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SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 15, 2012.

  1. mabraham

    mabraham Chieftain

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    Yes, I think Tachy has the wrong end of this. I tried in my original post to point out that the fort is a two-edged sword, as it enables both city attack and defence promotions to work.
     
  2. mabraham

    mabraham Chieftain

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    Nice - that's a good way to generate a wounded trireme for us.
     
  3. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    Fort are far away. If ever the SoD comes earlier than any established fort or even math online, the defense on forest means their CR promos are useless.

    :sad: People here sure are peacemongers :(...my idea was simply opportunistic. Get the city if he doesn't whip (it happens sometimes) or making peace right away. Probably the city doesn't worth that much, especially knowing giving it back breaks all culture pressure we had onto him (thx Dan). Anyways, war is hard to put into numbers and something looking inefficient can come efficient in long term. But looking nobody agrees, I give up the idea, but peace with Toku as fast as possible should be high priority if we still want Hammuragawa as future voters for us.

    No, I wasn't even thinking of forts and I precised it. Defending on that forest which is the only path to attack DeerGold has better defense than the city itself even with second border pop. Unless we plan to build a wall for the meager 10 %, we have that forest with all defense already set up. And unless DanF5771 has a special behaviour to share, I think Sun Tzu Wu's idea to defend on that forest is a great idea. And CR are nullified in the sense they become useless for an attacker attacking a unit on a forest plot without fort.

    Only healing process is the downside of that tactic, but I don't expect waves of stacks like immortal/deity; we're on emperor.

    Yes, I look like I do not understand the situation quite often, I admit :lol:, but when you mentioned those CR promos, then the idea came up of using that forest for even better reasons.

    Unless someone has something very convincing, I do not retract yet defending on that forest. As you said, his SoD isn't ready, therefore we have time to prepare on that plot.

    Okay, I am trying to recapitulate because it may something I forgot to take into account. We're not going for archers in short term and perhaps not in long term and it is the only units with special defense for cities and forts. Like its inherent 50% for city defense and CG promos.
    Axes are our primary defenders and it can't get access to any city/fort promos. Then I don't understand why people wants to defend in the city more than the forest tile. Healing rate is one of few downside.
     
  4. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Chieftain Supporter

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    I agree with shulec's idea of building a Trireme in PigsGems. After a Pig Pasture and another Grassland Hill Mine is completed and the city grows, it will be able to organically build a Trireme quite quickly. We may also want to hasten it with a 1Pop whip or forest chop, if possible.

    I'd also like to send a pillaging/exploring stack through both enemies' Culture to pillage and find other Civs past their Culture. 2-3 Axemen in a stack should suffice, assuming they can stick to a forest/hill (either or) route. I'm thinking the goal will be 90% exploring and 10% pillaging (something juicy like a Copper Mine; nothing small).Contact with and location of other Civs is the goal.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  5. bcool

    bcool Chieftain

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    defense point for Hammuragawa
    I agree we should try to defend in the forest near DeerGold if possible. (This means we have to send axes up soon that way.
    trireme
    I like the idea of a trireme in PigsGems but I'm worried that it will get there late. So I definitely think we are chopping and/or whipping the trireme out.
    pillaging/exploring
    The pillaging/exploring stack will not get through Toku's lands (since by legal fog gazing we have determined that his capital is on a hill between mountains blocking access to lands east of him)

    Sending unpromoted axes (even Combat I) axes into Toku's lands is likely a death sentence for them. He will make shock axes and attack our pillaging/exploring stack opportunistically.

    I think the advantage of pillaging/exploring is low and the risk is high.

    peace
    Once we have catapults I'm all for war if we see a clear advantage. I just don't see the advantage of attempting to capture cities with no siege weapons against superior units (at least their promotions and leader traits make them superior).

     
  6. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    trireme? We don't even have fishing...much less sailing.

    Defend deergold on forest = yes

    I still want to consider attack on Osaka and others
     
  7. bcool

    bcool Chieftain

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    ah yes good point about fishing and sailing... :blush:
     
  8. mabraham

    mabraham Chieftain

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    Peacemonger! :lol: I'm all for beating up AIs, but I'm more for focussing on speeding up the VC.
     
  9. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    I can't think of anything faster at speeding up the VC. Capture and gift back city... or liberate is actually the really good option. We should do the same to that new, lightly defended city by the wheat. Our targets are all non-hill. They will go down easily.
     
  10. mabraham

    mabraham Chieftain

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    When we get an axe up north we can scout towards the wheat city and see what's defending. Maybe we can sneak past and squat on a forest to slow down reinforcements and/or scout the SOD.

    Off the top of my head, protective fortified bowmen are going to need about 3 axes each and any shock/fortified axes at least 2 axes. Similar goes for Toku, but his archers aren't anti-melee and will have culture defence in (at least) Osaka. Unless we manage to catch them with their pants down, a 100:hammers: settler for a peace-gift city 2S of wheat or 2N of sheep sounds more efficient to me than multiple axes at 32:hammers: a pop. It's particularly painful if we start to mass axes for an offensive, then scout a defensive buildup and have to abort :mad:
     
  11. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Chieftain Supporter

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    Notes:

    Turn 71 went 100% according to plan (SheepTown is now Safe provided we reinforce it with two Axemen on t72 and t73).

    No city will be banking hammers into The Pyramids in the rest of this turn set.

    Research:

    00% to build Treasury that may be needed to upgrade more Warriors to Axemen. This is now more for setting up binary research and yes maintaining a minimum balance of 80W is probably a good idea while we are still at war with not quite an adequate defense.
    t74: Res 100% Fishing -> Sailing. Sailing should be complete around t78, assuming we allow the treasury to approach 0.
    t78: Resume Writing.

    Espionage:

    4 Ept on Hammuragama. Slider will _not_ be used to increase Espionage.

    Cities:

    Delhi:
    t72: 6F, 4FC1 2F4H1C, 3F1C, 1F3H: continue Forge.
    t72: 1-N Fast Worker (Hoover) -> 1-W and builds Road on GH Mine.
    t72: 1-N Fast Worker (Karl) -> 1-W and builds Road on GH Mine.
    t72: 3-SE Fast Worker (EyeFil) -> 2-NW and preChops RS GF.
    t72: 2-SE Axeman -> 2-E.
    xfer: 2-SE Axeman to SheepTown region.
    t73: 6F, 4FC1 2F4H1C, 3F1C, 1F3H: Start Barracks.
    t73: 1-NW Fast Worker (Hoover) -> 1-S+2-W and preChops RS GF for 1t (then cancel).
    t73: 1-NW Fast Worker (Karl) -> 1-S+2-W and preChops RS GF for 1t (then cancel).
    xfer: 1-NW Fast Worker (Hoover) to PigsGems region.
    xfer: 1-NW Fast Worker (Karl) to PigsGems region.
    t74: 6F, 4FC1 2F4H1C: 3P whip Forge.
    t74: 1-SE Fast Worker (Eiffel) -> 2-W and preChops GF.
    t75: 6F, 4FC1 2F4H1C, 1F3H: Start Settler (gains 57H = 40H in overflow, 7 excess Food and 10 Hpt).
    t76: 6F, 4FC1 2F4H1C, 3F1C: Resume Barracks.
    t76: 1-SW Fast Worker (Eiffel) -> Marble (to build Road to Crab/Banana city site).
    t76: 1-SE Axeman -> 2-NW.
    t77: 6F, 4FC1 2F4H1C, 3F1C, 1F3H: Continue Barracks.
    t77: 4-S Fast Worker (Eiffel) -> build Road on RS PH Marble Quarry (2t).
    t77: 1-NW Axeman -> 2-NW.
    t78: 3-NW Axeman -> Forest choke point versus Hammuragawa's SoD.
    t79: 4-S Fast Worker (Eiffel) -> 1-W and build Road on GH (2t).
    t80: 6F, 4FC1 2F4H1C, 3F1C, 2 x 1F3H: Resume Settler (2t left).

    DeerGold City:
    t72: 5F1H, 3H8C: Interrupt Axeman; Resume and 1 Pop whip Granary.
    t72: 2-S Fast Worker (Fritz) -> 1-SE and build Road on GH (2t).
    t72: 1-N+2-W Warrior -> 1-NW (Sign post "chokepoint").
    t72: 3-NW Warrior -> 1-NW (then can choose from 2 Forests to enter Hammurabi's Culture).
    t73: 5F1H, 3H8C: Resume Axeman and complete in 1t.
    t73: 4-NW Warrior -> 1-NW, 1-W (if blocked) or retreat 1-SE; remainder of this unit's turn set determined by the player.
    t74: 2-N+3-W Warrior sentry duty remainder of turn set or determined by the player.
    t74: 5F1H, 3H8C: Start Barracks.
    t74: 3-S+1-E Fast Worker (Fritz) -> 1-NW and build Road on RS G Farm (2t).
    t74: Axeman -> 1-W.
    t75: Axeman -> 1-NW.
    t76: 2-S Fast Worker (Fritz) -> 1-NW and build Road on RS GH (2t).
    t76: Axeman -> 1-NW.
    t77: Axeman moves based on player judgement for remainder of turn set (explore or retreat back to Forest chokepoint.
    t74: 5F1H, 3H8C, 3F1C: Continue Barracks.
    t78: 1-SW Fast Worker (Fritz) -> 1-NW and build Road on RS G (2t).

    SheepTown:
    t72: 5F2C: Start Granary
    t72: 1-N+2-W Axeman -> 1-S+2-W into SheepTown.
    t72: 4 Axemen fortify (C1Med1 10% F, 3 x NP 5% F).
    t72: 3-W Fast Worker -> 2-N+1-E and builds Mine 4t.
    t73: 1-N+2-W Axeman -> 1-S+2-W into SheepTown.
    t73: 5 Axemen fortify (C1Med1 15% F, 3 x NP 10% F, NP).
    t74: Axemen kill 1-2 survivors of Tokugawa's attack, using at most 2 Axeman for "suicide/damage" attacks or more by player judgement there's no risk of losing SheepTown; try to gain a total of 5 XP with each counter attack.
    t74: other Axemen heal until fully recovered.
    t74: 1 Axeman -> CowTown to attack pesky enemy Scouts that land on Deer Camp or any plot in range.
    t74: 1 Axeman (highest XP) -> Forest choke point versus Hammuragawa's SoD.
    t75: Axemen on Gold Mine -> City to heal.
    t76: 5F2C, 3H8C: Continue Granary.

    CowTown:
    t72: 4F2H: continue Axeman to completion in 2t.
    t74: 4F2H, 4F2H: Start Granary.
    t74: Axeman -> 1-SW.
    t75: 1-SW Axeman -> 2-W.
    xfer: 1-SW Axeman to Delhi region.
    t7x: 4F2H, 4F2H, 2F1H: Continue Granary.

    PigsGems:
    t72: 2F1H7C: Continues Axeman until completed (chopped).
    t74: 1-SW Fast Worker (Hoover) -> 1-NW and builds Pasture on GH Pig for 2t.
    t74: 1-SW Fast Worker (Karl) -> 1-NW and builds Pasture on GH Pig for 2t.
    t75: 5F1H, 2F1H7C: Continue Axeman.
    t76: 1-SW Fast Worker (Hoover) -> 1-NW and builds Road on GH Pig Pasture for 1t.
    t76: 1-SW Fast Worker (Karl) -> 1-NW and builds Road on GH Pig Pasture for 1t.
    t77: 1-NW Fast Worker (Hoover) -> 1-SE and Chops RS GF into Axeman, completing it.
    t77: 1-NW Fast Worker (Karl) -> 1-SE and builds Farm on RS G (5t).
    t78: 5F1H, 2F1H7C: Resume Granary.
    t78: Axeman -> Forest choke point versus Hammuragawa's SoD.
    t78: 1-NW Fast Worker (Hoover) -> 1-SE and builds Farm on RS G (2t), joining Karl's efforts to effect same.
    t80: 5F1H, 2F1H7C, 3F1C: Continue Granary.

    Final Notes:

    Please let me know the changes you would like. I'd like to play the first 2t ASAP, since that second turn will tell us how much more of a pain Tokugawa's stack will be and how many Axeman we will lose in his attack and our counter-attack.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  12. DanF5771

    DanF5771 Chieftain

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    Sorry about the Trireme/Sailing confusion. I was about to write something regarding techs, when RL pulled me away from the keyboard.

    We might very well get Sailing (or Writing) from Toku in a peace deal. There is an interesting section of code in CvTeamAI::AI_endWarVal() for games with AggAI on, that divides the EndWarValue by 3 for the player with the lower number of 'endangered' cities. City danger requires the presence of hostile units (also Barbs!) within the 5x5 square around a city, i.e. if we move an Axe to the Sheep, we'll put Osaka 'in danger'. There is more strange looking code (irrespective of AggAI) for potentially beneficial scaling of the EndWarValue depending on the kind of war Toku started (total or limited). In case he went for the total war, we might even get some bigger techs.

    The problem with early peace and early Sailing for the Trireme is Toku's rather high RefuseToTalkWarThreshold = 10. Since he started the war and thus doubled the initial RefuseDuration up to 20 turns, the reduction for better war success will only bring it down to about 15 turns. Toku's DoW was T68, that means he will probably not talk to us until ~T83. :(
    T83 is most likely too late to start production of a Trireme that is meant to scout Hammu's SoD.

    Hmmm... I can't pass a clear opinion re tech choice yet. Perhaps a quick Fishing for a Work Boat scout, then resume Writing->Math for Pyramids-chops and Sailing/Alpha(?) later in peace deal?
     
  13. DanF5771

    DanF5771 Chieftain

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    Fifth Element has a 860 AD save, I'm not familiar with the usual procedure -- will there be some kind of announcement when a team finishes the game?

    I believe this game will go >1000 AD, the double-DoW set us and most likely the other teams back. Therefore we should value mid- and long-term World Wonders higher, especially Mids and Great Library.
    I wonder if building Barracks in Delhi is that rewarding, we don't want continuous streams of military from our capital. I'd like to focus on Mids and AP there instead, I'd also like to choose a different city to build the Settler for the 6th city.

    So current & mid term goals are imho:
    • efficient defense benefitting from culture and fortification -> good war success ratios to enable us to squeeze out good techs in peace deals
    • scouting by WB/Trireme and later Spies
    • building the mentioned wonders to get upper hand in relation to seemingly boxed in neighbors
    • getting up new coastal cities without hurry (iirc AI doesn't put Settlers on Galleys during war)
     
  14. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    No. Guesses are the only mean to know. For instance, in the past SGOTM, Phoenix Rising wasn't updating their game for awhile; from this we guessed that was the ending save.
     
  15. mabraham

    mabraham Chieftain

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    Indeed. Also, the last save uploaded is not shown if the game is complete, so you have a nominally open-ended estimate of when they completed.
     
  16. DanF5771

    DanF5771 Chieftain

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    okay, thanks Tachy & mabraham. :)
     
  17. mabraham

    mabraham Chieftain

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    I think the PPP is good. I like the existing axemen and granary plans, and prefer a barracks only in DeerGold so we can have Delhi focus on Pyramids and then AP.

    There's no need to rush fishing unless we are then going to rush the workboat. If PigGems still has an axe and a granary to build, it seems we won't be rushing a workboat. So aiming at Maths first seems to make the most sense to me.

    Yeah I like this general approach. Conquering Gawas doesn't do much towards setting us up for a possible pathological endgame that requires Astro and an amphibious invasion to create Hindu cities to gift back.
     
  18. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Chieftain Supporter

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    I will incorporate PPP feedback from DanF5771 and mabraham ASAP. However, I'm sure that prioritizing Mathematics over Sailing is not a good choice. In my opinion, our Research should be one of the following paths:

    Fishing -> Sailing -> Writing -> Mathematics

    Fishing -> Writing -> Sailing -> Mathematics

    Writing -> Fishing -> Sailing -> Mathematics

    The latter is probably best, since we can build Libraries in Cities with Gold/Gems Mines plus a minor operation of Opening Borders with subsequently contacted Civs. We will need Fishing for our cities with Crab and Fish in their BFC. Our strategy requires damaged Triremes and we need to build them soon while we are still at War with Hammuragawa and Tokugawa and thus Sailing must be completed soon. Mathematics can wait after Sailing.

    Anyone else having other suggested changes please post them ASAP.

    Thanks,

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  19. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Agree with writing first. It's a fast tech because of the huge multipliers we get from pre-reqs.
    I suppose math can wait since we've chopped so much already.
     
  20. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Chieftain Supporter

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    Notes:

    Turn 71 went 100% according to plan (SheepTown is now Safe provided we reinforce it with two Axemen on t72 and t73).

    Changes are in DarkRed when I have noticed them retroactively.

    Delhi will be banking hammers into The Pyramids on t73, t75-t79 (end of the turn set).

    Worker Eiffel has all new instructions.

    This PPP incorporates suggested changes by DanF5771 and mabrahams with the exception of Research path; if the team really wants Writing -> Mathematics, I will put that in instead.

    A major part of the original t72-t79 is based on an earlier post from bcool with some great suggestions. Thanks!


    Research:

    t72: Res 100% Writing at 39 Bpt and -18 Wpt.
    t73: Res 100% Writing at 39 Bpt and -18 Wpt.
    t74: Res 50% Writing at 19 Bpt and 0 Wpt.
    t75: Res 00% Fishing at 0 Bpt and +19 Wpt.
    t76: Res 100% Fishing at 48 Bpt and -18 Wpt.
    t77: Res 00% Fishing at 0 Bpt and +27 Wpt.
    t78: Res 100% Fishing at 48 Bpt and -20 Wpt.
    t79: Res 00% Sailing at 0 Bpt and +28 Wpt.
    t80: Res 100% Sailing at 48 Bpt and -19 Wpt.

    Cities:

    Delhi:

    t72: 6F, 4FC1 2F4H1C, 3F1C, 1F3H: continue Forge.
    t72: 1-N Fast Worker (Hoover) -> 1-W and builds Road on GH Mine.
    t72: 1-N Fast Worker (Karl) -> 1-W and builds Road on GH Mine.
    t72: 3-SE Fast Worker (Eiffel) -> 2-NW and preChops RS GF for 1t (then cancel).
    t72: 2-SE Axeman -> 2-E.
    xfer: 2-SE Axeman to SheepTown region.

    t73: 6F, 4FC1 2F4H1C, 3F1C, 1F3H: Start The Pyramids.
    t73: 1-NW Fast Worker (Hoover) -> 1-S+2-W and preChops RS GF for 1t (then cancel).
    t73: 1-NW Fast Worker (Karl) -> 1-S+2-W and preChops RS GF for 1t (then cancel).
    xfer: 1-NW Fast Worker (Hoover) to PigsGems region.
    xfer: 1-NW Fast Worker (Karl) to PigsGems City region.
    t73: 1-SE Fast Worker (Eiffel) -> 2-W and preChops GF.

    t74: 6F, 4FC1 2F4H1C: 3P whip Forge.

    t75: 6F, 4FC1 2F4H1C, 1F3H: Start Settler (gains 57H = 40H in overflow, 7 excess Food and 10 Hpt).
    t75: 1-SW Fast Worker (Eiffel) -> 2-E and preChops RS GF for 1t (completing the preChop).

    t76: 6F, 4FC1 2F4H1C, 3F1C: Resume The Pyramids.
    t76: 1-SE Fast Worker (Eiffel) -> 1-S+2-E and Mines GH for 1t (then cancel).
    xfer: : 1-SE Fast Worker (Eiffel) to CowTown region.
    t76: 1-SE Axeman -> 2-NW.

    t77: 6F, 4FC1 2F4H1C, 3F1C, 1F3H: Continue The Pyramids.
    t77: 1-NW Axeman -> 2-NW.

    t78: 3-NW Axeman -> Forest choke point versus Hammuragawa's SoD.

    t80: 6F, 4FC1 2F4H1C, 3F1C, 2 x 1F3H: Continue The Pyramids.

    DeerGold City:

    t72: 5F1H, 3H8C: Interrupt Axeman; Resume and 1 Pop whip Granary.
    t72: 2-S Fast Worker (Fritz) -> 1-SE and build Road on GH (2t).
    t72: 1-N+2-W Warrior -> 1-NW (Sign post "chokepoint").
    t72: 3-NW Warrior -> 1-NW (then can choose from 2 Forests to enter Hammurabi's Culture).

    t73: 5F1H, 3H8C: Resume Axeman and complete in 1t.
    t73: 4-NW Warrior -> 1-NW, 1-W (if blocked) or retreat 1-SE; remainder of this unit's turn set determined by the player.

    t74: 5F1H, 3H8C: Start Barracks.
    t74: 2-N+3-W Warrior sentry duty remainder of turn set or determined by the player.
    t74: 3-S+1-E Fast Worker (Fritz) -> 1-NW and build Road on RS G Farm (2t).
    t74: Axeman -> 1-W.

    t75: Axeman -> 1-NW.

    t76: 2-S Fast Worker (Fritz) -> 1-NW and build Road on RS GH (2t).
    t76: Axeman -> 1-NW.

    t77: Axeman moves based on player judgement for remainder of turn set (explore or retreat back to Forest chokepoint.
    t78: 5F1H, 3H8C, 3F1C: Continue Barracks.
    t78: 1-SW Fast Worker (Fritz) -> 1-NW and build Road on RS G (2t).

    SheepTown:

    t72: 5F2C: Start Granary
    t72: 1-N+2-W Axeman -> 1-S+2-W into SheepTown.
    t72: 4 Axemen fortify (C1Med1 10% F, 3 x NP 5% F).
    t72: 3-W Fast Worker -> 2-N+1-E and builds Mine 4t.

    t73: 1-N+2-W Axeman -> 1-S+2-W into SheepTown.
    t73: 5 Axemen fortify (C1Med1 15% F, 3 x NP 10% F, NP).

    t74: Axemen kill 1-2 survivors of Tokugawa's attack, using at most 2 Axeman for "suicide/damage" attacks or more by player judgement there's no risk of losing SheepTown; try to gain a total of 5 XP with each counter attack.
    t74: other Axemen heal until fully recovered.
    t74: 1 Axeman -> CowTown to attack pesky enemy Scouts that land on Deer Camp or any plot in range.
    t74: 1 Axeman (highest XP) -> Forest choke point versus Hammuragawa's SoD.

    t75: Axemen on Gold Mine -> City to heal.

    t76: 5F2C, 3H8C: Continue Granary.

    CowTown:

    t72: 4F2H: continue Axeman to completion in 2t.

    t74: 4F2H, 4F2H: Start Granary.
    t74: Axeman -> 1-SW.

    t75: 1-SW Axeman -> 2-W.
    xfer: 1-SW Axeman to Delhi region.

    t77: 2-S+1-W Fast Worker (Eiffel) -> 1-NE and Mines GH for 4t (completing it).

    t78: 4F2H, 4F2H, 2F1H: Continue Granary.

    PigsGems:

    t72: 2F1H7C: Continues Axeman until completed (chopped).

    t74: 1-SW Fast Worker (Hoover) -> 1-NW and builds Pasture on GH Pig for 2t.
    t74: 1-SW Fast Worker (Karl) -> 1-NW and builds Pasture on GH Pig for 2t.

    t75: 5F1H, 2F1H7C: Continue Axeman.

    t76: 1-SW Fast Worker (Hoover) -> 1-NW and builds Road on GH Pig Pasture for 1t.
    t76: 1-SW Fast Worker (Karl) -> 1-NW and builds Road on GH Pig Pasture for 1t.

    t77: 1-NW Fast Worker (Hoover) -> 1-SE and Chops RS GF into Axeman, completing it.
    t77: 1-NW Fast Worker (Karl) -> 1-SE and builds Farm on RS G (5t).

    t78: 5F1H, 2F1H7C: Resume Granary.
    t78: Axeman -> Forest choke point versus Hammuragawa's SoD.
    t78: 1-NW Fast Worker (Hoover) -> 1-SE and builds Farm on RS G (2t), joining Karl's efforts to effect same.

    t80: 5F1H, 2F1H7C, 3F1C: Continue Granary.

    Final Notes:

    Please let me know the changes you would like. I'd like to play the first 2t ASAP, since that second turn will tell us how much more of a pain Tokugawa's stack will be and how many Axeman we will lose in his attack and our counter-attack.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     

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