SGOTM 16 - Kakumeika

LowtherCastle · Dec 4, 2012

bcool, in SG12 you basically won us gold (imo) by playing a test game out to the end and discovering that we couldn't scrub radiation on friendly tiles.

If you happen to have time, I think this would be a ideal time to figure out just about how soon we're likely to get to Sushi Inc. In SG12, OSS REXed pretty heavily and yet the Plastic Ducks seemed to REX endlessly and had no problems with it. Okay, that map had half less distance maintenance costs (iirc), but still... I'm wondering how soon we want to have all these fish resrouces hooked up. Do we need to just keep setlting them full speed or is it more optimal to delay a bit?

I'd do it, but we don't have three weeks...

mabraham · Dec 4, 2012

LowtherCastle said:
CORRECTION: Fog-gazing and testing (see updated Test Save below) shows Barb Island has 27 unowned tiles. No more barb unit/city spawning possible. Crusoe is free to garrison somewhere. (The tile 2S of Sea Vous Plas looks like it's Ice/Ice but that's an artifact of Worldbuildering. Ice/Ice would have gotten defogged. That tile must be Ice/Coast to not be defogged yet. Same with the still-fogged Ice/Coast tile 2S1W of Sea Vous Plas.)

~~Crusoe still needs to prevent barb city spawn, even if unit spawn is impossible. So I think he is still on duty in the wilds until we settle 3FP-Clams.~~

Furthermore, Kaitzilla's decision to not deploy the Jacques was the better move, imo, though it was counter-intuitive to me. By waiting to move Jacques till next turn, we learn more about what's ahead sooner, at the expense of defogging three tiles to the northwest of Humbaba Haven that are clearly unreachable by us if we can't loop around to the west. Of course, there's always a risk that those three tiles will tell us something...but I think the odds are low. Two tile's are owned by Humbaba culture and we can't loop around they're useless to us pre-Astro. Plus, if we can't loop around, we can spy them on the way back. Anyway the land tile to the SE also defogs some tiles that we just missed.

Agree, I had the same thought.

mabraham · Dec 4, 2012

LowtherCastle said:
bcool, in SG12 you basically won us gold (imo) by playing a test game out to the end and discovering that we couldn't scrub radiation on friendly tiles.

If you happen to have time, I think this would be a ideal time to figure out just about how soon we're likely to get to Sushi Inc. In SG12, OSS REXed pretty heavily and yet the Plastic Ducks seemed to REX endlessly and had no problems with it. Okay, that map had half less distance maintenance costs (iirc), but still... I'm wondering how soon we want to have all these fish resrouces hooked up. Do we need to just keep setlting them full speed or is it more optimal to delay a bit?

I'd do it, but we don't have three weeks...

I can do this over the Christmas break, but not until then. Which is about as useless

LowtherCastle · Dec 4, 2012

mabraham said:
Crusoe still needs to prevent barb city spawn, even if unit spawn is impossible. So I think he is still on duty in the wilds until we settle 3FP-Clams.

Code:

- <HandicapInfo> <Type>HANDICAP_EMPEROR</Type>

<iUnownedTilesPerGameAnimal>30</iUnownedTilesPerGameAnimal> 
<iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianUnit>35</iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianUnit> 
<iUnownedWaterTilesPerBarbarianUnit>350</iUnownedWaterTilesPerBarbarianUnit> 
<iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianCity>100</iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianCity>

(XML-GameInfo-HandicapInfo)

No barb city spawning on landmasses smaller than 100 tiles.

Incidently, the 350 for barb galleys includes ocean tiles.

mabraham · Dec 4, 2012

LowtherCastle said:
Code:

- <HandicapInfo> <Type>HANDICAP_EMPEROR</Type> <iUnownedTilesPerGameAnimal>30</iUnownedTilesPerGameAnimal> <iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianUnit>35</iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianUnit> <iUnownedWaterTilesPerBarbarianUnit>350</iUnownedWaterTilesPerBarbarianUnit> <iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianCity>100</iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianCity> (XML-GameInfo-HandicapInfo)

No barb city spawning on landmasses smaller than 100 tiles.

Incidently, the 350 for barb galleys includes ocean tiles.

Great, thanks. Amended post.

LowtherCastle · Dec 4, 2012

More thoughts on PPP

1. WastinTime's idea for libraries+2sci before forges is a no-brainer, in hindsight. The forge (or confu) only saves 5 base-hammers on the library build. Forge+Confu only save 9 b-h total.

2. This idea dovetails well with our current shortage of workers because it creates beakers in our mature cities without additional worker actions. Just build/whip the library and grow the citizens. So we have a way to optimize our worker actions.

3. We shouldn't stunt our cities, though, running 2sci. Analysis:

Orleans: Can work 2 sci at pop7 and still have 7fpt growth. More if we farm one or two of the fps.
Horse City: Probably better as a hammer city, but at pop5 with a grass farm, it coud work 2sci and grow 1fpt.
CornPF: Can work 2 sci and still have 13-14fpt growth, as long as we don't poprush below pop5. Then it can poprush forge, settlers, workers, endlessly.
DrunkPigs: 2sci at pop5 grows 6fpt. With a grass farm, grows at 7fpt at pop6. At pop7, could also work 2 mines for 11hpt, with a forge. Gives us time to build mines, but not too slowly...
TrojanHorse: Pop5+corn could spam two Paris plains cottages and run 2sci. Without corn could run 1sci, spam 2 cottage with 2 grass farms.
Lyons: Don't poprush below pop5 (after library).
JunglePigs: Don't poprush below pop4 (after granary-library).
DeerPigsFish: At pop6, could run 2sci and work 2 mines. Or could whip to pop4 endlessly.
Etc...

4. I now see Clams/sugar/Iron as a nice city. Quick iron hook-up. Decent hammer city already at pop2. Working 2sci at pop4. Lyons or it could build the wb for Clams/3fps.

5. Assuming WastinTime opts to settle the grass iron, I still think we want to settle Clams/3FPs asap (on which tile?). Where does that settler come from? Needs to be timed with Emerillon's return, preferably a wb, and eventually a worker.

.

LowtherCastle · Dec 4, 2012

mabraham said:
I'm going to construct a broader schedule

I think this is very important.

mabraham said:
6) Once we have enough cat+mace army to get the show started, we do that (e.g. kick off in 15 turns)
7) Capture Camul, Tolosa, Bibracte, Vienne in another 15-20 turns (depending on how much defense and bombing is required). Workers build roads to follow the army (for war reinforcements and stone connection later)
8) During those 30-40 turns of prep+war, we finished Mach-Paper-Edu and the forges in time to start 6 universities. Ideally we can finish the 6th university and road network in time for Vienne to come out of revolt.

WastinTime's estimate of 15/20 turns for Edu without/with a bulb seems to more-or-less line up with the above plan - e.g. 3 turns getting cash, 5 turns for Mach and 20 for Paper+Edu is about the earliest we might ever capture Vienne (in practice, I think getting both Edu+universities and Vienne out of revolt are more like 35 turns away if we're trying to line them up).

Allow me to tell a story...

Spoiler :

My gut reaction to your time estimate is: Why, Mr. Andersen? Why? (j/k) In other words, if we're going to complete Education in 20 turns, then we want to have stone in 25 turns, or so. The question is, how?

Paris can produce a university in five turns by hand. (Unless we're past the happy limit, whipping Paris right before Oxford seems counter-productive, especially since we can store gold while building uni-Oxford.) So Oxford begins five turns after we complete Education, at the latest. With stone, Oxford is 134 base-h. We have 40h in chops left. That leaves 94. That's five turns, max. T156. We could improve on that with whipping and storing OF, etc, but that gives a certain baseline. We should aim to complete Oxford by T156 at the latest.

So then we work backwards from there, with Vienne coming out of resistance after getting captured...

That's how I look at it anyway. Of course, I think best while sleeping and I'm currently wide awake...

.

mabraham · Dec 4, 2012

The convergence point I am seeking is 6 universities completed and Stone available. Earlier university completion without stone leads to a delay until we start Oxford with stone, or a longer build time for Oxford (e.g. by 5 turns). Earlier larger-scale conquest without an Oxford plan also delays Oxford (amount unknown).

Both objectives (smash Brennus, get fast Oxford) are extremely good, but they combine naturally if we do our planning right. Even if we could get Oxford up faster with a purely peaceful no-stone plan, I think the benefit of having already broken Brennus is well worth (say) a 10-turn delay on Oxford (which gives us more time to stockpile cash while plundering, anyway?)

LowtherCastle · Dec 4, 2012

mabraham said:
The convergence point I am seeking is 6 universities completed and Stone available.

Same here.

And the question I'm asking myself is, does HBR-Machinery get that significantly faster?

We connect Iron on T134. With maces whipped in HC, Orleans, DrunkPigs, and hand-built in Paris, and all needed roads, the soonest those four could attack Tolosa is T145. From there, the earliest realistic capture of Vienne is T156, out of revolt ~T160, depending on its population. 34 turns from now. I guess that's not too bad. That requires an all-outr effort by our workers to set up roads from Orleans to Paris and between Paris and DrunkPigs to Tolosa. And that doesn't factor in Camulodunum, which is on the dark side of the moon for all this. We should come at Tolosa from the NW. It also doesn't factor the likelihood that Brennus will settle between Paris and Tolosa for that iron.

I haven't figured outhow much faster HBR would make things.

Walter_Wolf · Dec 4, 2012

LowtherCastle said:
Allow me to tell a story...

That was one helluva story. Liked it very much.

I suppose the latest Kaitzilla and mabraham's plans consider building the UoS at a later date (they didn't mantion it, did they?).

It's multiplier resource is stone, so we should plan to build Oxford and UoS in parallel in Paris and Orleans I guess after/during the war. We don't have that many religion buildings yet to be in a hurry, but a wonder is always a race.

:commerce:

bcool · Dec 4, 2012

I've been procrastinating at work, so I might be able to play out to Sushi with the test game, but probably can't for about 10 days.

mabraham · Dec 4, 2012

Walter_Wolf said:
That was one helluva story. Liked it very much.

I suppose the latest Kaitzilla and mabraham's plans consider building the UoS at a later date (they didn't mantion it, did they?).

It's multiplier resource is stone, so we should plan to build Oxford and UoS in parallel in Paris and Orleans I guess after/during the war. We don't have that many religion buildings yet to be in a hurry, but a wonder is always a race.

Yeah. UoS is not a priority until we have stone and some more religious buildings. So, after side cities build their universities makes sense for starting Confu buildings to set up UoS around the time Oxford starts. This also buys some time for some spontaneous Confu spreads - our natural hammers are mostly pressed into the war effort, so whipping buildings only after tapping natural hammers to build missionaries seems unlikely to accelerate the target of "6 unis plus stone," even though some unis might get whipped without OR. Once the war machine has enough muscle, some missionaries become reasonable, of course.

Kaitzilla · Dec 4, 2012

mabraham said:
Yeah. UoS is not a priority until we have stone and some more religious buildings. So, after side cities build their universities makes sense for starting Confu buildings to set up UoS around the time Oxford starts. This also buys some time for some spontaneous Confu spreads - our natural hammers are mostly pressed into the war effort, so whipping buildings only after tapping natural hammers to build missionaries seems unlikely to accelerate the target of "6 unis plus stone," even though some unis might get whipped without OR. Once the war machine has enough muscle, some missionaries become reasonable, of course.

I still favor deliberately spreading Confu to Drunk Pigs, Deer Pigs Fish, and Corn Pigs Fish.

Then whipping forges and building libraries.

The religion spread gives +1 happy and cheaper buildings, and then the forge gives even MORE happy and cheaper buildings. There will be overflow from whipping the forge from Organized Religion that flows nicely into a library and the engineer specialist can help finish the library in low hammer cities.

Not sure on a war getting stone in time. There just aren't enough roads. Maybe stacking an army on that desert island is still viable so we can start the war next to Brennus' capital on his copper 2 units at a time.

I can yield on slower Colossus I suppose, but make sure to count the extra commerce it gives earlier compared to any specialists Orleans runs and pick the best method.

mabraham · Dec 4, 2012

Kaitzilla said:
I still favor deliberately spreading Confu to Drunk Pigs, Deer Pigs Fish, and Corn Pigs Fish.

Then whipping forges and building libraries.

That guarantees the army is late, because only Paris, Orleans HC and TH can build those missionaries. I'm all for spreading Confu if it accelerates the strategic objective of Oxford (with or without war on Brennus for fast stone), but I do not think it does because your plan above wants to mark time waiting for missionaries, and then whipping a forge and then building/whipping a library, then running scientists, then whipping universities. That's much slower than the kind of plans WastinTime was suggesting, which I understood to be "whip libraries now, run scientists for max beakers, to hell with the rest". In my suggested combined war+Oxford plan it would be "whip libraries now, run scientists for max beakers, judge Edu completing and prepare to whip all the non-Paris universities to finish on the same turn".

The religion spread gives +1 happy and cheaper buildings, and then the forge gives even MORE happy and cheaper buildings. There will be overflow from whipping the forge from Organized Religion that flows nicely into a library and the engineer specialist can help finish the library in low hammer cities.

That's all nice for the long term, but it gets nothing from Rep and doesn't help the war or Oxford effort until 20+ turns from now. Dropping all of this for the war+Oxford effort has its cost, but we get a chunk of Brennus land earlier to ease our pain

Not sure on a war getting stone in time. There just aren't enough roads. Maybe stacking an army on that desert island is still viable so we can start the war next to Brennus' capital on his copper 2 units at a time.

Sure, the war suggestion needs testing whichever way we think is best.

A sneak attack on Bibracte only gains if we can get the stone out afterwards, and the logistics of getting a road to Tolosa still applies to any kind of pre-war transfer to the desert island (but via Jungle Pigs may be a real option). We may be able to get coastal trade routes to Bibracte via Elephantine (SW along its coast to desert island), so the idea has potential, but we still have to get enough army to Bibracte (teleport window to be computed) before we can kick off, because reinforcements will never come.

I can yield on slower Colossus I suppose, but make sure to count the extra commerce it gives earlier compared to any specialists Orleans runs and pick the best method.

Agreed, sort-of. I'm all for underdeveloped cities using libraries to deliver high value fast, but Orleans and HC have hammer developments and I think we want some of those for war or missionaries more than we want "max beakers for Edu at all costs".

LowtherCastle · Dec 4, 2012

Overall War Plan Analysis

I don't see HBR helping right now because we don't have any cities to crank out a bunch of horse archers. I also don't see any balanced way to get the stone sooner than about 35-40 turns from now, especially if we want to divert some units to capture Camulodunum at the beginning, although those units could catch up with our main stack at Bibracte or Vienne, so that might not slow it down too much.

In short, I agree with the general thrust of WastinTime's PPP, with adjustments suggested by mabraham:

Paris: forge-cats-maceT134 at max hammers, growing to pop11 on T132
Orleans: Colossus(7t)-rax(2t)-maceT134(whipped)
HC Confu-rax(2whoop)- (cat)-T134mace(2whoop on T135)
DrunkPigs also gets out a mace asap, I think, but I'm okay on it and other cities setting themselves up to work 2sci without stunting them, as I mentioned above.
I'm definitely in favor of settling the grass iron, simply because we need the iron asap. That means I'm in favor of building another settler somewhere, timed to jump on Emerillon on its return.
One worker needs to build a road to Tolosa, preferably forking to both DrunkPigs and Paris. Also, Orleans neeeds to be connected to Paris. This is critical to our war campaign. It's doable, but it probably stunts mining DrunkPigs, so it will be delayed in becoming a serious hammer city.

Minor details:
1. Trade clams to Brennus next turn for 4gpt (or wheat this turn and cancel sheep or pigs)
2. Relying on maces for Brennus means that the Chichen Itsa will probably be completed before we atttack Tolosa. We could attempt to sabotage the stone quarry for about 54 eps, conceivably delaying the Itsa just long enough.
3. Someone else's idea about Paper-Machinery. We might still be able to get Machinery by T134, working some sci and trading maps for gold. It would give us a view of the nether regions sooner. We might even see an Antarctic marble tile we have a chance to grab.
4. The JunglePigs pigs need to be pastured now that we have iron...

I still think we want to cripple Brennus asap, at least as far as VIenne, plus his new, coastal silks/copper city, but I agree with WastinTIme on getting our research capacity going at the same time.

.

WastinTime · Dec 4, 2012

All the feedback is great. I think we all agree where we're headed. I'll try to get a PPP with at least the first few turns out this afternoon.

WastinTime · Dec 4, 2012

What does the team think about barracks? No one mentioned them.

LowtherCastle · Dec 4, 2012

mabraham said:
3) Orleans finishes Colossus while running two scientists, then builds rax+cats+maces running engineer (backup for Mining Inc)
4) HC finishes missionary and rax, builds forge + cats + maces (since we don't want a university here, don't really have/want commerce here ever, and have a rax on the queue, it makes sense not to get a library here)

LowtherCastle said:
HC Confu-rax(2whoop)- (cat)-T134mace(2whoop on T135)

rax = Barracks

I suppose DrunkPigs should complete them too, but I'd rather see a mace arrive with the other three at Tolosa at the right time (~T144). The benefit of the 3XP is instant 50% healing after a victory which helps immeasurably with a quick campaign.

WastinTime · Dec 4, 2012

some roads to Tolosa might come for free after Brennus settles the other iron

WastinTime · Dec 4, 2012

LowtherCastle said:
rax = Barracks

oops, right, I did a search for 'barracks' and came up with nothing.

SGOTM 16 - Kakumeika

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King

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Lord Croissant

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