SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

[DanF5771]

PPP looks very good, mabraham.

Just one thing: I'd rather not give Toku our Stone (or actually any resources) -- he has Math and might build Hanging Gardens with it, a World Wonder we might want to build ourselves(?).

Good Luck!!

 

[mabraham]

PPP looks very good, mabraham.

Just one thing: I'd rather not give Toku our Stone (or actually any resources) -- he has Math and might build Hanging Gardens with it, a World Wonder we might want to build ourselves(?).

Good Luck!!

I think the theory is that we might be too late to start HG, given we have no aqueduct (plan) yet and I think all the AIs we know have Maths. Toku's probably still in some kind of a war build-up mode, and has chopped a lot of forests near Osaka (and thus probably elsewhere too) so I'd expect the chance of him finishing HG is pretty low. The chance of a relevant diplo benefit is also low, of course. I'll compromise and gift only Deer and Marble for now, and stone if HG is built.

 

[mabraham]

T91 Nothing happening. Hammu has two clams for me to pillage, and an ocean fish I can't Research build in SheepTown is necessary and sufficient for Maths next turn.

T92 Maths done, started IW 0%, first chop completes. All quiet. After some tile counting for Magellan and Ferry, Magellan is taking the faster northern route to the island. Cook (1XP) will be the MP in DeerGold and one of the 0XP axes coming in from SheepTown will be able to load onto Ferry to be the island explorer. Slightly better for maximising barb and Hammu XP return, I feel.

T93 Shwedagon Paya BIADL. Met Hatsegawa, who found us with two scouts through Toku's culture. She has Constr. Gifted her Medi per PPP, got +4 with no OB available, as expected. Pillaged a clam from Hammu and found a tiny stack in his capital (2 axes, sword and archer). Then I screwed up the AP chopping micro and chopped 3N1W of Delhi with the wrong worker The other three workers still have movement, but there is no way to recover from this and get a T94 AP. I am very sorry Will break now for dinner and resume in an hour or two. Screenshots here https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B77WqgqXtbSKdkRWTEdreDRTdHl3bEw2R3Z2ZTFQQQ. Some of them did not work properly, I'm sorry. There should have been a series of the Hatse dialogue, and a mouse-over of the Babylon stack

 

[mabraham]

Ack! I muffed the chopping micro for T94 AP. T95 still fine, of course. Stopping for dinner and to re-plan workers. Uploaded save http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm15/Kakumeika_SG015_BC0550_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 625 BC to 550 BC:

Turn 90, 625 BC: Crabsville has been founded.

Turn 91, 600 BC: Delhi has grown to size 7.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Deergold City has grown to size 6.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Deergold City has become unhappy.
Turn 91, 600 BC: CowTown has grown to size 5.
Turn 91, 600 BC: SheepTown will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 91, 600 BC: PigsGems will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Shakagawa refuses to talk.
Turn 91, 600 BC: You are the worst enemy of Tokugawa, Hammuragawa, Shakagawa.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Hammuragawa will trade Iron Working, Mathematics
Turn 91, 600 BC: Will Sign Peace Treaty: Hammuragawa
Turn 91, 600 BC: SheepTown will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 91, 600 BC: PigsGems will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Shakagawa refuses to talk.
Turn 91, 600 BC: You are the worst enemy of Tokugawa, Hammuragawa, Shakagawa.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Hammuragawa will trade Iron Working, Mathematics
Turn 91, 600 BC: Will Sign Peace Treaty: Hammuragawa
Turn 91, 600 BC: SheepTown will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 91, 600 BC: PigsGems will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 91, 600 BC: You have discovered Mathematics!

Turn 92, 575 BC: SheepTown has grown to size 3.
Turn 92, 575 BC: PigsGems has grown to size 4.
Turn 92, 575 BC: PigsGems can hurry Galley for 2⇴ with 21ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 22 turns.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Delhi.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Shakagawa refuses to talk.
Turn 92, 575 BC: You are the worst enemy of Tokugawa, Hammuragawa, Shakagawa.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Hammuragawa will trade Iron Working
Turn 92, 575 BC: Will Sign Peace Treaty: Hammuragawa
Turn 92, 575 BC: Shwedagon Paya has been built in a far away land!

Turn 93, 550 BC: You have plundered 6ℴ from the Fishing Boats!
Turn 93, 550 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 24 ℤ for Delhi.

 

[DanF5771]

Well played. T95 AP will be fine.

So the Capitals indeed have a Castle.

Hatse also appears land-locked (no Galleys in F5). But he has Horses and Ivory ...
Let's hope he won't trade it to Toku ...

Tech pace is amazing for Emperor no-tech-brokering.
Hatse has Gems.

 

[mabraham]

Well played. T95 AP will be fine.

You're too kind I will claim second sight if we need the one-turn delay to get our AP vote strong enough

So the Capitals indeed have a Castle.

Hatse also appears land-locked (no Galleys in F5). But he has Horses and Ivory ...
Let's hope he won't trade it to Toku ...

Tech pace is amazing for Emperor no-tech-brokering.
Hatse has Gems.

If we start seeing horse/phant units then we really might want that Hindu-gift for AP-peace.

I have reworked the worker and city plan. It is very much in the spirit of the final ppp, so I will play on now until the presumed AP stopping point.

fritz
t93 finish chop 1s of deergold
t94-5 finish chop 1w of deergold
t96-7 road 1w of deergold
t98 move to 1s2e of deergold
t99-101 chop

hoover
t93 chop 2N2E of delhi
t94 chop 1N2E of delhi
t95-6 road cows
t97-8 road 1N2E of Delhi
t99 finish cottage 1n1e of delhi(?)
t100 improve 1se of delhi
t101 head for sheepgold

evil karl
t93 erroneous chop 3n1w already complete
t94 chop 2n of delhi
t95-6 cottage 1n1e of delhi
t97 chop 1se of delhi
t98 joins settler for exile on island

eiffel
t93 move to marble
t94-6 chop 1w of clamville
t97 move 1n of clamville and mine
t98-100 chop 2n1e of clamville to finish granary at 6/24 food

delhi
t95 ap completes, start settler
t97 last chop arrives
t98 settler completes, start monastery
t99 monastery completes, start templ
t100 temple completes

deergold
t94 library completes, start temple
t95 temple completes, start monastery
t96 monastery completes, start archer
t98 archer completes, start archer
t99 archer completes, start spy?

 

[mabraham]

T93 Shaka has Currency. Hatse can't trade us IW, so she only just got it.

T94 Oh gods... the nightmare continues. For some reason CowTown had control of the forest 1N2E of Delhi and I didn't think to check that (and nobody reminded me to check, but much more my fault that yours...). So the chop went to CowTown Someone up there likes us though, because the last available chop got us to enough hammers that I could switch off the FPfarm onto the Gforest to get the last necessary hammer for T95 AP. hew:

Hammu brought a stack to the wheat tile - 3 swords and 2 axes with only combat and CR upgrades. Cook has arrived to relieve the MP, so we will have two fully-fortified axes that will be able to get Woodsman I promos, and one unfortified axe likewise. That'll be heaps to deal with the "stack" so no need to stop on that account.

Having landed an axe and started to move around the island, it looks useful.

T95 AP complete. No contacts. No other members. So at this stage there will be no vote in 10 turns, because there can be none. So the next resident election will be accelerated. No need to pause at this stage.

Hammu is following up with a single C2 axe. Have three Woodsman I axes defending the choke, Amundsen on the way and Cook hedging on the forest deer tile, since the temple is keeping DeerGold happy for the moment.

Western island is smallish. Corn on far side. No site gets corn and sheep. There is a further island beyond the corn, but (so far) it cannot be reached by early-game boats. We will get full map knowledge, including IW, for the settling decision.

Toku has a few axes and a spear in a stack, but no sign of cats yet. Sneaky hasn't died in my hands yet, which is rather surprising.

T96 Met Genghigawa, gifted Mono, got +4 fair trade. Hindu spread to Crabsville. Genghi lacks Maths, everyone else now has Constr, so our power ratings took a dive. We have met none of the wonder-building AIs, nor the team. This is looking scary. Several have Currency already, so that may be useful at trade time. Presumably the Buddhism-fest is helping the AIs want to gift around their techs?

Hammu didn't attack our forest stack. He brought his follow-up C2 axe to the same tile, so he has three axes and three swords with a mix of C2 and CR1 upgrades. He has a settler-axe-sword group following up 1W of wheat. Cook could reinforce our stack this turn, but I don't think he wants to. Advice?

Amundsen could move to be one tile from our stack, but maybe Toku is more of a threat. He has a decent bunch of units milling around, and the first catapult I have seen has just built in Osaka. As expected, Toku's capital has a castle and is in a mountain chokepoint. It even has flanking rivers to make life extra painful. Neil has gone out hard to make life tough on the warmongers.

We will have a settler whipped out of CowsTown next turn that needs a mission in life. He could head to the island, or to fish-marble or to be the Toku gift. If he goes to the island, we'll have a city for the sheep and a city for the corn. While a city on the corn would pop a border to allow us to explore further west, I don't think this is necessary or desirable given our plan for Optics. Toku's galley went off the radar T93 heading east into his culture. I think fish-marble makes the most sense. We have a spare missionary idling for the moment.

Save is uploaded http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm15/Kakumeika_SG015_BC0475_01.CivBeyondSwordSave. Some screenshots are here - I have no idea why the game overlays for unit stacks are not working https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B77WqgqXtbSKTXVsODhQUzdRRXVnMTJzUjRSRHZEZw

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 550 BC to 475 BC:


Turn 94, 525 BC: CowTown has grown to size 6.
Turn 94, 525 BC: PigsGems has grown to size 3.
Turn 94, 525 BC: PigsGems can hurry Trireme for 1⇴ with 4ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 30 turns.
Turn 94, 525 BC: Hammuragawa will trade Construction
Turn 94, 525 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for CowTown.
Turn 94, 525 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Delhi.
Turn 94, 525 BC: You have plundered 6ℴ from the Fishing Boats!
Turn 94, 525 BC: Shakagawa refuses to talk.
Turn 94, 525 BC: You are the worst enemy of Tokugawa, Hammuragawa, Shakagawa.
Turn 94, 525 BC: Hammuragawa will trade Construction, Iron Working
Turn 94, 525 BC: Will Sign Peace Treaty: Hammuragawa
Turn 94, 525 BC: Shakagawa refuses to talk.
Turn 94, 525 BC: You are the worst enemy of Tokugawa, Hammuragawa, Shakagawa.
Turn 94, 525 BC: Hammuragawa will trade Construction, Iron Working
Turn 94, 525 BC: Will Sign Peace Treaty: Hammuragawa
Turn 94, 525 BC: Leaders of Hinduism have a vision of uniting all Hindu faithful under the The Apostolic Palace.
Turn 94, 525 BC: Gandhi has completed The Apostolic Palace!

Turn 95, 500 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Deergold City!
Turn 95, 500 BC: Hammuragawa has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 95, 500 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Deergold City.
Turn 95, 500 BC: PigsGems will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 95, 500 BC: Hammuragawa has 40 gold available for trade.
Turn 95, 500 BC: Shakagawa refuses to talk.
Turn 95, 500 BC: You are the worst enemy of Tokugawa, Hammuragawa, Shakagawa.
Turn 95, 500 BC: Hammuragawa will trade Construction, Iron Working
Turn 95, 500 BC: Will Sign Peace Treaty: Hammuragawa
Turn 95, 500 BC: PigsGems will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 95, 500 BC: Hammuragawa has 40 gold available for trade.
Turn 95, 500 BC: Shakagawa refuses to talk.
Turn 95, 500 BC: You are the worst enemy of Tokugawa, Hammuragawa, Shakagawa.
Turn 95, 500 BC: Hammuragawa will trade Construction, Iron Working
Turn 95, 500 BC: Will Sign Peace Treaty: Hammuragawa
Turn 95, 500 BC: PigsGems will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 95, 500 BC: Hinduism has spread in Crabsville.
Turn 95, 500 BC: The Apostolic Palace voting members have announced their decision: Apostolic Palace Election (Winner Proposes Apostolic Palace Resolutions) (Requires 20 of 50 Total Votes)

Turn 96, 475 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Deergold City!
Turn 96, 475 BC: Delhi can hurry Settler for 2⇴ with 22ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 17 turns.
Turn 96, 475 BC: CowTown can hurry Settler for 3⇴ with 38ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 14 turns.
Turn 96, 475 BC: PigsGems has grown to size 4.
Turn 96, 475 BC: You have plundered 6ℴ from the Fishing Boats!
Turn 96, 475 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Crabsville.

Stopping play for now. If possible I might continue in 10 or 16 hours time depending on the state of the discussion.

 

[DanF5771]

Good job securing the AP, mabraham.
We are number 1 in MFG. But GNP of leading AI looks quite scary!

There is a further island beyond the corn, but (so far) it cannot be reached by early-game boats. We will get full map knowledge, including IW, for the settling decision.

It is not an island -- it's the prolonged peak ridge west of Hammu's lands I was talking about earlier (similar to the peak ridge to our south). And these western peak tiles also belong to our continent, because Babylon's culture extends further than 2 tiles from the land into the Ocean. So Argo might run into another dead end...

Caravels probably won't help us eastwards, the water east of Kyoto is a lake (fresh water).

 

[DanF5771]

Rough plan:

I consider it best to butter Hammu up now and liberate 2 cities as long as it's possible for the permanent +3.

We should load two Settlers on our Galley and move it to the tile 1SW of Nippur while still at war with Hammu, then unload the Settlers to the tile 2W of Nippur and make peace with him.
We need a Spy (from DeerGold?) in that area first to make sure Shaka doesn't have any units there, threatening to kill our Settlers.

The first Settler should quickly move to the peak pocket 3N or 3N1E of Nippur, the second to 3W1S of Nippur. We'll be at +7 -> pleased with Hammu once both cities are liberated to him.
Then we can get open borders and can spread Hindu to one of his cities at ease with a Missionary.

In order to make peace we need some war success (maybe Hammu suicides some units) or the threat advantage (our Axes on the forest tile will automatically put his new city in danger if he founds it 2S of the Wheat). But to make sure maybe it's better to get a 2nd Galley that can load an Axe for endangering Nippur (and a Missionary).

Nice to have, but probably unrealistic: We could also try to get HG and time the liberation after we get the +1pop which could be whipped into something useful.

Edit re HG: Kyoto has an Aqueduct...

 

[DanF5771]

T96 Met Genghigawa, gifted Mono, got +4 fair trade. Hindu spread to Crabsville. Genghi lacks Maths, everyone else now has Constr, so our power ratings took a dive.

How did we meet Genghis, is he to our north as well?

more edits:
Just found out that thanks to the little lake at the river bend near DeerGold Hammu will have to 'cross a river' when attacking our fortified Axes in the forest, i.e. we get the additional +25% defense bonus.
I didn't know that.

 

[bcool]

I really think we should gift the city to Toku and spread Hinduism to it before he declares war on us again. We can't rely on random spread or I don't want to because I want useful AP options asap.

I think we should whip another settler out of DeerGold and use that to gift to Hammy and spread Hinduism to it as well. Perhaps whipping out a Hindu missionary out of PigsGems to go with it. (or use the overflow in CowTown to finish another missionary. Perhaps something along the lines of DanF's suggestions.

I think we should settle the island with the settler out of Delhi for the trade route bonus.

If we have 2 AI in as members then we have significant options for the AP. We can have Hammy and Toku declare war on the other AI that might be called into war with us. That will allow us to open borders to both of them, then we can perhaps give another city to Hammy for the additional liberation bonus.

Opening borders with both Hammy and Toku will let us begin the flood of city gifts and hinduism spreads to the other AI perhaps.

I think we should put 1 turn on construction, then see if IW is up for trade. Then trade for or finish Iron Working if we can't trade for it, and then try to finish construction.

We need construction not only for the ability to build catapults, but also to increase our power rating.

It also might make sense to whip the settler in Delhi next turn (and use the overflow on a monastery).

 

[mabraham]

Shaka has an axe and an archer just north of Babylon, so we have to presume he could have units anywhere in Hammu's lands.

Sorry, didn't look to see how we met Genghis. Didn't see a unit movement IBT that I recall, and I had show moves on.

 

[mabraham]

I really think we should gift the city to Toku and spread Hinduism to it before he declares war on us again. We can't rely on random spread or I don't want to because I want useful AP options asap.

I think we should whip another settler out of DeerGold and use that to gift to Hammy and spread Hinduism to it as well. Perhaps whipping out a Hindu missionary out of PigsGems to go with it. (or use the overflow in CowTown to finish another missionary. Perhaps something along the lines of DanF's suggestions.

I think we should settle the island with the settler out of Delhi for the trade route bonus.

If we have 2 AI in as members then we have significant options for the AP. We can have Hammy and Toku declare war on the other AI that might be called into war with us. That will allow us to open borders to both of them, then we can perhaps give another city to Hammy for the additional liberation bonus.

I like this general approach. Various details are negotiable, of course.

 

[DanF5771]

Shaka has an axe and an archer just north of Babylon, so we have to presume he could have units anywhere in Hammu's lands.

true, it's a bit risky.

4. Open Borders
Prerequisite: The Resident or a Full Member currently does not have an Open Border treaty with one or more Full Members.
If passed, all Members now have Open Borders with each other.

Would we really require someone else to be a Full Member (Hindu as State Religion) for this resolution?
In a quick test this was not necessary. Toku and Hammu were still Buddhists but voting members due to 1 city with Hindu and the OB-vote came up... and succeeded.

 

[shulec]

Shaka has an axe and an archer just north of Babylon, so we have to presume he could have units anywhere in Hammu's lands.

Sorry, didn't look to see how we met Genghis. Didn't see a unit movement IBT that I recall, and I had show moves on.

All the Gawa's have met except for Hatty- and Hamaragawa. Based on relations with each other, it almost appears as if there is a ring-like land formation with Ghengis- between Hatty- and Shakagawa.

 

[bcool]

true, it's a bit risky.

Would we really require someone else to be a Full Member (Hindu as State Religion) for this resolution?
In a quick test this was not necessary. Toku and Hammu were still Buddhists but voting members due to 1 city with Hindu and the OB-vote came up... and succeeded.

Nice find!

I think this means we should do our best to make sure both Hammy and Toku are members by the time the first vote comes up.

This means a city gift and hindu spread to Toku and to Hammy. This means peace with Hammy a few turns before the vote so we can have some time to organize a settler and missionary and some protection for them in Hammy's area.

I think accelerating the settler for the city on the island might be worth whipping the capital. That city with increase all the trades routes by 1... hmm we might get that with open borders with Toku and Hammy. Maybe whipping Delhi isn't worth it. But getting the monastery a few turns earlier too might make it worth it.

 

[mabraham]

It is not an island -- it's the prolonged peak ridge west of Hammu's lands I was talking about earlier (similar to the peak ridge to our south). And these western peak tiles also belong to our continent, because Babylon's culture extends further than 2 tiles from the land into the Ocean. So Argo might run into another dead end...

Confirmed with a test game. Each of these cities had three GArtists spammed into them.

 

[WastinTime]

Yes, OB from the AP works. Now I see the value of building the AP much sooner in this game. SunTzuWu and I should have used our best early AP opening to get this ball rolling sooner. We can also vote to get our city gifts back.

The short term goal is now to gift/liberate ASAP. We will need settler/missionary on a boat, but also need to be able to threaten a Hammu city to get peace. (might require an axe on another boat) But if the Hammu stack suicides, maybe we can threaten without a boat. Liberating one city (an re-liberating later is enough). We can drop the settler/missionary off 1S3W of Nippur.

Toku's gift goes 3N1E of Sheeptown.

 

[WastinTime]

Have PigsGems build a 2nd Galley.

I prefer to work the marble tile 2 turns while building a granary in Crabsville.

 

[WastinTime]

This means peace with Hammy a few turns before the vote so we can have some time to organize a settler and missionary and some protection for them in Hammy's area.

We have to drop off the settler/missionary before we get peace. There is no way to get a boat over there during peacetime.