SGOTM 16 - Kakumeika

[Kaitzilla]

Also note that HBR is 390 base beakers and calendar is only 546 beakers. If a HBR war is about ensuring gems supply, teching calendar for incense+silk and hopefully sugar sounds like a stronger proposition to me. It's better still if we can trade/steal for Calendar, of course.

Representation isn't actually doing much for us other than the happiness. Switching to HR is far from silly if we prepare a suitable pile of warriors...

Haha alright. All I want to know is if I have support for Currency+20g for Construction that is dear to me heart.

That should allow me to finish the turnset.

Also, since we are keeping Jungle Pigs, what should we build after the workboat? As a bait city, infrastructure seems like a bad investment. Maybe warriors? A library working 2 scientists at size 3 would be great until Paris got some more cottages but that is a building that might get lossed if Jungle Pigs changes hands.

 

[mabraham]

Haha alright. All I want to know is if I have support for Currency+20g for Construction that is dear to me heart.

That should allow me to finish the turnset.

Also, since we are keeping Jungle Pigs, what should we build after the workboat? As a bait city, infrastructure seems like a bad investment. Maybe warriors? A library working 2 scientists at size 3 would be great until Paris got some more cottages but that is a building that might get lossed if Jungle Pigs changes hands.

I like warriors while we still can. We are going to have a billion cities later.

 

[Kaitzilla]

One of those is good, one is bad



OK, if it seems like it won't affect the Brennus diplo situation (and it isn't clear that the Brennus diplo situation would ever certainly lead to a gems cancel anyway), then we have nothing to lose by trading Currency+change for Construction. If we had some roads, we'd have something to gain from the bridges but otherwise there's not much upside in doing it *now*.

My country was built on wanting something "right now" It has a proven track record of success! We should do Currency for Construction.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I like warriors while we still can. We are going to have a billion cities later.

Okie dokie. Will dial up warriors then.

 

[mabraham]

My country was built on wanting something "right now" It has a proven track record of success!

Only if you want the right things

 

[Kaitzilla]

Only if you want the right things

Gnnn I can't break your logic-fu. Ok I surrender.

But we need to make a habit of checking all our techs against Construction each turn to see if Ramesses is teching one of our techs.

Once any of our big three techs no longer "buys" Construction, then we need to trade it for Aesthetics pronto before he has researched the whole thing.


I'll play the rest of the turnset in 30 minutes.

Will renegotiate our fish to Ramesses for 2gpt, trade fish to Brennus for gems, build a warrior in Jungle Pigs, and send Eve north to get on our galley.

No tech trades with Ramesses for T122-T125.

If Ramesses demands a tech, it will be denied. (We get another +1 relations T125 from religion and another +1 T131 from shared Civics)
If Brennus demands a tech, it will be denied.

 

[mabraham]

Gnnn I can't break your logic-fu. Ok I surrender.

But we need to make a habit of checking all our techs against Construction each turn to see if Ramesses is teching one of our techs.

Once any of our big three techs no longer "buys" Construction, then we need to trade it for Aesthetics pronto before he has researched the whole thing.


I'll play the rest of the turnset in 30 minutes.

I'm happy to trade for construction now if you think there is value. I just didn't want that consideration to constrain the Brennus-gems plan if there was a downside to getting Construction and no strong upside. If there's no downside, then go right ahead!

 

[mabraham]

WB first in gems-clams-pigs will set up a HG whip next turn. The WB can scout a few tiles south before returning to plant with the border pop. Warriors after WB, I think.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I'm happy to trade for construction now if you think there is value. I just didn't want that consideration to constrain the Brennus-gems plan if there was a downside to getting Construction and no strong upside. If there's no downside, then go right ahead!

That's the spirit

I forsee no downside at all. Shouldn't be a diplo hit, and even if there was we will still most likely keep gems anyway.

We gain a most pivotal military tech, collateral damage. And cheap colloseums. And turbocharge our Friendly Golden Aged trading partner to tech even faster. Maybe he will get absurd gpt and we can negotiate more gifted health items for hard gpt.

I'll do the Currency+20g for Construction trade T123 if all goes well then.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I'll play the rest of the turnset in 30 minutes.

Can I ask you to wait till tomorrow? I'd still like to discuss some things that I think are related to your last 4 turns.

I'm having a hard time keeping up with you two....

 

[Kaitzilla]

Can I ask you to wait till tomorrow? I'd still like to discuss some things that I think are related to your last 4 turns.

Ya, I can wait I spose. Feel bad going over a week though. I'm a hog on time when my turnset comes around and is a factor this SGOTM

 

[LowtherCastle]

I'll just do a quick dump of my concerns. I might keep adding to it...

1. We need more workers.
2. If we're not going to go to war soon , then we don't need to finish any barracks.
3. We're already paying a ton of gold in unit maintenance and you two want to pile out more units?!?!?!?!?
4. If we're not going to war soon, we don't need to finish roads just for roading's sake.
5. What is our tech path? The last time I researched Engineering was never. (that's a very small white lie...)
Six cats kill Duns city defenses in 2 turns (to 2%).
6. What do we do differently if we get the Prophet and don't need to grow Paris to pop11?
7. I doubt we're ever going to steal another tech from Brennus. DOes that change anything?
8. Camulounum is more valuable than all of Brennus TRs combined.
9. We can safely capture those two corn workers T123. SHould we?
10. Working 2 sci in all our cities asap is more important than anything else but granaries + forges, I'm pretty sure, especially if we're not going to beeline HBR.
11. (related to #7) JungleGems should build a granary asap. There's no reason to gift it to Brennus if we're not going to steal more techs from him.
12. (related to #10) Imo, the main lack in our current empire is worker improvements--mines, farms, cottages, roads, and very soon plantations.
13. I haven't had time to calculate Ramesses tech rate yet, but my wild guess is that he'll complete his next tech in a handful of turns, so if that's Calendar, will we be ready to plantate?
14. I only see two more cities we need to settle now: clams/3fp and clams/sugar. I'm not even sure clams/sugar is important, to be honest. If Brennus settles it, we take it back. If Ramesses settles it, well, we'll get sugar from Dorkatorium. Edit: And of course, marble if we locate it.
15. Every Brennus city we capture weakens him and brings us one city closer to stone, which we need asap.
16. Horse archers are twice faster than maces. Horse archers rock:

Assuming 0% city defenses, 25% fortified city defenders

         CGI archer  CI axe CI Gallic CI Spear
         ----------  ------ --------- --------
CI          75%                         
CII         79%       73%      44%      38%
Flank I     75%       51%
Flank II    82%       65%      60%      54%     (survival odds)

.

 

[mabraham]

I'll just do a quick dump of my concerns. I might keep adding to it...

1. We need more workers.
2. If we're not going to go to war soon , then we don't need to finish any barracks.
3. We're already paying a ton of gold in unit maintenance and you two want to pile out more units?!?!?!?!?

Eh, I don't want a pile more units. I was only talking about Gems-Pigs-Clams, which will produce a warrior every once in a while. That's better than 35% of a library for Brennus to burn down.

We have a worker coming out of Orleans next turn, IIRC. DPF has a worker, island has a worker, Drunk Pigs has a worker. There are three around Paris for all that work. Seems fine, but if you want another we can have HC whip one next turn (but its chariot is about to start rotting, so probably rax&chariot after that) and CPF can whip out a worker in a couple of turns (but I think we'd rather have its library).

 

[mabraham]

4. If we're not going to war soon, we don't need to finish roads just for roading's sake.

I presume the roads in the plan are useful for a spy or something.

5. What is our tech path?

Kaitzilla said he would shift to gold after MC so that this is deferred to next turn set.

The last time I researched Engineering was never. (that's a very small white lie...)
Six cats kill Duns city defenses in 2 turns (to 2%).

If we'd be going to build six cats for bombarding, we probably don't need horse archers to follow them up? Axes would do.

6. What do we do differently if we get the Prophet and don't need to grow Paris to pop11?

Shrine. Paris builds those workers you'd like?

7. I doubt we're ever going to steal another tech from Brennus. DOes that change anything?

Switch EPs to Ramesses then - but if we might not be stealing at full discount, we might not have enough yet. Not sure.

8. Camulounum is more valuable than all of Brennus TRs combined.

True. Best argument I've seen for a war. We can't use the AP to get out of it, though.

9. We can safely capture those two corn workers T123. SHould we?

We could, and that would combine with a plan to capture camulodunum with a couple of horse archers in 8-9 turns. But that would mean more defence to overcome in Camulodunum. Unless we gift TH for peace in a couple of turns, and come back 10 turns after that with a good collection of horse archers.

10. Working 2 sci in all our cities asap is more important than anything else but granaries + forges, I'm pretty sure, especially if we're not going to beeline HBR.

Well that'll solve the happiness problem! It does buy time for some infrastructure to get mines (building wealth to enhance Paris output is surely better than 4 for 12*1.25:beakers or Pcottages (e.g. CPF and DPF) going.

11. (related to #7) JungleGems should build a granary asap. There's no reason to gift it to Brennus if we're not going to steal more techs from him.
.

We're not planning to gift it to Brennus (some of Kaitzilla's posts I think were confusing your AP embargo suggestion with an AP city-return suggestion). But it is fairly likely to be a battleground if Brennus goes to war against us or if we steal 2 workers now. So infrastructure seems like a weak idea until we're more sure of the situation.

Sigh, there's a weeks' worth of discussion there, and I already think we've over-saturated most of the team. Most members average about 2 posts a week...

War does simplify the planning, I guess

 

[mabraham]

12. (related to #10) Imo, the main lack in our current empire is worker improvements--mines, farms, cottages, roads, and very soon plantations.

No biggie if we're running two scientists everywhere, but we do want improvements and soon.

13. I haven't had time to calculate Ramesses tech rate yet, but my wild guess is that he'll complete his next tech in a handful of turns, so if that's Calendar, will we be ready to plantate?

I'm keen, of course. But we have to react to that with a PPP pause, we can't plan for it other than to still have two workers around Paris and Orleans, which we will anyway.

14. I only see two more cities we need to settle now: clams/3fp and clams/sugar. I'm not even sure clams/sugar is important, to be honest. If Brennus settles it, we take it back. If Ramesses settles it, well, we'll get sugar from Dorkatorium. Edit: And of course, marble if we locate it.

Sure, that's workable, particularly as an adjunct to war prep.

15. Every Brennus city we capture weakens him and brings us one city closer to stone, which we need asap.

Education is at least 30 turns away, and all 6 universities 10+ turns after that. The more warring we do, the further it will be - all those inland cities will cost lots of upkeep to offset the pillage economy.

16. Horse archers are twice faster than maces. Horse archers rock:

Assuming 0% city defenses, 25% fortified city defenders

         CGI archer  CI axe CI Gallic CI Spear
         ----------  ------ --------- --------
CI          75%                         
CII         79%       73%      44%      38%
Flank I     75%       51%
Flank II    82%       65%      60%      54%     (survival odds)

.

... and CR1 maces start at 95% under these conditions for 7/5 more hammers (and don't need stables). A low-tech war is a long war and then WW starts to hurt... Also horse archers being fast is only relevant for reinforcements if you need to wait for cats to travel and bombard. And the terrain for the first 2-3 cities is not exactly horse-friendly...

If you both think a horse archer cat war starting after the rest of the teams started their war prep is a good way to race them, then we can go right ahead. But the PPP didn't embrace a full-scale shift to war, so we definitely need some other members of the team to have some input!

 

[LowtherCastle]

Okay, that list was long enough to give anyone a headache...and buy me a bit of time to look more carefully at the save from a steenkin' builder's point of view. (inside joke from Murky Waters... )

Here are some quick thoughts on Kaitzilla's final turns, assuming we're still going all out on REX and infrastructure.

1. Paris: HG-Hand build forge in 4t, keep growing.
2. Orleans: wkr-forge(whip)-Settler2 for Clams/Sugar. Whip settler if you're worried about getting there in time.
3. HC: 2whip worker asap. then 2whip forge with minimal OF. (Backburner: granary + units, but don't lose hammers in units.) Worker mines (I think, or helps with the deer camp first, or roads nearby deers, whatever is most useful soonest).
4. CornPF: warrior-forge+workers+library+grow to pop7 and always work 2 sci asap, only whipping from pop7 to pop5.
5. DrunkPigs: settler-wb-forge-settler2 (decide which settler2, here or Orleans, gets settled sooner. BUild just one of the two.)
6. Lyons: whip granary THIS TURN-forge
7. DPF: granary-forge
8. DrunkPigsT123Settler: I would settle Clams/3FP because it give us more value. If you agree, Emerillon should go:
T122 2SW (that's this turn!)
T123 2W
T124 settler boards-W-NW, dumps off settler in Lyons
T125 SE-E
T126 GM(if...) boards, galley beelines Elephantine...

If you prefer to settle Sugar/Clams, then anyway Emirillon should backtrack in case a GM is born to save one turn travel time.

9. If we're not going to steal those two corn workers on T123, then I think Adam should go back to Boudica and let Boudica go to the south to gather XP. By my calculation, Boudica boing by galley to Ramesses by hoof through Brennus is the same time. If we're fairly certain we're not going to DoW Brennus, then better through Brennus to peek in his cities and to scout for marble to the far south.

10. Good idea on 0% slider for 3 turns.

Note: This may overlap with your PPP, Kaitzilla, I didn't compare, I just scrolled through the save. Just my two cents. Play whenever you wish, Kaitzilla. I trust your judgment.

xpost w/mabraham

 

[LowtherCastle]

If we'd be going to build six cats for bombarding, we probably don't need horse archers to follow them up? Axes would do.

Axe      CGI archer  CI axe CI Gallic CI Spear
---      ----------  ------ --------- --------
CI          28%        26%      76%     99%                
CRI         29%        30%      78%     99%

Can't get CRII, suffers first strike, doesn't look favorable to me. Stables rock, but we'd only really need one or two for starters.

True. Best argument I've seen for a war. We can't use the AP to get out of it, though.

Speaking of which, one of the things I was trying to work on while you and Kaitzilla were racing ahead of me, was the idea of capturing Camulo just before the T132 AP resolution. That way we don't need to defend Camulo. What I didn't have time to do was figure out if we could have the units there in time. Also, would we want to postpone further warring till T143? Because we don't necessarily have to use the AP. We could also go with a CF when he's ready to talk.

We're not planning to gift [JungleGems] to Brennus...But it is fairly likely to be a battleground if Brennus goes to war against us or if we steal 2 workers now. So infrastructure seems like a weak idea until we're more sure of the situation.

I don't play that way generally. Brennus is not interested in JUngleGems. We won't lose it.

Sigh, there's a weeks' worth of discussion there, and I already think we've over-saturated most of the team. Most members average about 2 posts a week...

Yup. And I'm pretty sure I'm the main culprit. Sorry to all about that...

Education is at least 30 turns away, and all 6 universities 10+ turns after that. The more warring we do, the further it will be - all those inland cities will cost lots of upkeep to offset the pillage economy.

I don't see it that way. Universites will by quick, if needed quick (that is, if we have stone). Inland cities will be a net plus because they're already mature. Camulo, Tolosa, Bibracte, and Vienne only add to #ofCitiesMaintenance until they come out of resistance and then they can build research and pay for 100% slider. We could stop with that and be happy for the time being.

... and CR1 maces start at 95% under these conditions for 7/5 more hammers (and don't need stables). A low-tech war is a long war and then WW starts to hurt... Also horse archers being fast is only relevant for reinforcements if you need to wait for cats to travel and bombard. And the terrain for the first 2-3 cities is not exactly horse-friendly...

I envision grabbing Camulo and maybe Tolosa before maces come on line. Then either with or without maces Bibracte and Vienne. Voila, we've got stone. Plus, I don't see 4 turns of break-even research on HBR as necessarily slowing down us getting Machinery, because the plunder gold from Camulo alone is likely to pay for two of those four turns...and we're one city closer to stone. If we suffer minor losses, we're even close to ready for Tolosa. Finally, it handles the gems problem once and for all.

But, as you say, no one else has piped up about this and I've been mentioning it for some time now. Alas...

If you both think a horse archer cat war starting after the rest of the teams started their war prep is a good way to race them, then we can go right ahead. But the PPP didn't embrace a full-scale shift to war, so we definitely need some other members of the team to have some input!

We'll see. My guess is people will stay silent and wait for Katizilla to play, then see what WastinTime does. Fine with me. I'm not really trying to push anyone, I just get excited. I started playing these SGs in SG3 and it was hard, hard work getting my first gold. The competition was brutal back then. Far harder than now. Winning is weaving an intricate web of interrelated threads throughout the game. In fact you summed it up prety well here:

On strategy, the most critical thing this game will be maintaining tech pace, which is best done from the right combination of empire management, tech path, tech trades and espionage.

​

 

[LowtherCastle]

Seems fine, but if you want another we can have HC whip one next turn (but its chariot is about to start rotting, so probably rax&chariot after that).

I wouldn't worry about building the RAX before completing those two units to prevent hammer rot. They're just garrisons mostly anyway. They don't require the 3XP.

 

[LowtherCastle]

We have a worker coming out of Orleans next turn, IIRC. DPF has a worker, island has a worker, Drunk Pigs has a worker. There are three around Paris for all that work. Seems fine,

To me, this is anything but fine. DrunkPigs is waaaay behind what it could be if it hadn't coughed up the worker for the HG. If it had two more workers it could rapdily grow to pop7, work four mines and build 20g wealth per turn, paying a third of our current expenses. That's just one city. At pop5 HC could be producing 16gpt. DPF has mines it could be working. Lyons will grow more slowly than needed because of the lack of a worker. Clam/2FP doesn't even have a worker. Neither does Clams/sugar nor Jungle/Pigs for the pigs. Then there're all the roads we need for our armies and speeding up everything that moves. Then there are plantations soon enough. ANd jungle after that. I forgot to mention more cottages for Orleans and Paris. And the COrnPf farm is still unirrigated. For that matter, HC has a grass that needs to be irrigated. And Paris has a grass tile to its SE that probably should be irrigated but that requires a few other farms chained together.

IN short, if we hadn't gotten screwed out of those worker steals from Brennus we'd probably be about 10t or more ahead of wehre we are right now. Well, better late than never...

but if you want another we can have HC whip one next turn (but its chariot is about to start rotting, so probably rax&chariot after that) and CPF can whip out a worker in a couple of turns (but I think we'd rather have its library).

That's a good start...

 

[bcool]

I think time is our biggest enemy here. We can not keep going back and forth on these issues.

I still don't favor war with Brennus. Let him build the buildings in his cities for us. Let's focus on getting the universities and managing our tech rate.

When we do crush him, lets do when we are better prepared to rush his cities with better units. Efficiency is necessary in space game wars.

We have the trade routes now. We won't have the gems city for another 10 turns at the earliest (then there is revolt...)