SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

[mabraham]

Trireme near Crabsville should move to our culture SW of Island in preparation for an upgrade to caravel to scout the southern ocean.

HammuTown does not need an MP - move to position to retake LizTown.

Note that on global view, Liz's culture has been scouted near Byblos. Scout goes to SW of pigs, then heads to Genghis culture and hope something good happens with OB?

Island town should re-start lighthouse and then grow on non-mine tiles.

Crabsville is too late to build a monastery I think. Suggest Wealth. Our expenses are going up when the army leaves our culture.

Renegotiate cash deals as appropriate during the turn set - many will come due.

Stealing plan: if we get a

• Gsci, steal Mach and Compass, bulb Optics, steal CoL (definitely get CoL last, else we bulb Philo)
• GPro, steal Mach, Compass, Optics, bulb CoL
• GEng bulb Mach, steal Compass, Optics, CoL

Always in that order (mach and compass must precede Optics). The steal of the largest should be attempted first with the spy in LizTown, because the distance discount is best for us there, assuming equal fortification bonus. In practice, some arithmetic might be required if the fortification bonus is not equal.

 

[Manco Capac]

Trireme near Crabsville should move to our culture SW of Island in preparation for an upgrade to caravel to scout the southern ocean.

Indeed, I assume there was nothing but a chain of mountains after DanF considerations. But I prefer to hold 2W of present location for the simple reason to let barb galley spawns. We still don't know for sure team identity and perhaps one member is a Toku infuriated with all our DoWs and won't take any cities and won't let OB (both member according to Toku behaviour). Then, we still need to keep in mind to let some barb galley spawns for fighting and hoping some boat "injuries" <75% of healthy one to use the gift trick with a missionary.
Indeed, we have no proof an access to northern ocean may occur, but I recall DanF's theory the ice between Shakagawa and Hammuragawa is not necessarily prolonged until the mountain ridge.

HammuTown does not need an MP - move to position to retake LizTown.

Oh I forgot that one. Reckoned.

Note that on global view, Liz's culture has been scouted near Byblos. Scout goes to SW of pigs, then heads to Genghis culture and hope something good happens with OB?

That was my intention since the last comment. Yes I noticed Liz new cultural border, but haven't reported it because it has not any interesting impact because of mountain ridge.

Island town should re-start lighthouse and then grow on non-mine tiles.

Why? Isn't wealth a priority a little. With Optics, perhaps, it'll take even more .
I need a recap about it. I'll quote Kaitzilla's summary about it later.

Crabsville is too late to build a monastery I think. Suggest Wealth. Our expenses are going up when the army leaves our culture.

Wealth with a city with almost no production because of hills not improved. And marble tile is always worked whipphing on or not. I suggest monasteries and temple still in queue. I think we'll win around T156 or even T166 (I need to sync the next AP resident vote to see if T166 normal vote exists). Another 4 into wealth will pay off I think.

Renegotiate cash deals as appropriate during the turn set - many will come due.

Indeed.

Stealing plan: if we get a

• Gsci, steal Mach and Compass, bulb Optics, steal CoL (definitely get CoL last, else we bulb Philo)
• GPro, steal Mach, Compass, Optics, bulb CoL
• GEng bulb Mach, steal Compass, Optics, CoL

All reckoned.

Always in that order (mach and compass must precede Optics). The steal of the largest should be attempted first with the spy in LizTown, because the distance discount is best for us there, assuming equal fortification bonus.

In practice, some arithmetic might be required if the fortification bonus is not equal.

Comments in bold (colors button doesn't respond).

 

[Manco Capac]

Goals of today:

Play three turns to get to see next GPeople.
Working a parallel test game where I modify heavily shulec's test game. I will test according to real lands and cities the teleportation theory. Indeed, after three turns, we encroaches Hatshegawa lands and decisions are at that moment critical about where to put the army.
Also, FW must be working the right path.

 

[bcool]

Military units other than those teleporting to EastPort

We want a few to retake LizTown and TrojanHorse. Swordsmen are best at this, catapults are better sent to go against Hatsegawa.

We want a new stack to take Hatsegawa's coastal city. So existing catapults might be better off being part of this stack

Stealing plan

We might as well steal up to 4 techs if we can.

Save CoL for last in all cases. Steal CoL with a backup spy 2 turns after other stealing attempts it would be pretty cheap.

If we steal all 4 techs then
Great Engineer bulbs engineering for us
Great Scientist bulbs philosophy for us
Great Prophet bulbs Civil Service for us
All good trade bait techs.

 

[bcool]

Slavery
We didn't switch to slavery, I think we should switch to slavery, delays Caste switch to T128 but that might be when we steal CoL so it could still be okay.
trireme 1S of Crabsville
I agree with mabraham move trireme 1S of crabsville to SW part of our culture near Island. We want to upgrade that trireme to a caravel to explore that line of mountains to the west of Island so we can rule out that fog as hiding a team AI. The ploy of gifting wounded triremes is so unlikely to be used now. I don't see how Tachy's argument is better than exploring that fog with the upgraded trireme.

More military units
We want some spears and more swords and more catapults for Hatsegawa. We want to hit her coastal city. These could possibly be delayed until after we rack up as much espionage as we can over the next 3 turns by building wealth, but I think we need to think about this.
We want to threatening her cities so we might be able to take the heat off of EastPort. EastPort is going to have a bunch of axes as protection versus a ton of war chariots. I don't like those odds.

We might want to hope for A Great Prophet so we can upgrade some of those axes to Macemen with a civil service bulb.

 

[DanF5771]

I have a quick question not related to our SG. Does anyone know off the top of their head what values are returned from:

getCapitalCity()->getX();
getCapitalCity()->getY();

Obviously it's the location of the capital city, but where do the numbers start?

a) Is the origin the tile in the lower left?

b) does the origin return (1, 1), or (0, 0)?

thx

The origin is at (0, 0) and yes it's the lower left or south west corner of the map.

Once you have centered the world map by researching Calendar or building Stonehenge this tile should read 180°0' W, 90°0' S on a regular map (with full latitude range).
IIRC there is no 180°0' E column on a map with cylindrical world wrap

In our SGOTM Delhi is at 41°33 W, 44°8' S which translates to co-ordinates of (20, 13). The origin of our 52x52 map is somewhere in the unrevealed area south east of Hatse's city Akhetaten / south west of our island behind the chain of peaks.

 

[bcool]

Island city's lighthouse
Island city has a chop into a lighthouse already. I think in 30 turns this lighthouse will pay off, more coastal tiles worked means more commerce. It is 3 turns from completion.

Maybe wealth for 3 turns to accelerate the espionage gathering but definitely want to finish this after.

Crabsville
If we are in slavery, yes it probably makes sense to whip a monastery and/or temple. I leave that to tachy to decide. Without slavery though...

 

[Manco Capac]

Slavery
We didn't switch to slavery, I think we should switch to slavery, delays Caste switch to T128 but that might be when we steal it so it could still be okay.

Yes, that is main component of T123 agenda.
I didn't switch as I didn't move any units at T123.

trireme 1S of Crabsville
I agree with mabraham move trireme 1S of crabsville to SW part of our culture near Island. We want to upgrade that trireme to a caravel to explore that line of mountains to the west of Island so we can rule out that fog as hiding a team AI. The ploy of gifting wounded triremes is so unlikely to be used now. I don't see how Tachy's argument is better than exploring that fog with the upgraded trireme.

Sure about that. I better want to be prepared than coming short of ideas once we hit a wall. Going south won't help much in regards to fast exploration because the mountain wall will force us to move 1W at one moment. While the trimere 2W will make the same, using square tile unbalance in exploration (moving diagonally ever > than hori or vert). And going sourth kills some barb galley because of 2 tiles unfogging process with unit.

More military units
We want some spears and more swords and more catapults for Hatsegawa. We want to hit her coastal city. These could possibly be delayed until after we rack up as much espionage as we can over the next 3 turns by building wealth, but I think we need to think about this.
We want to threatening her cities so we might be able to take the heat off of EastPort. EastPort is going to have a bunch of axes as protection versus a ton of war chariots. I don't like those odds.

Okay, I didn't know people were in favor to an active war with that she-dude.
Okay, I'll make changes in that sense, but we need to know how much we need to build wealth so we can run 100% espionage slider until T126. Indeed, right now it barely making it.

We might want to hope for A Great Prophet so we can upgrade some of those axes to Macemen with a civil service bulb.

Ah. I like this! The I'll change those two scientists for 2 prophets.

Comments in undelined way.

 

[Manco Capac]

Island city's lighthouse
Island city has a chop into a lighthouse already. I think in 30 turns this lighthouse will pay off, more coastal tiles worked means more commerce. It is 3 turns from completion.

Maybe wealth for 3 turns to accelerate the espionage gathering but definitely want to finish this after.

Crabsville
If we are in slavery, yes it probably makes sense to whip a monastery and/or temple. I leave that to tachy to decide. Without slavery though...

I didn't see the lighthouse was near completion. Then, I'll switch.

 

[DanF5771]

Goals of today:

Play three turns to get to see next GPeople.
Working a parallel test game where I modify heavily shulec's test game. I will test according to real lands and cities the teleportation theory. Indeed, after three turns, we encroaches Hatshegawa lands and decisions are at that moment critical about where to put the army.
Also, FW must be working the right path.

You might find the attached world builder save useful for your tests. It's T0 but has many things consistent with the real game.

 

[Manco Capac]

^

Goddammit, you just saved me over 30 minutes.

Thank you.

 

[bcool]

Tachy,

If we get a great scientist we can bulb Optics and then steal Civil Service perhaps since Liz has Civil Service.

I definitely think we want to take 2 shots at stealing techs from her. Once with existing 4 spies and then again with 2 spies with 10% stationary bonus who jump in after the 4 spies make their attempts.

 

[mabraham]

Indeed, I assume there was nothing but a chain of mountains after DanF considerations. But I prefer to hold 2W of present location for the simple reason to let barb galley spawns. We still don't know for sure team identity and perhaps one member is a Toku infuriated with all our DoWs and won't take any cities and won't let OB (both member according to Toku behaviour). Then, we still need to keep in mind to let some barb galley spawns for fighting and hoping some boat "injuries" <75% of healthy one to use the gift trick with a missionary.
Indeed, we have no proof an access to northern ocean may occur, but I recall DanF's theory the ice between Shakagawa and Hammuragawa is not necessarily prolonged until the mountain ridge.

The team members popped their initial borders before the Gawas, and so cannot have the Tokugawa personality unless they have some serious culture buildings WorldBuilt for them. See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11442315&postcount=2416, and probably other posts too. So the likelihood of needing an injured trireme is pretty low, and the chance of getting one is low also. I think the chance of needing to scout the southern ocean is also fairly low, but higher than the need to cater for such a trick in order to spread Hinduism. Also, the sooner we can get that mission underway, the sooner that caravel might be free to circumnavigate, or pick up another missionary out of EastPort, or something.

Island already has a chunk of the lighthouse built, else we'd not be keen on it.

Re: build in Crabsville:

Wealth with a city with almost no production because of hills not improved. And marble tile is always worked whipphing on or not. I suggest monasteries and temple still in queue. I think we'll win around T156 or even T166 (I need to sync the next AP resident vote to see if T166 normal vote exists). Another 4 into wealth will pay off I think.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make, sorry. The next resident election is T146 (unless something weird happens to create no vote on T126 and/or T136). T156 and T166 are likely win dates for us - so 34 or 44 turns from now. A monastery costs 80 hammers and might never return any beakers, so has to be completed for nearly 40 turns to pay off its hammers with the AP bonus. Forget it. A temple costs effectively 40 base hammers (Spiritual) and maybe provides a useful happiness - but it still has to be completed for 20 turns to pay off its hammers. We might never run OR again, so it's not a factor in this comparison. Marble+central tile is only 4 hammers/turn IIRC, so about 10 turns to build and 20 to pay off takes us up to T152. Hammers as wealth now are likely much more important than anything after about T150. Edit: bc pointed out to me that you have some whips in your PPP. That makes sense if the timing works. Temple preferred for whipping (and if there's lots of overflow, think about an archer or something for an MP somewhere).

 

[mabraham]

Military units other than those teleporting to EastPort

We want a few to retake LizTown and TrojanHorse. Swordsmen are best at this, catapults are better sent to go against Hatsegawa.

We want a new stack to take Hatsegawa's coastal city. So existing catapults might be better off being part of this stack

Sounds good.

Stealing plan

We might as well steal up to 4 techs if we can.

Save CoL for last in all cases. Steal CoL with a backup spy 2 turns after other stealing attempts it would be pretty cheap.

If we steal all 4 techs then
Great Engineer bulbs engineering for us
Great Scientist bulbs philosophy for us
Great Prophet bulbs Civil Service for us
All good trade bait techs.

A high-level tech is no good as trade bait if we can't get the pre-req techs to the AI to take the bait that we are actually able to give them. Edit: Clarifying, we can't trade techs we have stolen, only techs we researched or bulbed.

Getting the EPs for four steals costs us time building wealth instead of units. We don't yet know whether we want to take Ahketaten (or other site), for which we'll need more units. Eng may or may not be useful for us. Philo is nearly useless for us. CS is not great - we don't want Bur, have more than enough population for 75% already even without irrigation, won't be able to upgrade maces in EastPort, can't really use paper. Bulbing a cheaper tech is still good as trade bait.

 

[bcool]

Upgrading to maces might be difficult

Where do we teleport on T130? And do we move the axes on T130 before the teleport?

The axes need to be in our culture and have some movement left to upgrade to maces.

If Hatsegawa declares war on T131 we lose access to metal so no maces.

bulbing earlier techs
Okay I was wrong about stealing everything. I forgot we can't give the techs we steal to the AI, so bulbing later techs might not be useful. mabraham's bulbing plan might work, however I'm still against bulbing CoL.

So switching scientists to priests in Delhi is a bad idea in my opinion now. We want a great engineer or great scientist. bulbing machinery or optics is best for us. Then we can steal the remaining techs for (machinery, compass, optics) and steal CoL and Civil Service.

Then get enough gold to upgrade at least one axe to a mace (and upgrade our trireme to a caravel?) Maybe we can get a bit of spare change from some AI to help with the upgrades?

 

[Manco Capac]

Upgrading to maces might be difficult

Where do we teleport on T130? And do we move the axes on T130 before the teleport?

The axes need to be in our culture and have some movement left to upgrade to maces.

If Hatsegawa declares war on T131 we lose access to metal so no maces.

Copper near EastPort, nyaa~~

I'll respond better later; working on test game for teleportation...

 

[mabraham]

Sure about that. I better want to be prepared than coming short of ideas once we hit a wall. Going south won't help much in regards to fast exploration because the mountain wall will force us to move 1W at one moment. While the trimere 2W will make the same, using square tile unbalance in exploration (moving diagonally ever > than hori or vert). And going sourth kills some barb galley because of 2 tiles unfogging process with unit.

A trireme can't go in the ocean SW of our island, so I dunno why you're talking about diagonal movement and such. I want our trireme positioned on the SW of our Island city so we can upgrade it to a caravel and scout the black area of the map.

If there's a full wall of mountains to our west, then I would like our caravel to go as far south and west as it can, and then work its way north. We will want it to defog the tiles on the other side of the mountains (for global culture view), which helps eliminate locations where AI pair members cannot be found.

If there's not a full wall, then we want to scout where the gap is to know whether to send any future missionaries east or west.

Speaking of missionaries, we'll want to start a new one around T127 when EastPort gets infected.

 

[Manco Capac]

A trireme can't go in the ocean SW of our island, so I dunno why you're talking about diagonal movement and such.
Speaking of missionaries, we'll want to start a new one around T127 when EastPort gets infected.

Oh my. I see my bad; I was think another position. That is why the incompatibility.
If this is for Island city, I'm all for it.

Excellent, eastport being infected means faster border pop, faster copper improvement and maces (according the new will to get CS).
Now I feel we'll keep EastPort.

 

[mabraham]

Oh my. I see my bad; I was think another position. That is why the incompatibility.
If this is for Island city, I'm all for it.

Excellent, eastport being infected means faster border pop, faster copper improvement and maces (according the new will to get CS).
Now I feel we'll keep EastPort.

Eastport is likely to be given to Genghis to be his Hindu city, after we're done with building boats and/or missionaries, or if we're about to lose it to Hatse. Is there time to put roads on the copper and grassland hill forest before the DOW?

We need to compute the range of EPs we need - particularly for the likely case of a GPro. Our best case of full fortification for all 4 steals at an EP cost of 25% of the beaker value is probably unrealistic. So we need somewhat more than this amount to get those techs stolen, and we want to plan to acquire some of it after T126, when we find out what tech we might bulb.

 

[Manco Capac]

Eastport is likely to be given to Genghis to be his Hindu city, after we're done with building boats and/or missionaries, or if we're about to lose it to Hatse. Is there time to put roads on the copper and grassland hill forest before the DOW?

We need to compute the range of EPs we need - particularly for the likely case of a GPro. Our best case of full fortification for all 4 steals at an EP cost of 25% of the beaker value is probably unrealistic. So we need somewhat more than this amount to get those techs stolen, and we want to plan to acquire some of it after T126, when we find out what tech we might bulb.

A road indeed. After that, it is T131. So, the peace treaty expires. Perhaps, we might get two or best 3 turns more of peace, time to the SoD to enter the border and DoW.

I don't think Hatshegawa is enough brilliant to post her army next to EastPort and DoW when the treaty expires. My guess the SoD is redirecting towards Lizagawa right now in the same way as Hammu and Toku?. I'll see where the SoD could be theoritically on T130.

Yes, if someone could recount all EP needed, that would be great help.