SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

[Kaitzilla]

If we can't get the espionage for currency in LizTown maybe we can get away with not 2 pop whipping the spy? I suspect 10% steal of code of laws is doable.

2 pop whip of a spy just as a backup to the currency steal, is it worth it? If it makes the difference sure, but what are the odds we fail and we can get enough espionage for the steal in LizTown?

I think the odds of the backup getting the currency steal are good if we manage that 30 gold from the missionary being unable to build in SheepTown. I've tried reproducing it in Dehli for more gold but can't manage it. Maybe there has to be 2 missionaries in city queues plus 3 missionaries walking around in the world hmm. Without that 30 gold, I'd say the odds of the backup spy getting currency are not good. Getting rid of GhostTown T112 certainly helps though.

The backup spy is also in trouble if Liz rush buys a monument in LizTown I think. The +1 culture causes the -50% culture bonus to decay down to -33% or somesuch in testing. It wasn't our massive cultural pressure keeping it at -50%, but rather her being unable to generate any culture of her own in the testing.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Hammuragawa wants
Priesthood, Monotheism, metal casting and 110 gold for peace with shaka...

I don't think we are going to be able to bribe him into war with Hammuragawa. I don't think it is too important if we can get the beg and get another city liberated to him (takes care of the -1 diplo hit that we will get DoW on Liz)

re: golden age

If we can avoid using the golden age for the currency steal we could consider... stealing code of laws and then bulbing civil service. Or stealing currency and then bulbing code of laws...

I know I was a big fan of the Golden Age, but now that we will not have a handy city to steal techs, the golden age isn't nearly as attractive.

If we manage to build courthouse the earlier code of laws would pay off quite nicely I think. Not sure if we do have the spare hammers to build too many courthouses.

So long story short, I'm okay with saving the great prophet for a later golden age. Just wanted to mention the options in chance someone saw something different.

That is quite the price tag for peace. Thanks for checking . I will try to sell him Monotheism for gold before T112, then trade him Theology + Metal Casting probably to make peace with Shaka. Hopefully he changes to Theocracy naturally T116 and Kashi doesn't spread anything to him in the meantime. Unless priesthood is a big enough bribed of course.

I think setting the slider to generate 40 espionage on Liz T110 and then 70 on T111 is best now. That will get us to 250 accummulated by T114 if we have enough gold to keep the slider maxed. I can evaluate the Golden age on T112 if Liz will take LizTown and I see our gold situation. I'm leaning pretty far against it now though. The backup spy can always steal Code of Laws yup.

Hopefully I can beg for 10 or 20 gold in there somewhere.

 

[WastinTime]

Ideally getting him to peace with Shaka using Monotheism and bribing him to dec Liz for Theocracy + Metal Casting is best, as he would then convert to Theocracy naturally and hit all 4 goals at the same time.

Maybe Theocracy is the wrong approach. Getting Mono in his hands (for OR) will allow him to finally build missionaries and spread buddhism. Which then allows us to also spread hindu (which we need for the final vote.) Theocracy means only buddhism can spread, but he can't spread it very easily.

 

[shulec]

I will try to sell him Monotheism for gold before T112, then trade him Theology + Metal Casting probably to make peace with Shaka.

Why not give Shakagawa Poly and Ghost town for peace. Give him Monothiesm and PH. See if he will make peace with Hammaragawa for Theology.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Maybe Theocracy is the wrong approach. Getting Mono in his hands (for OR) will allow him to finally build missionaries and spread buddhism. Which then allows us to also spread hindu (which we need for the final vote.) Theocracy means only buddhism can spread, but he can't spread it very easily.

I'm not sure any of the Gawa's are programmed to build missionaries. I still like Theorcracy, but I'm not sure we will be able to get Hamma to run it. Maybe if he gets our last tech priesthood for it.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Why not give Shakagawa Poly and Ghost town for peace. Give him Monothiesm and PH. See if he will make peace with Hammaragawa for Theology.

I think the one who intiates the war has the option to be bribed to end it (Hamma and Toku). Shaka will probably say (I'd Like to, but you will have to talk to them) once we make peace with him.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I like giving GhostTown to Shaka for peace because I don't know whether he will take it outside of a peace treaty while at war with Tokgugawa.

If you guys feel confident that he will, I can try to get peace with Shaka on favorable terms if he will give them, or give him polytheism if he won't. Then I will gift Shaka GhostTown and we'll get +4 trade relations.

 

[bcool]

I like giving GhostTown to Shaka for peace because I don't know whether he will take it outside of a peace treaty while at war with Tokgugawa.

If you guys feel confident that he will, I can try to get peace with Shaka on favorable terms if he will give them, or give him polytheism if he won't. Then I will gift Shaka GhostTown and we'll get +4 trade relations.

Might as well just give it to him in the peace deal. We can get +4 trade relations with him by giving him technology if we really need it. Safer that way.

 

[bcool]

I agree with Kaitzilla that it is unlikely that a Toku personality is going to build missionaries. Plus we don't know if we will build hindu missionaries or buddhist missionaries. I don't know if the AI spreads the TAP religion for the bonus hammer buildings or more influence in the votes.

I think theocracy is the civic we want for Hammuragawa if we can do it.

 

[DanF5771]

I think the one who intiates the war has the option to be bribed to end it (Hamma and Toku). Shaka will probably say (I'd Like to, but you will have to talk to them) once we make peace with him.

In the T108(175BC) save Shaka is willing to make peace with us for a mere 15 , now he is asking for GhostTown (because he can) but let's try the money first.

IF we want to broker peace between Hammu-Shaka we should do this before we gift GhostTown to Shaka.

An AI will deny a peace brokering proposal with "We'd love to, but you have to contact them..."(=DENIAL_CONTACT_THEM) if their EndWarValue is at least twice as high as the EndWarValue of the opposing team, i.e. they feel that they are losing the war, their cities are threatened. It doesn't matter how they got from the one case of affairs to the other case of affairs = how the war started.

Interestingly war success, power and threat advantage are completely irrelevant for the price of peace and so both parties will ask for the exact same price.

Spoiler :

int CvTeamAI::AI_makePeaceTradeVal(TeamTypes ePeaceTeam, TeamTypes eTeam) const
{
    ...
	
	iValue = (50 + GC.getGameINLINE().getGameTurn());
	iValue += ((GET_TEAM(eTeam).getNumCities() + GET_TEAM(ePeaceTeam).getNumCities()) * 8);

	iModifier = 0;

	switch ((GET_TEAM(eTeam).AI_getAttitude(ePeaceTeam) + GET_TEAM(ePeaceTeam).AI_getAttitude(eTeam)) / 2)
	{
	case ATTITUDE_FURIOUS:
		iModifier += 400;
		break;

	case ATTITUDE_ANNOYED:
		iModifier += 200;
		break;

	case ATTITUDE_CAUTIOUS:
		iModifier += 100;
		break;

	case ATTITUDE_PLEASED:
		iModifier += 50;
		break;

	case ATTITUDE_FRIENDLY:
		break;

	default:
		FAssert(false);
		break;
	}

	iValue *= std::max(0, (iModifier + 100));
	iValue /= 100;

	iValue *= 40;
	iValue /= (GET_TEAM(eTeam).AI_getAtWarCounter(ePeaceTeam) + 10);

	iValue -= (iValue % GC.getDefineINT("DIPLOMACY_VALUE_REMAINDER"));

	if (isHuman())
	{
		return std::max(iValue, GC.getDefineINT("DIPLOMACY_VALUE_REMAINDER"));
	}
	else
	{
		return iValue;
	}
}

Factors that increase the price:

• game turn
• total number of cities of both parties (after we gift GhostTown, peace will be more expensive, also Hammu will likely threaten it with nearby units, so Shaka will likely give DENIAL_CONTACT_THEM)
• how much they hate each other ((PLEASED+CAUTIOUS)/2 = CAUTIOUS)

Factors that decrease the price:

• duration of the war -> Attention: duration of the war also increases the hate between the parties ("This war spoils our relationship.")

 

[Kaitzilla]

PPP is done. Figured out the Hindu missionary micro. We also get failgold in Dehli doing it this way So 31 gold form SheepTown and 16 from Dehli.

It basically looks like a continuation of what WastinTime did in his turnset

Sorry it took a whole week to make.

 

[Kaitzilla]

In the T108(175BC) save Shaka is willing to make peace with us for a mere 15 , now he is asking for GhostTown (because he can) but let's try the money first.

IF we want to broker peace between Hammu-Shaka we should do this before we gift GhostTown to Shaka.

An AI will deny a peace brokering proposal with "We'd love to, but you have to contact them..."(=DENIAL_CONTACT_THEM) if their EndWarValue is at least twice as high as the EndWarValue of the opposing team, i.e. they feel that they are losing the war, their cities are threatened. It doesn't matter how they got from the one case of affairs to the other case of affairs = how the war started.

Interestingly war success, power and threat advantage are completely irrelevant for the price of peace and so both parties will ask for the exact same price.

Spoiler :

int CvTeamAI::AI_makePeaceTradeVal(TeamTypes ePeaceTeam, TeamTypes eTeam) const
{
    ...
	
	iValue = (50 + GC.getGameINLINE().getGameTurn());
	iValue += ((GET_TEAM(eTeam).getNumCities() + GET_TEAM(ePeaceTeam).getNumCities()) * 8);

	iModifier = 0;

	switch ((GET_TEAM(eTeam).AI_getAttitude(ePeaceTeam) + GET_TEAM(ePeaceTeam).AI_getAttitude(eTeam)) / 2)
	{
	case ATTITUDE_FURIOUS:
		iModifier += 400;
		break;

	case ATTITUDE_ANNOYED:
		iModifier += 200;
		break;

	case ATTITUDE_CAUTIOUS:
		iModifier += 100;
		break;

	case ATTITUDE_PLEASED:
		iModifier += 50;
		break;

	case ATTITUDE_FRIENDLY:
		break;

	default:
		FAssert(false);
		break;
	}

	iValue *= std::max(0, (iModifier + 100));
	iValue /= 100;

	iValue *= 40;
	iValue /= (GET_TEAM(eTeam).AI_getAtWarCounter(ePeaceTeam) + 10);

	iValue -= (iValue % GC.getDefineINT("DIPLOMACY_VALUE_REMAINDER"));

	if (isHuman())
	{
		return std::max(iValue, GC.getDefineINT("DIPLOMACY_VALUE_REMAINDER"));
	}
	else
	{
		return iValue;
	}
}

Factors that increase the price:

• game turn
• total number of cities of both parties (after we gift GhostTown, peace will be more expensive, also Hammu will likely threaten it with nearby units, so Shaka will likely give DENIAL_CONTACT_THEM)
• how much they hate each other ((PLEASED+CAUTIOUS)/2 = CAUTIOUS)

Factors that decrease the price:

• duration of the war -> Attention: duration of the war also increases the hate between the parties ("This war spoils our relationship.")

Oh nice! It seems that Shulec was right about being able to bribe Shaka to make peace with Hamma. If their prices are equal, then Shaka will also want about 880 worth of tech and 110 gold as Bcool mentioned. Our best offer to him will be 770 Theology on T112, so it might fall a bit short since Hamma was so specific.

If Shaka will make peace with us for 15 gold, maybe he will make peace with Hamma for GhostTown? Then we could try bribing Hamma to declare on Liz and save -1 penalty. AI will not make peace with other AI's for cities.

 

[WastinTime]

So the biggest disaster I can imagine would be Hamm DoW on us. He won't if he's at war with Shaka. I'm sure there's a reason, but I can't recall why we are making peace t112. Couldn't we give GhostTown for peace w/ Shaka t114. Watch the city for Hamm units approaching. There is no road. I doubt Hamm will move next to GhostTown t115 to take the city t116. If he does, we make peace t115 as a backup plan.

 

[Kaitzilla]

So the biggest disaster I can imagine would be Hamm DoW on us. He won't if he's at war with Shaka. I'm sure there's a reason, but I can't recall why we are making peace t112. Couldn't we give GhostTown for peace w/ Shaka t114. Watch the city for Hamm units approaching. There is no road. I doubt Hamm will move next to GhostTown t115 to take the city t116. If he does, we make peace t115 as a backup plan.

We are going to beg Hamma for 10 gold on T109,T110,T111, or T112. The beg means we don't have to hope Hamma doesn't blast a chariot into GhostTown T115 (he has them). If no beg by T114, then we make peace with Shaka for GhostTown and let Hamma keep warring with him and hope for the best.

Is it possible for an AI to overturn that 10 turn peace beg in bribe cases? We wanted Hamma to stop warring with Shaka so we wouldn't have to send an extra missionary up to a Shaka city that Hamm would not take because Hamma will take GhostTown before the T125 AP vote if still at war.

Will fix PPP to clarify this issue.



Forging peace between Hamma and Shaka T115 if Hamma threatens GhostTown with a chariot sounds nice, but we won't have eyes on the tiles 1N1W and 2N1W of Nippur to see if a chariot is there. Hmm.

Have not solved the Hatsegawa issue. Liz is pretty likely to bribe her into war against us T115 after we dec her. Hope is my current strategy, which is no strategy at all hehe.

Even if Tokugawa makes peace with Shaka through some miracle, he should still be at war with Cyrusgawa. He is behind on tech and should be safe enough.

 

[WastinTime]

Just keep a unit there to watch the surrounding forests. Seems like a 1% chance Hamm would be in position to take GT on t116.

Now what about Hats? Is there anything we can do to block her DoW on us? e.g. get her into another war? (against Shaka? against Toku?) If we gave Shaka enough tech, couldn't he bribe Hats into DoW on Toku? I don't think Hats is physically close enough to Shaka to get someone to bribe her that way.

I see the option to have Hats/Toku stop trading is on the table. That would be a nice way to block Hats if she does dec us. Question: by shutting off her access to us earlier. Would that make it less likely she can be bribed into war against us? probably not.

At least closing those borders will mean our settler/missionary/scout, etc are all safe in Toku's land. although they won't have much to do until t126.

 

[WastinTime]

Let's bring and axe back, or send another near ghosttown to scout it. If Hamm comes with a chariot, we can gift the axe to Shaka. I really feel that war with Hamm would be a game-destroying turn of events.
We'd have OB with Shaka, but no way to use it.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Let's bring and axe back, or send another near ghosttown to scout it. If Hamm comes with a chariot, we can gift the axe to Shaka. I really feel that war with Hamm would be a game-destroying turn of events.
We'd have OB with Shaka, but no way to use it.

I like this as a backup plan if we don't get a chance to beg Hammarugawa and get a 10 turn peace treaty.

The gifted axe would get steamrolled by the threatening chariot heh.

 

[WastinTime]

but we could demand something Elizagawa won't give up 10 time for a -10 (max) arrogant demand negative diplo and try to goad her into declaring on us. We would be looking at T126 Holy War, with no guarantees.

Although I don't support doing this idea. Just a comment on the mechanics: You can demand 10 things all in the same turn for -10 and furious. You don't have to wait 10 turns. I don't think this will cause her to DoW us.

 

[WastinTime]

I like this as a backup plan if we don't get a chance to beg Hammarugawa and get a 10 turn peace treaty.

The gifted axe would get steamrolled by the threatening chariot heh.

Oh yea, how about a spear?

 

[Kaitzilla]

Just keep a unit there to watch the surrounding forests. Seems like a 1% chance Hamm would be in position to take GT on t116.

Now what about Hats? Is there anything we can do to block her DoW on us? e.g. get her into another war? (against Shaka? against Toku?) If we gave Shaka enough tech, couldn't he bribe Hats into DoW on Toku? I don't think Hats is physically close enough to Shaka to get someone to bribe her that way.

I see the option to have Hats/Toku stop trading is on the table. That would be a nice way to block Hats if she does dec us. Question: by shutting off her access to us earlier. Would that make it less likely she can be bribed into war against us? probably not.

At least closing those borders will mean our settler/missionary/scout, etc are all safe in Toku's land. although they won't have much to do until t126.

Shaka would probably have already brought Hatsegawa into war against Tokugawa using Currency and Calendar, but they haven't met yet. That is what derailed my first PPP.

Perhaps when the AP introduces them to each other T115, Shaka will get his Hatse war bribe in a nanosecond before Liz does.


I suppose we could demand 10 gold from her T114 after we steal currency and we might get lucky. I'm not sure that is a good idea with our current power ratio. A trade embargo of Hatsegawa against Tokugawa will protect our settler and missionaries from her, but will also cause -2 relations with Tokugawa which isn't good.