbandry maybe. It would give workers more options. I can definitely see priesthood being the 2nd tech researched, or 3rd if we decide not to be aggressive with Oracle time.
Four chops out of DeerGold, the last one finishes the third worker. I chop the GFH second using the first worker built. Migrate directly SE as chopping completes. I don't think there is room to squeeze in some early roads to speed the later workers. Edit Duh, TW isn't done yet anyway.
IIRC first worker out of Delhi can chop the second from the SE forest. Send a worker to the deer the turn before TW finshes. Start that road, and with some other worker(s) the road SW of deer. Incoming workers from the NW can often move to the road SW of deer and then to deer and put a turn on the camp for efficiency before moving off to other things next turn. Road SE of Delhi is not needed. Two workers road the forest NE of marble the turn before the border pop, then do the marble. One worker chops the forest NW of deer after the border pop, but in time to accelerate the settler build (this can be started before the border pop). There is time for the camp to be finished before DeerCows settler plants.
Meanwhile the SheepGold city settles T52 building Oracle and working sheep. Two workers build roads to SheepGold for trade route on Ghill and river Pforest (not gold), then gold mine (finishes just before the time it grows to size 2). When the city just grows to size 2 from working sheep, marble has just come online and there is two excess food. Work a Pforest and the gold mine. As the pre-DeerCows chop and the gold mine finish, loop the workers around so that most of them end by chopping the forest that has a road under it (means they can then move elsewhere with maximum speed). One Oracle chop can occur T60. On T61 DeerCows settles, toggle the tile to SheepGold, chop it, then chop the roaded forest. Should end with zero food and exact hammers, working gold and river plains.
I'm against whipping the worker in Delhi. I think we should switch to a worker in Delhi and then build the settler. This worker along with the next worker to be produced in DeerGold can set up SheepGold and we can build the Oracle there to recapture the corn. If you worldbuild out the monument from the testgame we capture the corn relatively quickly.
If we delay the settler out of Delhi it does delay the settling of SheepGold by a few turns, however we can have the gold up the turn after it is settled, and having SheepGold build the Oracle while working the Gold makes up a few turns that building the worker first causes. Others might be able to do the worker micro better, but this plan is a nice balance of development and rushing the Oracle. It does push the Oracle back at least 2 turns.
I sent the worker from DeerGold to help build copper mine roads for Delhi and SheepGold rather than help chop near DeerGold. (So I sent Fritz to Delhi straight rather than help chop near DeerGold)
The results are quite impressive though. (at least it is much better than my other testgames)
summary of settling
SheepGold 1E of gold, then Gems, then DeerCows, then FishMarble. (this means we do chop a forest outside of SheepGold's borders for the Oracle, but the hammers are enough to finish the Oracle that turn, so I think it might be worth it) I like settling Gems since you can get the gems up the turn after you settle that city too. Makes it easier to get animal handling researched.
Builds in Delhi, interrupt settler for worker, settler, grow on Great Wall for failgold, turn on granary, then another settler
Builds in DeerGold, worker, worker, worker, pyramids (chopped 2 forests in DeerGold for workers, then slow built another worker)
I did chop a forest into the pyramids for failgold in Delhi -- this is really important so we can power through currency at 100% research, then research goes fast with wealth builds in just a few cities.
stats T107
However, I was able to build 11 axeman (fought off a small stack of vultures & DoW), a few monasteries, pyramids, hanging gardens T108, 2 forges, several libraries, granaries, workboat, 1.9 triremes, and have 6 cities (2 coastal) populations 11,5,4,9,5,4 +1 with Hanging Gardens T108.
Spoiler:
Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------ Turn 46/500 (2160 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:12:46] Delhi begins: Fast Worker (4 turns) Research begun: The Wheel (87 Turns) 0% Research: 0 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 100% Gold: 18 per turn, 1 in the bank
Turn 47/500 (2120 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:13:43] 100% Research: 22 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -4 per turn, 19 in the bank
Turn 48/500 (2080 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:13:52] 100% Research: 22 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -4 per turn, 15 in the bank
Bombay finishes: Fast Worker
Turn 49/500 (2040 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:14:07] Bombay begins: Fast Worker (8 turns) 100% Research: 22 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -4 per turn, 11 in the bank
Delhi finishes: Fast Worker
Turn 50/500 (2000 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:14:37] 100% Research: 22 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -4 per turn, 7 in the bank
Tech research finished: The Wheel
Turn 51/500 (1960 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:15:04] Research begun: Priesthood (4 Turns) 0% Research: 0 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 100% Gold: 18 per turn, 3 in the bank
Bombay finishes: Fast Worker
Turn 52/500 (1920 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:15:35] Bombay begins: Fast Worker (8 turns) A Mine was built near Delhi 100% Research: 23 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -4 per turn, 21 in the bank
Delhi finishes: Settler
Turn 53/500 (1880 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:16:41] Delhi begins: Settler (6 turns) 100% Research: 23 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -5 per turn, 17 in the bank
Turn 54/500 (1840 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:17:51] 100% Research: 23 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -5 per turn, 12 in the bank
Tech research finished: Priesthood
Turn 55/500 (1800 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:18:52] Research begun: Pottery (4 Turns) 100% Research: 23 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -6 per turn, 7 in the bank
Turn 56/500 (1760 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:20:24] Vijayanagara founded Vijayanagara begins: The Oracle (150 turns) 0% Research: 0 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 100% Gold: 17 per turn, 1 in the bank
Turn 57/500 (1720 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:21:35] A Mine was built near Vijayanagara 100% Research: 32 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -8 per turn, 18 in the bank
Delhi's borders expand Delhi finishes: Settler
Turn 58/500 (1680 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:22:14] Delhi begins: Fast Worker (4 turns) 100% Research: 32 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -8 per turn, 10 in the bank
Bombay finishes: Fast Worker
Turn 59/500 (1640 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:23:20] Bombay begins: The Pyramids (50 turns) 50% Research: 16 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 50% Gold: 7 per turn, 2 in the bank
Tech research finished: Pottery
Turn 60/500 (1600 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:24:27] Research begun: Animal Husbandry (6 Turns) A Quarry was built 0% Research: 0 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 100% Gold: 24 per turn, 9 in the bank
Turn 61/500 (1560 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:25:07] Pataliputra founded Pataliputra begins: Granary (60 turns) 100% Research: 37 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -13 per turn, 33 in the bank
Turn 62/500 (1520 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:26:43] Delhi begins: Granary (5 turns) A Mine was built near Pataliputra 100% Research: 42 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -13 per turn, 20 in the bank
Delhi grows to size 6 Hinduism has spread: Pataliputra
Turn 63/500 (1480 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:27:33] 50% Research: 21 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 50% Gold: 8 per turn, 7 in the bank
Tech research finished: Animal Husbandry Narak (Great Prophet) born in Delhi Vijayanagara finishes: The Oracle
Turn 64/500 (1440 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:29:00] Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Metal Casting Research begun: Writing (3 Turns) Delhi finishes: The Kashi Vishwanath Vijayanagara begins: Granary (15 turns) 100% Research: 42 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -9 per turn, 189 in the bank
After End Turn: Vijayanagara's borders expand
Turn 65/500 (1400 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:30:12] A Pasture was built near Tlatelolco A Pasture was built near Pataliputra 100% Research: 29 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -9 per turn, 180 in the bank
Delhi finishes: Granary
Turn 66/500 (1360 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:30:43] Delhi begins: Settler (5 turns) 100% Research: 29 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -9 per turn, 171 in the bank
Bombay grows to size 3 Pataliputra's borders expand
Turn 67/500 (1320 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:31:36] A Farm was built near Bombay 100% Research: 30 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -9 per turn, 162 in the bank
Tech research finished: Writing Pataliputra grows to size 2
Turn 68/500 (1280 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:32:18] Research begun: Monotheism (4 Turns) 100% Research: 37 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -9 per turn, 153 in the bank
After End Turn: Vijayanagara grows to size 2
Turn 69/500 (1240 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:33:32] 100% Research: 45 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -10 per turn, 144 in the bank
Turn 70/500 (1200 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:34:12] 100% Research: 45 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -10 per turn, 134 in the bank
Tech research finished: Monotheism Delhi finishes: Settler
Turn 71/500 (1160 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:35:39] Research begun: Mathematics (8 Turns) Delhi begins: Library (5 turns) A Mine was built near Bombay 100% Research: 45 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -11 per turn, 124 in the bank
Turn 72/500 (1120 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:36:46] Varanasi founded A Farm was built near Pataliputra Varanasi begins: Granary (60 turns) 100% Research: 47 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -17 per turn, 113 in the bank
Bombay grows to size 4 Pataliputra grows to size 3
Turn 73/500 (1080 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:37:31] A Camp was built near Varanasi 100% Research: 48 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -17 per turn, 96 in the bank
After End Turn: The whip was applied in Pataliputra Delhi grows to size 7 Pataliputra finishes: Granary
Other Player Actions: Hinduism has spread: York (English Empire)
Turn 74/500 (1040 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:38:40] Pataliputra begins: Library (30 turns) A Farm was built near Tlatelolco 100% Research: 48 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -15 per turn, 79 in the bank
Turn 75/500 (1000 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:39:30] Delhi begins: Forge (6 turns) Delhi begins: Settler (5 turns) 100% Research: 43 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -15 per turn, 64 in the bank
After End Turn: Vijayanagara grows to size 3
Turn 76/500 (975 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:40:25] A Farm was built near Vijayanagara A Pasture was built near Varanasi 100% Research: 43 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -15 per turn, 49 in the bank
The whip was applied in Vijayanagara Vijayanagara finishes: Granary
Turn 77/500 (950 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:41:04] Vijayanagara begins: Library (23 turns) 100% Research: 51 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -15 per turn, 34 in the bank
Tech research finished: Mathematics Pataliputra grows to size 3 Varanasi grows to size 2
Turn 78/500 (925 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:42:04] Research begun: Meditation (2 Turns) Research begun: Fishing (2 Turns) A Mine was built near Vijayanagara 0% Research: 0 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 100% Gold: 25 per turn, 19 in the bank
After End Turn: Hinduism has spread: Varanasi
Turn 79/500 (900 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:43:58] 0% Research: 0 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 100% Gold: 26 per turn, 44 in the bank
After End Turn: Delhi finishes: Settler Vijayanagara grows to size 3 Pataliputra grows to size 4 Pataliputra finishes: Library
Christianity founded in a distant land
Turn 80/500 (875 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:44:50] A Cottage was built near Delhi Pataliputra begins: Forge (40 turns) Delhi begins: Forge (6 turns) Bombay begins: Granary (6 turns) Delhi begins: The Pyramids (14 turns) 100% Research: 61 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -18 per turn, 70 in the bank
Tech research finished: Fishing Hinduism has spread: Vijayanagara Varanasi's borders expand
Turn 81/500 (850 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:47:03] Research begun: Meditation (2 Turns) Delhi begins: Forge (6 turns) Bombay begins: The Pyramids (9 turns) Agra founded Agra begins: Granary (30 turns) Pataliputra begins: Work Boat (10 turns) 100% Research: 62 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -23 per turn, 52 in the bank
After End Turn: Vijayanagara grows to size 4 Varanasi grows to size 3
Turn 82/500 (825 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:48:36] A Cottage was built near Delhi 100% Research: 66 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -26 per turn, 29 in the bank
After End Turn: Tech research finished: Meditation Delhi grows to size 8 Bombay grows to size 5 Pataliputra grows to size 5
Other Player Actions: Attitude Change: Saladin (Byzantium) towards Mehmed II (Sumeria), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Turn 83/500 (800 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:49:22] A Mine was built near Bombay A Farm was built near Pataliputra Research begun: Currency (8 Turns) 0% Research: 0 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 100% Gold: 33 per turn, 3 in the bank
After End Turn: Whip anger has decreased in Pataliputra Vijayanagara grows to size 5 Varanasi finishes: Granary
Turn 84/500 (775 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:50:12] A Cottage was built near Varanasi Varanasi begins: Barracks (9 turns) Varanasi begins: Aqueduct (17 turns) 0% Research: 0 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 100% Gold: 35 per turn, 36 in the bank
After End Turn: The whip was applied in Vijayanagara Bombay finishes: The Pyramids Vijayanagara finishes: Library
Turn 85/500 (750 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:52:16] Vijayanagara begins: Barracks (10 turns) 0% Research: 3 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 100% Gold: 33 per turn, 71 in the bank
After End Turn: Bombay's borders expand Vijayanagara grows to size 4 Pataliputra grows to size 6 Pataliputra finishes: Work Boat
Other Player Actions: Civics Change: DanF(India) from 'Despotism' to 'Representation'
Turn 86/500 (725 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:54:20] Diplomacy (Tribute Demand): Joao II (England) demands that DanF (India) gives Meditation; DanF AGREES. Tech traded to Joao II (England): Meditation A Cottage was built near Delhi Pataliputra begins: Hindu Monastery (9 turns) 100% Research: 89 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -30 per turn, 218 in the bank
After End Turn: Whip anger has decreased in Vijayanagara Delhi grows to size 9 Delhi finishes: Forge Bombay finishes: Granary Varanasi grows to size 4
Turn 87/500 (700 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:55:46] A Farm was built near Bombay Delhi begins: Hindu Monastery (3 turns) Bombay begins: Library (9 turns) 100% Research: 93 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -30 per turn, 188 in the bank
After End Turn: Tipu Sultan (Great Prophet) born in Delhi Vijayanagara grows to size 5
Other Player Actions: Confucianism founded in a distant land
Turn 88/500 (675 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:57:18] A Mine was built near Vijayanagara Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Theology 100% Research: 93 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -30 per turn, 158 in the bank
After End Turn: Delhi finishes: Hindu Monastery Varanasi grows to size 5
Other Player Actions: Civics Change: Mansa Musa(Aztec) from 'Slavery' to 'Caste System'
Turn 89/500 (650 BC) [03-Mar-2012 06:58:57] Delhi begins: The Apostolic Palace (20 turns) 100% Research: 92 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -31 per turn, 128 in the bank
After End Turn: The whip was applied in Pataliputra A Hamlet was built near Delhi Pataliputra finishes: Hindu Monastery
Turn 90/500 (625 BC) [03-Mar-2012 07:00:23] Pataliputra begins: Barracks (17 turns) 100% Research: 96 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -31 per turn, 97 in the bank
After End Turn: Delhi grows to size 10 Vijayanagara grows to size 6 Vijayanagara finishes: Barracks Agra's borders expand
Turn 91/500 (600 BC) [03-Mar-2012 07:01:12] A Mine was built near Tlatelolco Vijayanagara begins: Axeman (4 turns) 100% Research: 95 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -31 per turn, 66 in the bank
After End Turn: The whip was applied in Bombay Tech research finished: Currency A Hamlet was built near Delhi Bombay grows to size 4 Bombay finishes: Library Varanasi grows to size 6
Other Player Actions: Civics Change: Mehmed II(Sumeria) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'
Turn 92/500 (575 BC) [03-Mar-2012 07:01:58] A Fishing Boats was built near Agra A Mine was built near Varanasi A Mine was built near Bombay Research begun: Sailing (1 Turns) Bombay begins: Hindu Monastery (10 turns) 100% Research: 108 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -32 per turn, 35 in the bank
After End Turn: Tech research finished: Sailing Agra finishes: Granary
Turn 93/500 (550 BC) [03-Mar-2012 07:02:52] Research begun: Iron Working (2 Turns) A Farm was built near Vijayanagara Agra begins: Trireme (50 turns) 0% Research: 8 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 100% Gold: 44 per turn, 3 in the bank
After End Turn: Vijayanagara grows to size 7 Vijayanagara finishes: Axeman Pataliputra grows to size 5 Pataliputra's borders expand
Turn 94/500 (525 BC) [03-Mar-2012 07:04:28] Vijayanagara begins: Axeman (4 turns) 100% Research: 109 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -31 per turn, 47 in the bank
After End Turn: Bombay grows to size 5 Varanasi grows to size 7 Varanasi finishes: Aqueduct
Other Player Actions: Mehmed II (Sumeria) declares war on DanF (India)
Turn 95/500 (500 BC) [03-Mar-2012 07:05:24] Bombay begins: Axeman (7 turns) Pataliputra begins: Axeman (12 turns) Varanasi begins: Axeman (3 turns) Varanasi begins: The Hanging Gardens (12 turns) Varanasi begins: Axeman (3 turns) 50% Research: 62 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 50% Gold: -2 per turn, 16 in the bank
After End Turn: Tech research finished: Iron Working Delhi grows to size 11 A Hamlet was built near Varanasi
Other Player Actions: Hinduism has spread: Texcoco (Aztec Empire) While defending in Indian territory near Bombay, Burke loses to Sumerian Vulture (3.66/6) (Prob Victory: 0.4%)
Turn 96/500 (475 BC) [03-Mar-2012 07:07:09] A Mine was built near Vijayanagara A Mine was built near Agra Research begun: Compass (9 Turns) 50% Research: 57 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 50% Gold: 5 per turn, 14 in the bank
After End Turn: The whip was applied in Bombay Whip anger has decreased in Vijayanagara The whip was applied in Pataliputra Bombay grows to size 4 Bombay finishes: Axeman Vijayanagara grows to size 8 Vijayanagara finishes: Axeman Pataliputra finishes: Axeman
Turn 97/500 (450 BC) [03-Mar-2012 07:08:35] Vijayanagara begins: Axeman (3 turns) 50% Research: 59 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 50% Gold: 3 per turn, 19 in the bank
After End Turn: Bombay finishes: Hindu Monastery Vijayanagara finishes: Axeman Pataliputra grows to size 4 Varanasi grows to size 8 Varanasi finishes: Axeman Agra grows to size 2
Turn 98/500 (425 BC) [03-Mar-2012 07:10:10] Diplomacy (Help Request): Joao II (England) asks DanF (India) for Currency; DanF REFUSES. Diplomacy: Mansa Musa (Aztec) offers to trade Archery to DanF (India) for Meditation Diplomacy: DanF (India) rejects trade of Meditation to Mansa Musa (Aztec) for Archery Bombay begins: Axeman (7 turns) Vijayanagara begins: Axeman (3 turns) Varanasi begins: Forge (10 turns) Varanasi begins: The Hanging Gardens (13 turns) Varanasi begins: The Hanging Gardens (13 turns) Varanasi begins: Library (7 turns) 50% Research: 60 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 50% Gold: 13 per turn, 22 in the bank
After End Turn: Delhi finishes: The Apostolic Palace A Hamlet was built near Delhi Bombay finishes: Axeman
Turn 99/500 (400 BC) [03-Mar-2012 07:12:47] Diplomacy: Joao II (England) offers to trade Open Borders to DanF (India) for Open Borders Diplomacy: DanF (India) rejects trade of Open Borders to Joao II (England) for Open Borders Bombay begins: Walls (4 turns) Bombay begins: Axeman (5 turns) Vijayanagara begins: Axeman (3 turns) 100% Research: 123 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -13 per turn, 35 in the bank
After End Turn: Whip anger has decreased in Pataliputra The whip was applied in Varanasi Bombay grows to size 5 Pataliputra grows to size 5 Varanasi finishes: Library
Turn 100/500 (375 BC) [03-Mar-2012 07:15:46] Varanasi begins: The Hanging Gardens (13 turns) 100% Research: 139 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -16 per turn, 22 in the bank
After End Turn: The whip was applied in Pataliputra Vijayanagara grows to size 9 Pataliputra finishes: Forge Varanasi grows to size 7 Agra grows to size 3
Turn 101/500 (350 BC) [03-Mar-2012 07:16:50] Pataliputra begins: Axeman (6 turns) Axeman 3 (Vijayanagara) promoted: Combat I Axeman 1 (Vijayanagara) promoted: Combat I Axeman 5 (Vijayanagara) promoted: Combat I A Mine was built near Vijayanagara 50% Research: 90 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 50% Gold: 22 per turn, 6 in the bank
After End Turn: Whip anger has decreased in Bombay Tech research finished: Compass Vijayanagara finishes: Axeman Pataliputra finishes: Axeman Agra finishes: Trireme
Other Player Actions: Hinduism has spread: Warwick (English Empire) Civics Change: Mansa Musa(Aztec) from 'Despotism' to 'Hereditary Rule'
Turn 102/500 (325 BC) [03-Mar-2012 07:18:14] Research begun: Machinery (6 Turns) Agra begins: Trireme (7 turns) A Farm was built near Varanasi 100% Research: 170 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: 2 per turn, 28 in the bank
After End Turn: Bombay finishes: Axeman
Turn 103/500 (300 BC) [03-Mar-2012 07:20:18] Bombay begins: Barracks (7 turns) 100% Research: 167 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: 1 per turn, 30 in the bank
After End Turn:
Other Player Actions: While defending in Indian territory at Delhi, Axeman 3 (Vijayanagara) (2.00/5) defeats Sumerian Vulture (Prob Victory: 96.4%) While defending in Indian territory at Delhi, Axeman 5 (Vijayanagara) (5.00/5) defeats Sumerian Vulture (Prob Victory: 96.2%) While defending in Indian territory at Delhi, Axeman 5 (Vijayanagara) (1.25/5) defeats Sumerian Vulture (Prob Victory: 96.2%) While defending in Indian territory at Delhi, Axeman 6 (Varanasi) (5.00/5) defeats Sumerian Vulture (Prob Victory: 99.9%) Attitude Change: Mehmed II (Sumeria) towards DanF (India), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Turn 104/500 (275 BC) [03-Mar-2012 07:22:02] Diplomacy: Joao II (England) offers to trade Archery to DanF (India) for Polytheism Diplomacy: DanF (India) rejects trade of Polytheism to Joao II (England) for Archery 100% Research: 181 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -3 per turn, 31 in the bank
After End Turn: Wilbur Wright (Great Engineer) born in Delhi Vijayanagara's borders expand
Turn 105/500 (250 BC) [03-Mar-2012 07:24:09] A Cottage was built near Varanasi A Farm was built near Bombay 100% Research: 181 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -6 per turn, 28 in the bank
After End Turn: Agra grows to size 4
Turn 106/500 (225 BC) [03-Mar-2012 07:26:07] A Farm was built near Vijayanagara 100% Research: 181 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -7 per turn, 22 in the bank
I'm against whipping the worker in Delhi. I think we should switch to a worker in Delhi and then build the settler. This worker along with the next worker to be produced in DeerGold can set up SheepGold and we can build the Oracle there to recapture the corn. If you worldbuild out the monument from the testgame we capture the corn relatively quickly.
If we delay the settler out of Delhi it does delay the settling of SheepGold by a few turns, however we can have the gold up the turn after it is settled, and having SheepGold build the Oracle while working the Gold makes up a few turns that building the worker first causes. Others might be able to do the worker micro better, but this plan is a nice balance of development and rushing the Oracle. It does push the Oracle back at least 2 turns.
I sent the worker from DeerGold to help build copper mine roads for Delhi and SheepGold rather than help chop near DeerGold.
Since a fast chop into a worker in DeerGold is not a great proposition, and roads for the copper mine are not a priority until we are about to need marble, I would suggest planning to bring Eiffel back to combine with a fast-whipped worker to mine the copper before the settler even finishes. The three food in the Delhi food bin is great, because our post-copper food excess is 8, so we regrow the fourth pop (need 26) and the fifth pop at excess of 9 (need 28) in three turns and three turns respectively, while getting fail gold on TGW or setting up for fast Oracle as appropriate. Meanwhile, those two workers can finish the gold mine in SheepGold the turn after it founds, DeerGold gets out two more workers, and we should be in good shape for T62 Oracle.
I haven't had time to play through this yet to see if the workers sync up well enough, but I expect the earlier working of the copper mine and gold mine, and the lump of 60 hammers to more than offset the "lost" productivity from the whip.
I my tests, I finish the worker in DeerGold and then build a settler. It comes out nicely in 13 turns just when the marble is complete and a worker can move over to mine the gems.
It looks like the team is going a different direction, but I just wanted to point out that it felt like pretty good timing.
I'd still rather not chop forests for 20 when they can get as much as 45 later. And not much later. I'm talking turns in the 70's (for finishing forge/pyramids, etc.)
I didn't like the whip in Delhi because in my games that meant I delayed the gems settler out of Delhi. If you build that settler in DeerGold then maybe the whip in Delhi isn't too bad. I was thinking of Delhi as the place to build settlers.
Maybe you can give more details of your testgames (the log file or a summary of the builds) so I can get a feel for how it compares to mine?
I played with whipping the worker in Delhi and building the Oracle in Sheep/Gold.
I can't get a T62 Oracle, but I can get a T63 Oracle with 3 forest chops near SheepGold. No chops near DeerGold.
Ok Micro necessary for a T63 Oracle in SheepGold with worker whip in Delhi
Eiffel
T46 2S2E
T47 SE,S,SE
T48 SE,SE,farm
T49 move to copper mine
T50 mine copper (fin)
T51 move 3E1S
T52 move NE, road forest
T53 move gold, mine
T54 move gold, mine (fin)
T55 move 1N, chop
T56 NW, SW, road
T57 farm 1S2E of Delhi road copper
T58 road forest SE of marble
T59 move to 1N1W of sheepgold
T60 chop
T61 chop
T62 chop
Hoover (worker whipped in Delhi)
T48 move to copper mine
T49 mine copper
T50 road copper move 1S2E of Delhi farm
T51 move to hill 1W of gold
T52 move NE, road (forest NW of sheepgold)
T53 gold mine
T54 gold mine
T55 move 1N, chop (stop)
T56 move 1S2E of Delhi farm
T57 move forest south of copper road
T58 marble
T59 marble
T60 marble
T61 off to deer or to gems city site
Fritz worker built in DeerGold
T49 move 2S2E
T50 S, SE, SE
T51 SW SE, road (1W of deer)
T52 finish road
T53 move SE road
T54 move NE road
T55 finish road
T56 move to 1S2E of Delhi farm
T57 finish farm
T58 move 1N of SheepGold
T59 chop
T60 chop
T61 chop
T62 move and finish chop outside of SheepGold borders (unless we get a lucky hindu spread)
worker build in Delhi at size 4
T57 road copper (fin)
T58 marble
T59 marble
T60 marble
T61 off to gems or DeerCows site
I feel we need to keep the game moving, so I'm not going to argue too much. I'm OK with the basic direction. I just would rather not chop too many forests. We have no urgent need for metal casting, so a more casual build of the Oracle is fine with me. Fail gold is not the best case, but it's not the end of the world.
Question: If you build Oracle in SheepGold, when can you *guarantee* a prophet for Theo?
This seems more critical than Oracle/metal Casting. We don't need the AP very soon, but if someone else gets Theo, we have to worry about losing it.
So getting Theo 1st is my main concern. All the rest (settling, libraries, GS, hanging gardens, AP, etc) is all going to get delayed when we start fighting.
Delhi:
Whip worker, TGW, Oracle, settler(to Cows), worker or granary?
SheepGold:
Worker, Axe
I'm fine with no whip, but then I don't know if we can get the work done (roads, gold, marble) We'd probably have to skip a few roads. It seems to me that chopping 1 forest in DeerGold doesn't help much in getting this work done. That only rushes worker #3, does nothing for worker #2. Chopping 2 would be required and I'm not sure the work gets done on time this way.
I feel we need to keep the game moving, so I'm not going to argue too much. I'm OK with the basic direction. I just would rather not chop too many forests. We have no urgent need for metal casting, so a more casual build of the Oracle is fine with me. Fail gold is not the best case, but it's not the end of the world.
Yeah, good point. I've spent a few hours playing around today, and I can't get a T62 Oracle in SheepGold with only four workers. Both TW and PH come slightly too late for several theoretical constructs I made.
Question: If you build Oracle in SheepGold, when can you *guarantee* a prophet for Theo?
This seems more critical than Oracle/metal Casting. We don't need the AP very soon, but if someone else gets Theo, we have to worry about losing it.
If we get Kashi around T64, we get three priest spots open, so we could get Theol at whatever point we like after T76. T76 requires us to run constant mass priests, however, and we want to do some other things first, like settler for DeerCows and maybe granary.
So getting Theo 1st is my main concern. All the rest (settling, libraries, GS, hanging gardens, AP, etc) is all going to get delayed when we start fighting.
We do not get DOWed-our-friend penalties with AIs we'd not met when we DOWed, so there's some value in an axeman rush on Osaka, followed by sending spear+axe to pillage on the way to the far side to meet his other neighbour (assuming we won't yet be able to kill Kyoto with a castle). If we're axeman-rushing Osaka, there's not much value for Oracle in SheepGold. (Since Toku may have OB with that other neighbour, we might make contact that way, however Toku is spending EPs on that neighbour, so he likes them less than us, so maybe OB won't happen?) Keeping Toku nerfed with a couple of pillaging stacks could be the way to go here. There's no war weariness issue because there won't be (much) combat for us to lose. We probably get to use the AP holy war to suck in other allies.
The alternative is staying weak while building infrastructure, preparing to spam units at the first sign of trouble, and hope Toku has nowhere to expand and DOWs us.
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per turn at Size_8 if it steals Dehli's Copper.
