SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

[bcool]

It might just work. All the teleportation makes me uneasy though. I had nightmares after watching The Fly late one night

Assuming we use the Bulawayo attack plan I recently outlined (move to the Cyrusgawa plot closest to Bulawayo and submit the DoW on t161), our stack needs to be 1-S of Hammsville by t151. That gives us 8t to build additional units and arrive at 1-S of Hammsville. We should be able to assemble a rather lethal combination of units and probably can spare a turn for upgrades (such as Axemen -> Macemen).

When our six "best" cities build/whip units (2 crossbowmen, 2 macemen & 2 Catapults) our deficit exceeds -100 Wpt while at Res 100%. We won't be able to complete Engineering in 3t at this rate; maybe not even 4t.

I'm not sure I like Kaitzilla's teleport plan to save 2t we don't really need to save; we also need to test that the teleport will actually work in the real game as planned; if it doesn't we'll have to delay our win by 10t. On the other hand, sabotaging a road that is critical for Shakegawa to counter-attack is a great idea.

If we can agree on the grand strategy, we can tune the micromanagement appropriately.

Sun Tzu Wu

Come on let's take a leap of faith together

The teleportation plan saves more than 2 turns. It allows for a new holy war to called on Shaka.

The holy war on shaka has 3 advantages that I can think of
OB with Genghisgawa
We can give Liz's city back and steal as much as we want (maybe paper, maybe astronomy) (assuming we can negotiate peace between her and Hamm and Toku)
Shaka is distracted by Hamm and Cyrus units.

 

[bcool]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcool
Another backup plan

If we build a galley in Shaka Bacon Bit
Give Shaka Bacon Bit away to Cyrusgawa after we get OB with Genghisgawa (maybe with mercantilism??? city liberation???)
Cancel OB with Cyrusgawa
Galley teleports into critical waterway with possible galley access to Northern AI team

Spoiler:


westport has a monument so I would expect its border to pop by the time we got a galley built in Shaka Bacon Bit
Maybe if we got Ghenghigawa to join a holy war against Shaka T156 and we settled the Hatsegawa bait city as a teleport anchor, the galley might teleport there.

yes this is what I was thinking

 

[Kaitzilla]

Hrmm, would the AI_Team be dragged into a holy war against Shaka T156 if the South_AI was infected with Hindu but the north wasn't? That would pop their borders open right away for a magic teleporting galley.

The last problem might be stopping war with Shaka by T164. Conquering 2 of his cities might not be enough to get him to talk to us if he mauls our army in battle. Also, giving GhostTown back to him T164 might just end up getting it captured by Hammarugawa T165. (Not sure if this matters for diplo victory votes)

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Here are the six cities I was considering building particular units in, based on bcool's suggestion to build more units:

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 143/500 (660 AD) [10-May-2012 22:53:07]
Deergold City begins: Crossbowman (3 turns)
SheepTown begins: Crossbowman (7 turns)
CowTown begins: Maceman (4 turns)
PigsGems begins: Catapult (4 turns)
Crabsville begins: Catapult (5 turns)
Hamsville begins: Maceman (14 turns)

Notice that the Catapults are built without Barracks, but they can bombard Bulawayo rather than barrage, so it doesn't matter, except they won't be able to get Accuracy promotions which would help a lot with the bombardment.

We may be able to whip a few Pikeman (2) and Trebuchets (2) after completing Engineering.

My plan calls for the stack to assemble 1-S of Hammsville by t151. I believe we can have a reasonably strong stack by that time. We will have to see how the micromanagement works out to see what the final stack size and complement will be.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The teleportation plan saves more than 2 turns. It allows for a new holy war to called on Shaka.

The holy war on shaka has 3 advantages that I can think of
OB with Genghisgawa
We can give Liz's city back and steal as much as we want (maybe paper, maybe astronomy) (assuming we can negotiate peace between her and Hamm and Toku)
Shaka is distracted by Hamm and Cyrus units.

We don't need to teleport to have a holy war, so I only see saving maybe 2t as the advantage (we don't really need) and significant risk that it doesn't work as expected.

Should I spend time on validating teleportation plans in test games?

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[mabraham]

teleportation plan across gap between Hammuragawa and Shakagawa to Shaka's lands either allows us to either build a bigger SoD and leave later or leave early and get a DoW in time to call a Holy war on Shaka.

We can combine the various plans by moving what units we can assemble to Babylon by end T150. Only then do we have to decide whether we think the double-teleport-plus-holy-war plan (of http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11487525&postcount=3412) is the right way to go. If we'd prefer to wait for more units (e.g. Shaka gets Feudalism or closes our borders somehow, such as an early DOW) we can decide on T150 to go overland to Numidian, move to near Borsippa, perhaps wait for a couple of turns for straggling units to catch up, and plan to DOW T159 from near Numdian (e.g. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11487459&postcount=3409).

The double-teleport-and-early-DOW plan has the downside that our missionaries must be with the main stack T152. One of them is busy until the T146 Moses trick, and our backup on the caravel is busy until at least then also, so we'd have to start building the last 2 missionaries T146 or later. That's doable, but a constraint to bear in mind. Our existing spare missionary should be able to move west overland in good time, I hope.

So if STW can prepare a PPP that puts our existing units (plus as many new/upgraded units as possible) in Babylon by end T150 (including scope for 2-3 missionaries to join up within a turn or two), and his plan has scope for some trailing spies and/or missionaries as well as military reinforcements (used when we go for the later DOW strategies), then I think we will be in good shape to make the final decision T150.

 

[Kaitzilla]

We don't need to teleport to have a holy war, so I only see saving maybe 2t as the advantage (we don't really need) and significant risk that it doesn't work as expected.

Should I spend time on validating teleportation plans in test games?

Sun Tzu Wu

The teleport allows us to declare on Shaka T154 to begin the holy war process and have our main army start up near Bulawayo far from Shaka's SoD. I think the teleport+Holy war idea has a lot of merit with the backup-galley teleport plan.

If we did the holy war without the teleport, then we might run into Shaka's main SoD coming south through the chokepoint to take another shot at Hamma's northmost city which might stop us cold.


As for the holy war conditions, all the AI including the Team_AI know Shaka, the peace treaty between Shaka and Liz should be over by T155, and the capture of GhostTown T154 ought to remove all Shaka's Hindu votes, so it should come up.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Hrmm, would the AI_Team be dragged into a holy war against Shaka T156 if the South_AI was infected with Hindu but the north wasn't? That would pop their borders open right away for a magic teleporting galley.

Yes, we only need Hinduism in one of the AI Team (south) to have a holy war open borders with both Civs of the AI Team.

The last problem might be stopping war with Shaka by T164. Conquering 2 of his cities might not be enough to get him to talk to us if he mauls our army in battle. Also, giving GhostTown back to him T164 might just end up getting it captured by Hammarugawa T165. (Not sure if this matters for diplo victory votes)

When all Civs have Hinduism present in at least one of their cities at the end of t164 (including AI turns), the RL DV resolution will become available at the beginning of t165 regardless of any wars. We just need to be sure our own Hindu population is significantly below 75% (which should not be a problem); getting enough friendly votes may be more of an issue if we find ourselves much below 75% Hindu population.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[WastinTime]

A holy war on Shaka sounds good, but it could have one problem. He may end up losing voting member status. Do we have a plan to make sure he will have a hindu city when we need him to?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The teleport allows us to declare on Shaka T154 to begin the holy war process and have our main army start up near Bulawayo far from Shaka's SoD. I think the teleport+Holy war idea has a lot of merit with the backup-galley teleport plan.

If we did the holy war without the teleport, then we might run into Shaka's main SoD coming south through the chokepoint to take another shot at Hamma's northmost city which might stop us cold.

Ok, if the teleport allows us to avoid Shakagawa's SoD that is sufficient reason to use it. It still needs to be validated via a test game tough.

Why does our stack have to be in Babylon by t150 in the teleport plan, but my non-teleport plan has our stack at 1-S of Hammsville in t151? The target of both plans is Bulawayo by t164.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Kaitzilla]

A holy war on Shaka sounds good, but it could have one problem. He may end up losing voting member status. Do we have a plan to make sure he will have a hindu city when we need him to?

The working idea is that losing GhostTown and Bulawayo will make him ready to talk peace and we can give GhostTown back to Shaka T164.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

A holy war on Shaka sounds good, but it could have one problem. He may end up losing voting member status. Do we have a plan to make sure he will have a hindu city when we need him to?

Good point! No, we don't have a plan that I'm aware of. We do need to make peace with Shakagawa so we can either spread Hinduism to one of his cities or give him a city with Hinduism.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[mabraham]

Hrmm, would the AI_Team be dragged into a holy war against Shaka T156 if the South_AI was infected with Hindu but the north wasn't? That would pop their borders open right away for a magic teleporting galley.

Worth testing.

The last problem might be stopping war with Shaka by T164. Conquering 2 of his cities might not be enough to get him to talk to us if he mauls our army in battle. Also, giving GhostTown back to him T164 might just end up getting it captured by Hammarugawa T165. (Not sure if this matters for diplo victory votes)

If we do the double teleport, we can have our missionaries do the Bulawayo spread T154 before the DOW. We'd position them somewhere 5 road tiles away from Bulawayo so that we'd be in range of some other small Shaka city. If the first succeeds, then we will have a spare missionary (or two) to infect Ngomo (or whatever is smallest). Edit: need Shaka heathen T154 for the holy war, nuts. Bribing Hammu to peace might be an option. Peace between us and Shaka and a late Ngomo infection could work.

We could gift Shaka Hammsville (close enough to GhostTown) just before the DOW to have another city-capture worth of war success.

 

[mabraham]

One problem with holy war is that Mansa will be at war with Shaka, so we will have to use our stack to defend Bulawayo even after the gift. We'll have OB from the holy war, so that's OK-ish. A later war has a shorter window during which we have to survive in Bulawayo.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Ok, if the teleport allows us to avoid Shakagawa's SoD that is sufficient reason to use it. It still needs to be validated via a test game tough.

Why does our stack have to be in Babylon by t150 in the teleport plan, but my non-teleport plan has our stack at 1-S of Hammsville in t151? The target of both plans is Bulawayo by t164.

Sun Tzu Wu

Capturing Bulawayo T158 instead of T164 also gives us time to heal up and kill any Shaka units in Bulawayo's BFC in case they prevent the North_AI from taking the city because it is in danger. (Pointed out by Tachywaxon)

I think the idea of assembling in Babylon T150 was that we can move forward with any of the proposed plans put forward so far from that position. We can stop our advance and make a bigger army there just as well as 1S of Hammsville. Or we can push on with the teleport plan right away with the lighter force.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Worth testing.



If we do the double teleport, we can have our missionaries do the Bulawayo spread T154 before the DOW. We'd position them somewhere 5 road tiles away from Bulawayo so that we'd be in range of some other small Shaka city. If the first succeeds, then we will have a spare missionary (or two) to infect Ngomo (or whatever is smallest). Bribing Hammu to peace might be an option. Peace between us and Shaka and a late Ngomo infection could work.

We could gift Shaka Hammsville (close enough to GhostTown) just before the DOW to have another city-capture worth of war success.

If we spread hindu to Bulawayo T154, then we cannot do holy war against Shaka as he will no longer be a heathen

 

[mabraham]

Ok, if the teleport allows us to avoid Shakagawa's SoD that is sufficient reason to use it. It still needs to be validated via a test game tough.

Why does our stack have to be in Babylon by t150 in the teleport plan, but my non-teleport plan has our stack at 1-S of Hammsville in t151? The target of both plans is Bulawayo by t164.

Sun Tzu Wu

The double-teleport units have to be in Babylon by end T150 so that the T152 Hammurabi teleport works in time for the T154 Shaka DOW teleport. This captures Bulawayo much sooner than the alternative plans, but does so while avoiding Shaka's stack and hoping that his stack will go attack Hammu or Cyrus or something. We can't do a T154 DOW and later a Shaka teleport.

Your plan assembling 1S of Hammsville T151 assumed an overland trek and a ~T159 DOW from Numidian, if I recall correctly.

 

[Kaitzilla]

If we forgoe the complexity of the holy war, then we lose the backup plan with the teleporting galley . Man this game is complicated!!!

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The working idea is that losing GhostTown and Bulawayo will make him ready to talk peace and we can give GhostTown back to Shaka T164.

Ok, we have a plan, but will he be speaking by t164 and accept GhostTown for Peace? It does seem likely, but not certain. If not, we must wait for t174 and a t176 RL DV.

Isn't Shakagawa the target of our holy war? He can't have a Hindu city for the holy war option to come up on t155.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I'll have a PPP completed sometime Friday with subsequent input and refinement of the plans as other team members form a consensus of what we need to do for this turn set and beyond.

Good evening everyone,

Sun Tzu Wu