SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

[Manco Capac]

Let's get to work...

So if we get a great prophet we would need to steal machinery, compass and optics at the very least so we need a minimum of 651 on the turn we ceasefire with Liz to cover those steals.

I sumed up the until T126 (if we maintain 100% espionage) and we roughly get 756 EP and likely a tad more.

Then, that scenario is very feasible.

If we want to prepare to steal up to optics and CoL we need 789 on the turn we ceasefire with Liz.

A lil' harder. As we just need another 33 . But Kaitzilla recently mentioned the cost may be lower in the real game. Perhaps on T125, I'll manage to out emphasis on commerce tiles if needed.

Unfortunately, gold banking can only start on T126 til T130 with AI help.

in order to pay to upgrade some maces (around 80 gold each?)

Unit Upgrade Cost = 20 + 3 * (Hammer Cost of New Unit - Hammer Cost of Old Unit)

Likely axes will be upgraded for 125
Worst case we upgrade the sword for 110 , but that is last scenario as we lose in the process the second unit that resists against WC's.

 

[Manco Capac]

PPP1.2 up. Perhaps will play up to T126 tonight...or late night.

 

[mabraham]

PPPv1.2 feedback

The economy is about to take three hits - army setting off for East Port and the founding of both East Port and West Port. Need to bear in mind about 10 gold/turn extra for each of those. Some offset when we gift two cities to Liz for a turn or two.

Don't think PigGems should start another settler. IIRC we already have a spare one heading west, for which we have no plans.

Faraday should finish Hammsville farm unless we can work out that a chop gets a WestPort boat quicker - unlikely with Fritz and Karl already on the job.

I think EastPort is unlikely to be in our hands long enough for a workboat to pay off (e.g. with population whipping), so I think we want a trireme, and then either further triremes or a missionary to suit the situation. It's going to be Genghis's city sooner or later.

Various units in our main empire should be woken up and sent to hover next to both LizTown and Trojan Horse in preparation for simultaneous re-capture. Re-consider (i.e. stop) if longbows appear.

Trade religious techs for cash anytime it looks vaguely decent. Great Library just finished, so look around for anyone who might have cash pile. Likewise any subsequent wonders.

PPP mentions screenshots for unit movements - please link the post you mean to refer to.

AP resolution: war against Liz (if available).

If Liz and Hammu go to peace, then stop to discuss how to get Hammu back to war with some AI so we can keep our counters ticking up in a suitable fashion.

 

[mabraham]

New thought: If Hammu has some culture in HammuTown, then AP assign city will come up, I think. If so, there's an easy +2 "you voted for us" if we choose to assign that city to him T126 and vote for it. Sounds good to me.

 

[Manco Capac]

New thought: If Hammu has some culture in HammuTown, then AP assign city will come up, I think. If so, there's an easy +2 "you voted for us" if we choose to assign that city to him T126 and vote for it. Sounds good to me.

The culture hasn't reach yet the city of Hammsville.
This bonus wears off fast though. Don't you fear Hammy gets too much hindu and switch to Hindu. That wheat tile will let this city grow.

 

[Manco Capac]

PPPv1.2 feedback

The economy is about to take three hits - army setting off for East Port and the founding of both East Port and West Port. Need to bear in mind about 10 gold/turn extra for each of those. Some offset when we gift two cities to Liz for a turn or two.

All this should juggled in-game I suppose.

Don't think PigGems should start another settler. IIRC we already have a spare one heading west, for which we have no plans.

Ah I see. I asked what was the plan for settler15...but seeing it was a space settler, then another one has few uses.


Faraday should finish Hammsville farm unless we can work out that a chop gets a WestPort boat quicker - unlikely with Fritz and Karl already on the job.

And many tasks awaits in mainland anyways. Ok, Faraday will stay.

I think EastPort is unlikely to be in our hands long enough for a workboat to pay off (e.g. with population whipping), so I think we want a trireme, and then either further triremes or a missionary to suit the situation. It's going to be Genghis's city sooner or later.

Indeed, a 4 food clams isn't the best, but all we have is being settled on corn. And copper may not be improved in the most optimal way.
But since I play until T126, we'll see later.

Various units in our main empire should be woken up and sent to hover next to both LizTown and Trojan Horse in preparation for simultaneous re-capture. Re-consider (i.e. stop) if longbows appear.

I know Hammsville has a dormant axe that should be walking towads Lizville.
But some main should keep its unit to avoid unhappiness.

Trade religious techs for cash anytime it looks vaguely decent. Great Library just finished, so look around for anyone who might have cash pile. Likewise any subsequent wonders.

Unfortunately, only Lizagawa had Literature and that she-dude built the GLib. Most Gawas don't even have Aesthetics. Do you want me to wait just another turn to see if we can milk one more drop.

PPP mentions screenshots for unit movements - please link the post you mean to refer to.

The link didn't work. Will arrange that.

AP resolution: war against Liz (if available).

If Liz and Hammu go to peace, then stop to discuss how to get Hammu back to war with some AI so we can keep our counters ticking up in a suitable fashion.

Ok

Comments in blue.

 

[shulec]

I am compiling some tests. I believe we will be able to move troops on T131 and won't get declared upon until the AI turn between T131 and T132. I compiled test data below:

With Wastin's save. Peace T163(T121), Joao declared between T173-T174 (T131-T132).
With Kaitzilla's save. Peace T163(T121), Joao declared between T173-T174 (T131-T132)
With Tachy's save. Peace T82(T121), Toku declared between T92-T93 (T131-T132)
With shulec's save. Peace T142(T121), Justinian declared between T152-T153 (T131-T132)

 

[Manco Capac]

I can't play for tonight. Less than 4 hours of sleep. Tomorrow.

 

[shulec]

I'd like to see Settler 16 from PigGems heading toward GatewayCity for potentially settling on Pigs northwest of Gateway to be gifted/liberated to Genghigawa.

With the current plan and map, it can get to 1W of Heliopos at the end of T129. It could be teleported 2N1W on T130. If we re-establish OB on T130, he can move to 1N of Giza. On T131, he can move 2N1W of Gateway city.

If we get declared on between T131-T132, the he is a probably a sitting duck. If a missionary were sent with him, he would also be a sitting duck.

That being said, it may be worth it to at have him at least heading into the area in case something happens like Hatty declaring on Toku or Genghi, then we can get our Genghigawa Hindu city without giving away our boat builder city.

 

[DanF5771]

If anyone wants to know:
Indeed a fort next to coast won't need any road because behaving like a city.

Hmm, my memory must be wrong. OK.

mabraham's memory is alright -- roads are required in addition to the fort. Cities automatically have roads on their tiles, if you world builder these out the cities also lose their ability to hook up resources.

 

[mabraham]

I am compiling some tests. I believe we will be able to move troops on T131 and won't get declared upon until the AI turn between T131 and T132. I compiled test data below:

With Wastin's save. Peace T163(T121), Joao declared between T173-T174 (T131-T132).
With Kaitzilla's save. Peace T163(T121), Joao declared between T173-T174 (T131-T132)
With Tachy's save. Peace T82(T121), Toku declared between T92-T93 (T131-T132)
With shulec's save. Peace T142(T121), Justinian declared between T152-T153 (T131-T132)

Looks good. We'd hope for later, but now we know our targets.

I'd like to see Settler 16 from PigGems heading toward GatewayCity for potentially settling on Pigs northwest of Gateway to be gifted/liberated to Genghigawa.

With the current plan and map, it can get to 1W of Heliopos at the end of T129. It could be teleported 2N1W on T130. If we re-establish OB on T130, he can move to 1N of Giza. On T131, he can move 2N1W of Gateway city.

If we get declared on between T131-T132, the he is a probably a sitting duck. If a missionary were sent with him, he would also be a sitting duck.

That being said, it may be worth it to at have him at least heading into the area in case something happens like Hatty declaring on Toku or Genghi, then we can get our Genghigawa Hindu city without giving away our boat builder city.

Sounds like a good idea to me. However if we send one of our existing 3 missionaries to do this, then either we have one for the WestPort boat, one for EastPort spread, one for CenterPort spread and none for the EastPort boat, or we don't spread in EastPort and have a slower forest capture and/or boat production. We can certainly flex with the settler+missionary pair up until T128 or so and make a decision then.

I think I'd prefer to keep the missionary to go on the first EastPort boat, and rely on a T142 Hatse-peace to run over to settle CenterPort if that looks like the right idea at the time. We only really need Genghis to have the Hindu city right at the death, so in principle it could be the last thing we do before the vote - and at that time we will have no need of a boat city.

Also, in shulec's plan, T131 we can move him to 1N of Gateway city, so that we teleport to 2N1W of Gateway with movement points available to get to the pig. I don't know if we can do a similar maneuver to keep 1.5+ movement points to get to the pig and settle T131. If we get this city to Genghis, we might have enough +diplo to get OB and we can spread Hinduism there after Hatse-peace, if required.

mabraham's memory is alright -- roads are required in addition to the fort. Cities automatically have roads on their tiles, if you world builder these out the cities also lose their ability to hook up resources.

Good to know, thanks! My mind is not totally lost!

 

[bcool]

We can use the GG to upgrade an axe to mace...

So split 10 xp to axe and 10 xp to the the trireme.
Upgrading the trireme is only 50 gold while upgrading the axe is 125 gold.
With 10 xp the trireme can get +2 movement (not the 3 it could if it was linked to GG)
With 10 xp the mace could be promoted to combat II and +25% vs mounted units. Or maybe it could become a super medic if we are already sending a medic axe that way with 7 xp.

PPP feedback
SheepTown
Should finish its spy by T125, so it can jump into TrojanHorse as a back on T126

Consider whipping SheepTown a barracks with near max OF to get better units out of SheepTown, or build the military units elsewhere.

 

[shulec]

Here is detailed information about our diplo situation with Genghigawa:

On T114, we were at +4 diplo and still at cautious. We need +5 to get to Pleased.

On T123 we are at +3 cautious:
+1 Years of peace
+4 Fair trades
+1 You gave us tribute
-2 Heathen religion
-1 Declared on friend

On T118 Genghigwa toward Elizagawa: -1 Pleased
+1 Years of peace
-1 Heathen religion
-1 Close border tension

On T119 Genghigwa toward Elizagawa: -2 Cautious
+1 Years of peace
-2 Heathen religion
-1 Close border tension

On T123, Genghigawa toward Elizagawa: +4 Pleased
+1 years of peace
+4 brothers of faith
-1 close border tension
No open border points

Note: On T118 Elizagawa toward Genghigawa:
-1 "you stopped trading with us"

Summary:
We need to get a net of +2 with Genghigawa for OB (not using Holy War method)

We can get this with:
+1 Liberate (not guaranteed)
+1 Resource

We cannot get a -1 declared on friend.
If we convert Elizabeth, this will drop Genghigawa to -1 or -2 with Elizagawa.
-1 is still pleased, we would see this if heathen religion is -1.
-2 is cautious, we would see this if he returns to heathen religion at -2.

I think this needs to be considered when we redeclare on Elizagawa.

 

[bcool]

Certainly open borderswith Genghigawa would be nice, but I don't see why it is something we have to bend over backwards to get.
Once we get +2 from resources with Hammuragawa, we can send a lot of resources Genghigawa's way and get +2 with him, so that is on the table as well.


If we gift him a city with Hinduism (and the plan is to gift him EastPort) then open borders with him will not be necessary. Of course if we lose EastPort to Hatsegawa things could get a bit dicey. We are doing what we can to make that not happen though.

 

[shulec]

Certainly open borderswith Genghigawa would be nice, but I don't see why it is something we have to bend over backwards to get.

I agree. But we still don't know what that maps look like in his and Cyrusgawa's land. I am assuming there are no mountain ranges blocking caravel access to the AI team, but you never know.

 

[mabraham]

T126 somewhere has to start a new missionary. SheepTown?

 

[Manco Capac]

T126 somewhere has to start a new missionary. SheepTown?

Not completely sure; you wanted military to strike Hatshegawa for another coast city right? SheepTown is the nearest city for military production.

Anyways, I'll see in a couple of hours if I can play 3 turns. Before talking T126-later, we have to know the GPeople.

See you later.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Here is detailed information about our diplo situation with Genghigawa:

On T114, we were at +4 diplo and still at cautious. We need +5 to get to Pleased.

On T123 we are at +3 cautious:
+1 Years of peace
+4 Fair trades
+1 You gave us tribute
-2 Heathen religion
-1 Declared on friend

On T118 Genghigwa toward Elizagawa: -1 Pleased
+1 Years of peace
-1 Heathen religion
-1 Close border tension

On T119 Genghigwa toward Elizagawa: -2 Cautious
+1 Years of peace
-2 Heathen religion
-1 Close border tension

On T123, Genghigawa toward Elizagawa: +4 Pleased
+1 years of peace
+4 brothers of faith
-1 close border tension
No open border points

Note: On T118 Elizagawa toward Genghigawa:
-1 "you stopped trading with us"

Summary:
We need to get a net of +2 with Genghigawa for OB (not using Holy War method)

We can get this with:
+1 Liberate (not guaranteed)
+1 Resource

We cannot get a -1 declared on friend.
If we convert Elizabeth, this will drop Genghigawa to -1 or -2 with Elizagawa.
-1 is still pleased, we would see this if heathen religion is -1.
-2 is cautious, we would see this if he returns to heathen religion at -2.

I think this needs to be considered when we redeclare on Elizagawa.

Very nice research

So it seems that converting Liz to Hindu once again will avoid another -1 hit with Ghenghigawa. I'm leaning towards Bcool's opinion that open borders with Ghenghigawa isn't vital to our win. Mostly because we don't have enough spies and espionage to steal all those techs AND do a Hindu flip

I will cross my fingers that if it does become an issue, we can do +2 resources and still maybe get a lucky +1 (Liberate) to Ghenghi if we can't gift him a hindu city in time to get him into the holy war.


@Tachywaxon, Good luck when you play your next 3 turns!

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Have at it, Tachy! Good luck with your 3t set!

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[mabraham]

Not completely sure; you wanted military to strike Hatshegawa for another coast city right? SheepTown is the nearest city for military production.

Anyways, I'll see in a couple of hours if I can play 3 turns. Before talking T126-later, we have to know the GPeople.

See you later.

Sure - just keeping the idea of building a new missionary in the thought pool.