SGOTM 16 - Pre-game Discussion

[kcd_swede]

I'm not concerned that random factors will outweigh skill with regard to shrines, and you can safely assume I have more knowledge about the random factors than anyone else does at this point.

Of course it is debatable, (and I am far from infallible) but this thread is not supposed to be about debating/voting on what conditions you want in the game. Its about clarifying the conditions that are provided, and I don't think anyone remains unclear on the objective, so no further discussion on this point is needed.

Does everyone understand the rules? That's the question that interests me the most at this point. Even if you do not like all aspects of the game set-up, I sincerely hope you enjoy the game.

 

[kcd_swede]

Still not 100% clear on that 2 wins thing.

Space would have to be won by ceremony as it has to reach the planet. But getting the conditions for wins like legendary cities could be achieved on the final turn when you have to submit the save. As a GA would do this.

That is my understanding. Am i right?

Yes, you understand correctly.

However, I do not understand why you would not just bomb on the same turn you get some other VC, doing two VC simultaneously.

The provision was mainly to allow securing other objectives during the grace period, not specifically to provide you more time to complete the multiple VC condition, though that is also allowed where possible (conq & dom & culture by Great artist bombing).

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

However, I do not understand why you would not just bomb on the same turn you get some other VC, doing two VC simultaneously.

Here are some possible reasons (I assume from a reading of the rules that these two cases would be permitted):

1. Suppose the needed Great Artist will be generated on the win announcement turn. Thus, one would need to delay the primary victory condition 1t to make them simultaneous, which is not even possible with diplomatic victories. Plus no team will want to delay their win even 1t, if the rules allow otherwise.

2. Suppose a Diplomatic Victory is the chosen Victory Codition to end the game, but the outcome is not certain. One can wait one more turn to see the actual vote and if successful, have the Great Artist create a Great Works, thus fulfilling the second (cultural) victory condition in the submitted turn.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[kcd_swede]

^Yes, I see. The first VC sets the finish date, so if you can get that a turn earlier and still fulfill the second VC during the grace period, that's a valid (and smart) tactic to use to save 1t from your finish date.

 

[BLubmuz]

^Yes, I see. The first VC sets the finish date, so if you can get that a turn earlier and still fulfill the second VC during the grace period, that's a valid (and smart) tactic to use to save 1t from your finish date.

I'm missing something:
case 1): you have managed 2 simultaneous VCs in a turn (say, turn 300), but you have to wait for the victory ceremony to win the game, right?
then you can save - and submit - your final save on turn 301.

case 2): you win on turn 300 (say, Space) then you have the victory ceremony, click one more turn and you can submit your turn 301 save. but to fulfill the 2nd VC (9th objective) you have 1 or more artists ready to bomb and you do so to achieve also cultural (or you have an army ready to take one or more cities or whatever). You do what you have planned successfully and you submit your turn 301 save.

question: what is the difference between the 2 cases?

My answer is none, but as i said, maybe i'm missing something.

 

[AlanH]

No difference in the end date, only in the time available to achieve the second VC.

 

[Gumbolt]

The clarification was needed so teams know exactly what they can and can't do. Waiting for a vote to win on UN and then finding you are 2 votes short the following turn would be slightly unfair on a team. As we saw last game when Kauk were robbed of a much earlier victory as a city flipped the next turn.

 

[kcd_swede]

I'm missing something:
case 1): you have managed 2 simultaneous VCs in a turn (say, turn 300), but you have to wait for the victory ceremony to win the game, right?
then you can save - and submit - your final save on turn 301.

case 2): you win on turn 300 (say, Space) then you have the victory ceremony, click one more turn and you can submit your turn 301 save. but to fulfill the 2nd VC (9th objective) you have 1 or more artists ready to bomb and you do so to achieve also cultural (or you have an army ready to take one or more cities or whatever). You do what you have planned successfully and you submit your turn 301 save.

In that scanario, no difference.

Now think of another scenario... it will take you two more turns to capture the last city and win conquest. But it only would take you one more turn to bulb a culture victory. It would be foolish to delay the culture victory in order to acheive simultaneity, because that would delay your victory by 1 turn.

Of course, it would be safer to wait for simultaneity if there is any risk you might not be able to capture that last city next turn... failing one objective would be worse than doing it one turn later.

I doubt any of this will be very important, but in case it is, its good that everyone is clear on it right now, while its only hypothetical.

 

[Jastrow]

A question about the task "You are EITHER the United Nations Secretary General OR the Apostolic Palace Resident."

Normally, I would not assume this is an exclusive or, but the capitilization makes me wonder...

What is we are BOTH SG and PR, is the task then completed or failed?

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

A question about the task "You are EITHER the United Nations Secretary General OR the Apostolic Palace Resident."

Normally, I would not assume this is an exclusive or, but the capitilization makes me wonder...

What is we are BOTH SG and PR, is the task then completed or failed?

Completed I would assume. It's an either or task, you only need to complete one of the objects to complete it. There are just two options you can choose from.

 

[AlanH]

I think the capitalised EITHER ... OR are just for emphasis and do not imply an exclusive or. But you still only score one objective for it if you achieve both.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

Doesn't the Apostolic palace obsolete with Mass media?

You can't be both at the same time.

 

[ZPV]

Doesn't the Apostolic palace obsolete with Mass media?

You can't be both at the same time.

The owner of the AP doesn't have to have Mass Media, for the UN to be built.

 

[kcd_swede]

Hi kcd_swede,


Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanH
The Decathlon objectives are as follows:
You are EITHER the United Nations Secretary General OR the Apostolic Palace Resident.
by pm:

I had initially read this statement as saying that we only had to achieve being one of them... but now I am wondering if the statement also implies that we cannot be BOTH of them.


I would think that it would make sense to allow us to be both of them, otherwise you'd be eliminating a possible combination of two victory conditions to achieve.

It might also be that a team is trying to achieve either one of those victory conditions but can't predict which one they will achieve, so they try for both.

Basically, I just want to make sure that we can indeed be both the AP Resident and the UN Security General at game's end.

You can be both. Or either one.

 

[pigswill]

Objective 3: you must be UN SecGen and/or AP resident?

 

[ZPV]

Do UN and AP count as separate victory conditions? The game records them both as Diplomatic Victory, but xotm has separated them.

 

[UnforcedError]

Do UN and AP count as separate victory conditions? The game records them both as Diplomatic Victory, but xotm has separated them.

Even if they do you will be on the mercy of the RNG with the timing
There is only one extra turn after your first victory to achieve the other if I understand correctly.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Even if they do you will be on the mercy of the RNG with the timing
There is only one extra turn after your first victory to achieve the other if I understand correctly.

The Timing of both the Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory and the United Nations Diplomatic Victory Resolutions are Deterministic (Not really RNG affected at all). The former has a period of 10 turns and the latter has a period of 4 6 turns (Normal speed). It's a simple matter of timing the construction of the The United Nations with the current period of the The Apostolic Palace to ensure the votes are in the same or adjacent turns (at least some of the time). It is also possible to change the phase of The Apostolic Palace vote timing by arranging an earlier TAP Resident Election, shifting the vote 1-4 turns via the TAP mechanics (there is some RNG that indirectly affects this, but the player has a fair amount of control over this as well). The larger periods of the TAP Resident Election and UN Secretary General must also be considered, since a DV resolution is displaced by these more important elections.

Thus, it is quite possible/pratical for RLDV and UNDV to be used for objective #9. The only remaining question is whether it is a legal combination for SGOTM-16

EDIT: A Team may NOT win both RLDV and UNDV via building The United Nations, because that would obsolete The Apostolic Palace. An AI Leader must build The United Nations and the team must adjust The Apostolic Palace schedule to match TUN, if necessary. Only then is it possible to win both on the same turn or on successive turns.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[UnforcedError]

The Timing of both the Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory and the United Nations Diplomatic Victory Resolutions are Deterministic (Not really RNG affected at all). The former has a period of 10 turns and the latter has a period of 4 turns (Normal speed). It's a simple matter of timing the construction of the The United Nations with the current period of the The Apostolic Palace to ensure the votes are in the same or adjacent turns (at least some of the time). It is also possible to change the phase of The Apostolic Palace vote timing by arranging an earlier TAP Resident Election, shifting the vote 1-4 turns via the TAP mechanics (there is some RNG that indirectly affects this, but the player has a fair amount of control over this as well). The larger periods of the TAP Resident Election and UN Secretary General must also be considered, since a DV resolution is displaced by these more important elections.

Thus, it is quite possible/pratical for RLDV and UNDV to be used for objective #9. The only remaining question is whether it is a legal combination for SGOTM-16.

Sun Tzu Wu

Hm, therefore you'll have to reduce the AP resident preferably to an OCC, fine... and then time the UN well while you know that the RNG can still screw you unexpectedly... But yes, I guess they can be timed correctly with some luck.

 

[kcd_swede]

Objective 3: you must be UN SecGen and/or AP resident?

Correct.