SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

[mabraham]

I like the kind of worker plan bc has outlined, i.e. flood them SE, preparing for ASAP copper mine and SheepGold gold mine. I don't think we can do better than a T63 Oracle in SheepGold if we decide to do that, and think we should whip the worker T48 irrespective of our Oracle strategy. I think chopping workers out of DeerGold is unproductive. Thus:

Goals:
Build workers, settlers.
Protect settler heading to sheeptown site.

Dehli
If not building Oracle in Sheeptown
T46 Worker
T47 Whip Worker
T48 Settler
T49 Finish settler
T50 Next turnset

Prefer this

If building Oracle on Sheeptown.
T46-T48 Settler
T49-50 Build worker

Settler: No moves this turnset.

Deergold City (Formerly Bombay)
T46-48 Build Worker
T49 Finish worker, start new worker
T50 next turnset.

Workers
Eiffel
Move to Deer, build camp
T46-48 Chop forest
T49-50 Move 1S1E, chop forest.

I prefer bc's plan of moving to the copper.

Fritz
T49-50 Move 1S and chop.

Warriors
Amundson
Fortify for third turn, expect lion attack.

Burke
Fortify on Choke spot.

Cook
Move to choke spot NW of Deergold City

De Soto (new warrior)
T46 Fortify on Marble
T47 Move 1E if no risk from lion or bear.
T48-50 Support Amundson, prepare for settler escort.

Research
PH=>Wheel
Binary research.
If we build the Oracle in Dehli, should we research Wheel=>PH

bc reports building a road on the copper T50, which I do not think is possible. Assuming that it isn't, then any plan that gets TW by T51 is useful. Best is to research PH at 0% on T46 to commit our overflow to PH (where we have a multiplier), then TW on 100%. The gold we get on T46 is just enough in the test game to get all the beakers for TW in four more turns (and we know the real game is a smaller map, so we're even more OK?). In the test game this gets us one extra beaker on PH by the time we've put the overflow from TW on PH in each case.

Civics
Adopt slavery if needed.

Espionage
Always on Hamuragawa.

Stopping points:
WHEOOHRN
Meet a new AI.
A dilemma regarding animals or barbs.
An info that breaks the planned game.
Oracle built by AI.
Resource popping on a mined hill.

Miscellaneous:
Look for AI culture in satellite view
Save game
Note (using Alt+S) forest/jungle growth, animals/barbs appearing etc.
Take screenshots if interesting developments.

The ppp above chops two of Deergold's forests.

It uses the whip before the settler destined for Sheeptown is finished, which slows that settler by one turn.

If we want Sheeptown to build the Oracle, we don't want to whip.

Does anyone favor a different chopping pattern in Deergold?
Do we want to build the Oracle in Dehli or Sheeptown?
If we whip in Dehli, what do we build to regrow? One turn TGW, then Oracle?
If we build the Oracle in Dehli, do we want to research wheel first?

I favour no chopping in Deergold, don't mind whether we do T62 Oracle in Delhi or T63 Oracle in Sheepgold. We will not have finished PH until at least T55, so what we build after the settler is moot at this point. I think TW first is right regardless of the Oracle plan. PH first was necessary for the 6-worker T62 Oracle in Sheepgold, but we are unprepared to commit all the resources necessary for that, and PH first is not necessary for a T63 Oracle in Sheepgold.

 

[bcool]

I agree we need to keep the game going, and I think we made some improvements today.

I now agree with the whip in Delhi and I agree we want to avoid chops in DeerGold

I think WastinTime's plan to build the settler in DeerGold is a good one as well.

I fixed my worker micro to avoid the situation mabraham describes (I'm not sure why I had the wheel research in my test game, it is impossible by T50), however if you farm 1S2E of Delhi instead of road copper the plan still works.

So yes research PH at 0% then TW at 100% for 4 turns.

So the worker micro in shulec's plan needs to modified. Move workers towards Delhi (and place 1 turn of farm 1S2E of Delhi with Eiffel as he moves down to the copper) see the detail in the prior post that I fixed.

 

[Kaitzilla]

T63 Oracle in Sheepcity sounds good to me. Focusing on the next 4 turns, I will now support no chops in DeerGold. Worker-whip and then finishing settler in Dehli also sounds fine.

I still like Oracle in Sheepcity because the culture pressure probably steals corn, increases the chance Tokugawa will DoW us, and lets us walk an army right up to his city if we decide to strike first.

 

[mabraham]

I did a spreadsheet comparison of Delhi+Sheepgold out to T65 with and without the whip of the first worker. Delhi interrupted the settler for the worker, finished the settler, (after whipping, then temporised on TGW to size 4), built another worker, temporised on TGW and granary to grow once more (to size 5 or 6 respectively) and started a settler. It got its copper mine at the earliest legal chance with Eiffel helping. Sheepgold started TGW for fail gold, switching to Oracle T55, had marble come on line T59, had the three chops put in (and built granary after Oracle in the whip case). I assumed the existence of roads for resource benefits, but did not factor in maintenance (which decreases from the whip and increases with the new city) or trade routes. All the above is just for the purposes of a fair comparion of whipping and not whipping - in reality we'd do different things in each case.

In terms of raw output by T65 with and without whipping:
[pre]
City Delhi Sheepgold Delhi Sheepgold
Whipping? Yes Yes No No
Population 5 1 6 1
Net food 52 3 30 3
Total food 202 27 228 21
Hammers 377 170 379 156
Commerce 224 101 223 74
GPP 76 12 76 8
Oracle date T63 T64
[/pre]
Net food is the amount of extra food that went into the bin after food was eaten. Total food is all the food that wasn't converted to hammers. Hammers is all sources of hammers, including multiplier effects. Of the Delhi hammers, 112 and 100 would be fail gold in the respective cases.

The results are around what I expected. Delhi has nearly recovered - it's (re)grown more (see net food) and eaten less (see total food). Its hammers, commerce and are about even. Whipping settles SheepGold 3 turns sooner, so it has eaten more total food. It's had 3 more turns working the gold mine (and central tile) and that is reflected in the total hammers and total commerce (hammers details are complicated by what SheepGold builds pre-Oracle).

So I think we can be reasonably confident that this worker whip is showing a small profit. Because we were working pretty good tiles, the whip will return a lump of hammers early, then fall behind as more time goes on. I have the spreadsheet with details if anyone cares.

 

[bcool]

Thanks! I was wondering about that exact test. I expected we were trading food for commerce primarily and that seems like what the results indicate.

 

[shulec]

Goals:
Build workers, settlers.
Protect settler heading to sheeptown site.

Dehli
T46 Worker
T47 Whip Worker
T48 Settler
T49 Finish settler
T50 Next turnset

Settler: No moves this turnset.

Deergold City (Formerly Bombay)
T46-48 Build Worker
T49 Finish worker, start workerstart settler
T50 next turnset.

Workers
Eiffel
T46 move 2S2E
T47 move 3S2E
T48 move 2S2E, build farm one turn, cancel
T49 Move 1S1W to copper, mine
T50 Next turnset

Hoover form Dehli
T48 move 2S1E to bronze and mine
T49 mine
T50 next turnset

Fritz form Deergold
T49 move 2S2E
T50 next turnset


Warriors
Amundson
Fortify for third turn, expect lion attack.

Burke
Fortify on Choke spot.

Cook
Move to choke spot NW of Deergold City

De Soto (new warrior)
T46 Fortify on Marble
T47 Move 1E if no risk from lion or bear.
T48-50 Support Amundson, prepare for settler escort.

Research
PH one turn at 0% research=>Wheel
Binary research.

Civics
Adopt slavery T47

Espionage
Always on Hamuragawa.

Pausing points for online consideration:
Meet a new AI.
Resource popping on a mined hill.
A dilemma regarding animals or barbs.

Stopping Point:
Info that breaks the planned game.
Oracle built by AI.
WHEOOHRN

Miscellaneous:
Look for AI culture in satellite view
Save game
Note (using Alt+S) forest/jungle growth, animals/barbs appearing etc.
Take screenshots if interesting developments.

 

[shulec]

I hope to play in about 27 hours from this post. Please give approval to PPP.

 

[bcool]

PPP looks good, but shouldn't we switch espionage to Tokugawa? We expect war with him not Hamuragawa.

 

[shulec]

I think it is too late to get enough EP points for a city revolt if we need to get by a Toku castle. If we need them, we will need to use the slider. Won't it be more beneficial to see Hammarabi research at some point?

 

[mabraham]

PPP looks good shulec, thanks!

I'm happy with EPs on Hammy for research vision, because I don't think we'll get enough to get a revolt on Kyoto, or city vision, or indeed use a strategy that wants either of those.

Capturing Kyoto would be nice, but I don't see it happening on a time scale that will have a net positive effect on our VC. Defending our front, capturing Osaka, pillaging lands and sending some emissary military units to the far side to meet neighbours, and invoking AP pagan wars for diplo benefits all sounds pretty good value for hammers to me. As the victory date approaches we decide whether to get Hinduism to Toku (gift city in peace settlement), or kill him (we keep shared war bonus for a time after he is dead).

The one thing that bothers me is the effect that war against Toku has on trade routes along the coastline. Kyoto will presumably pop a border onto the coast eventually (already?), and if we are at war then spontaneous Hindu spread cannot occur through a coastal "trade route" that a tile owned by a party hostile to us or the distant AI. This effect might be of any size at all depending on the geography and barb city spawns.

Speaking of barb city spawns, I saw one T56 SW of gems in the test game, which would be very irritating. All the more reason to get a settler from DeerGold soon.

 

[WastinTime]

I thought we were strongly considering a settler in DeerGold after the worker.
Otherwise. I approve.

 

[bcool]

Ah I missed that, yes I agree we should change it to settler in DeerGold after the next worker. (edit yes T49 settler starts)

 

[mabraham]

Yes, T49 settler starts in DeerGold.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

PPP looks good, shulec!

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[shulec]

T46
Amundson victorious.
Japanese archer moves in next to other lion.
No risk associated with other moves.
Bear seems to have disappeared.

Spoiler :

T47
Amundson does not promote.

T48
Toku archer goes away from Lion.
Toku founds third city, Tokyo, south 3S of corn.

Spoiler :

T49
Toku archer sees warrior. Will he attack?

Spoiler :

T50
Toku did us a favor and killed warrior.
Lion still in the hunt. We will probably have to face him with a Combat II Amundson from ghill.
Not much happened this turnset.
I got carried away and moved Cook toward the Chokepoint on this turn.

Spoiler :

 

[shulec]

Save posted.

Spoiler :

Reference number: 11545
Game: C-IV SGOTM 15
Your team: Kakumeika
Your name: shulec
Date submitted: 2012-03-05
Software Version: BtS 3.19
Game date: 2000BC
Player race: India
Firaxis score: 135
Session time played (hh:mm:ss): 00:22:08
Total time played (hh:mm:ss): 07:11:25
Game status: Incomplete
Submitted save: Gandhi BC-2000 real game save.CivBeyondSwordSave
Renamed file: Kakumeika_SG015_BC2000_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Right click the Renamed File link above to copy it.
You can then paste it into your team post as the download link for the next player.


Here is your Session Turn Log from 2160 BC to 2000 BC:

Turn 46, 2160 BC: Barbarian's Lion (2.00) vs Gandhi's Amundsen (Warrior) (3.10)
Turn 46, 2160 BC: Combat Odds: 9.1%
Turn 46, 2160 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 46, 2160 BC: (Animal Combat: +10%)
Turn 46, 2160 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 46, 2160 BC: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 46, 2160 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 46, 2160 BC: Gandhi's Amundsen (Warrior) is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 46, 2160 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 46, 2160 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 46, 2160 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 46, 2160 BC: Gandhi's Amundsen (Warrior) is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 46, 2160 BC: Gandhi's Amundsen (Warrior) is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 46, 2160 BC: Gandhi's Amundsen (Warrior) is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 46, 2160 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 46, 2160 BC: Gandhi's Amundsen (Warrior) has defeated Barbarian's Lion!

Turn 47, 2120 BC: Gandhi adopts Slavery!
Turn 47, 2120 BC: You have trained a Fast Worker in Delhi. Work has now begun on a Settler.

Turn 48, 2080 BC: Deergold City can hurry Fast Worker for 1⇴ with 29ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.

Turn 49, 2040 BC: Delhi can hurry Settler for 1⇴ with 30ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 18 turns.

Spoiler :

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 46/500 (2160 BC) [05-Mar-2012 23:27:00]

Turn 50/500 (2000 BC) [05-Mar-2012 23:20:42]
Delhi begins: Fast Worker (4 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 19 per turn, 1 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild near Osaka, Amundsen (0.72/2) defeats Barbarian Lion (Prob Victory: 90.9%)

Turn 47/500 (2120 BC) [05-Mar-2012 23:27:59]
Research begun: The Wheel (94 Turns)
100% Research: 22 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -3 per turn, 20 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Delhi
Delhi finishes: Fast Worker

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Gandhi(India) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 48/500 (2080 BC) [05-Mar-2012 23:36:21]
100% Research: 22 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -3 per turn, 17 in the bank

After End Turn:
Deergold City finishes: Fast Worker

Turn 49/500 (2040 BC) [05-Mar-2012 23:43:16]
Deergold City begins: Settler (13 turns)
100% Research: 22 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -3 per turn, 14 in the bank

After End Turn:
Delhi finishes: Settler

Turn 50/500 (2000 BC) [05-Mar-2012 23:47:48]
Delhi begins: The Great Wall (11 turns)
A Mine was built near Delhi

 

[mabraham]

Looks good shulec, well done!

Interestingly, we seem to be the only team who built Stonehenge, or at least that fast... http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/...date=-4000&enddate=-425&submit=Refresh#format

 

[bcool]

Yes well done shulec!

Walter_Wolf ... waiting
mabraham ... waiting
WastinTime ... waiting
Kaitzilla ... UP NOW
Tachywaxon ... waiting
shulec ... waiting
bcool ... on deck
Sun Tzu Wu ... in the hole

also from the cultural screen no one built the Oracle by T63 either except perhaps the fifth element

hmm, perhaps a medic upgrade for Amundson on the hill so it is fully healed for the lion fight? Also a medic warrior is useful in a stack later.

 

[Manco Capac]

Perhaps wasn't very present lately, but I still read.
You had great patience, Shulec. I think it was one of the longest turnset I've seen, but the studies/test games were quite refined since.

 

[mabraham]

T40-50 summary for first page - please contribute thoughts if you think it can be improved / isn't representative / whatever.

Strategy plans
We had trouble in test games gifting missionary-bearing caravels to AIs and getting them to use the missionaries to spread Hinduism. DanF discovered that if the caravels used to be triremes they have a different AI script put on them, and if they are injured at the point of the gift, then after the gift they'll go home and heal up, releasing the missionary for a spread.

Much debate on the timing of getting fast Optics as well as fast AP. Bulbing Eng with a GSci requires no Fishing, no Theol, and a pile of manual research of post-Writing techs. Bulbing Eng with a GEng requires a big building spree finishing around T110, and is not faster than slow-teching Optics. Bulbing Optics with a GSci after getting Mach requires either no Medi or no CoL (to avoid bulbing Philo instead), so since we need Medi to bulb Theol for the AP we have to avoid CoL to retain the chance of GSci-bulbing Optics.

Also much debate on the merits of T64ish Kashi from our SH GPro. We hope the possibility of distant spreads before AI contact will be useful, so that when we build the AP we get contacts to those AIs and we don't have to spread Hinduism to those AIs where we get lucky. If the distant AIs are non-Tokugawas, this could allow tech trading much earlier than any other strategy. Kashi also useful for getting more OR or Theocracy effects at home, of course, and gets AP hammers.

Current thinking is still to Oracle->MC, then things get vague. There's support for building Kashi, getting another GPro using the Kashi priest slots to bulb Theol, building the AP T90ish and then teching to Optics manually T100-110ish. Whether we expand peacefully or try to goad Toku into war or DOW him ourselves is unknown.

What happened this turn set
Finished BW to find copper in capital. After some testing, despite the benefits of staying at size 5-6 to work Gmines, we decided it was OK to 2-pop whip to get the copper mine up faster, planning to settle 1SW of sheep and build a T63 Oracle there to seize control of Osaka's corn by T90-95 (we hope, depending on Osaka's culture output). DeerGold built a third worker for the empire, and then started a settler for the Pigs-Gems site. Delhi finished settler for SheepGold T50.