SGOTM 16 - U'nu'sual S'us'pec'ts

[ChrisShaffer]

You strikeout with the S tag, it's the S with a line through it right next to the SPOIL button.

Please do not trade Meditation for Archery with Ramesses. I haven't seen a compelling argument in favor of this trade. Ramesses and Brennus are mutual worst enemies. Why would we take a diplo negative with Brennus for a cheap tech like Archery?

I vote against stealing Monotheism.

I concur that Tolosa makes more sense than Camelodunum.

Yes, build a trireme, and also a chariot in Production.

I am going to vote for beelining Astronomy and skipping Colossus. If we had copper, I might make a different decision. The issue for me is that to make Colossus good, we have to work lots of water tiles, which means we need to make our cities big. But right now, we aren't in "make cities big" mode - instead, we're proposing to build 5 new cities, continuing our horizontal expansion and powering The Great Lighthouse's trade routes.

Yes, copy the autosaves before starting, and please make a manual save at the beginning or end of each turn.

 

[Revent]

We can't be voting over the Astro without any factual basis!!! Can we get a test map so I can play out both methods please? I am open to going Astro first, but I would like to test this out for myself. (Not that it matters since majority would still override my opinion )

 

[ChrisShaffer]

I think you'll have to make the test map yourself, unfortunately I don't have time to make one.

The easiest way is to play forward from the last test map.

Another reason I favor beelining Astronomy is that it continues our emphasis on early and thorough exploration.

 

[Revent]

I think you'll have to make the test map yourself, unfortunately I don't have time to make one.

The easiest way is to play forward from the last test map.

Another reason I favor beelining Astronomy is that it continues our emphasis on early and thorough exploration.

Okay, will do that when I have time!

Optics is all we need for thorough exploration. If this was Deity (or maybe even Immortal) Astro first would make a lot of sense since we actually have OTHER benefits than TR's. But I think there is far too much to lose by avoiding CoL and it's techs down the line.

 

[Deckhand]

I'm not proposing making a complete delay, but what I am saying is that beelining it doesn't seem like the optimal choice. It may be better to go to Astro after we get CoL, Phil, Edu...etc...

Optics is all we need for thorough exploration. If this was Deity (or maybe even Immortal) Astro first would make a lot of sense since we actually have OTHER benefits than TR's. But I think there is far too much to lose by avoiding CoL and it's techs down the line.

I'm also not comfortable losing out on founding Taoism and Bureaucracy.

At least this decision isn't needed for me to play.
And I concur with Chris' updates: don't steal mono and don't trade with Rameses. And I won't start the Colussus.

 

[Benginal]

In class right now. And I know the situation is different. But can somebody go check out OSS's tech path in sgotm 13.

I am also against the colossus. Units and settlers are better

 

[Benginal]

OSS tech path from here

Fishing, Mining, Bronze Working, Pottery, Sailing, Mysticism, Meditation, Priesthood, Masonry, Writing, Metal Casting (Oracle), Animal Husbandry, Code of Laws, Alphabet (turn 132) -> Iron Working+Polytheism+Monotheism (trades probably), Mathematics (GS 1 born), Hunting, Philosophy (turn 144), Currency, Archery, turn 155 (GS 2), turn 160 (GS 3), turn 165 (GS 4), turn 165 (Colossus), Compass (turn 170), Machinery (turn 171), Optics (turn 172), Construction (turn 173), Monarchy (turn 175), Aesthetics (turn 175), Astro (turn 176 - 40 A.D.)

Granted, we're not OSS. But they were able to get CoL (caste) and Philosophy (pacifism) and still get Astro pretty quickly.

I'm thinking that getting CoL will probably speed up our Astro time. Work on creating a test game Revent and we can have a go.

I still think skipping Colossus is a good idea (there were waaaaay more water tiles in sgotm 13). So you have a green from me Deckhand.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

So we really have two separate, but related, decisions.

1. Get CoL and perhaps other techs before Astro.
2. Build Colossus.

I am open minded on #1, but on #2 I vote against Colossus unless someone can come up with a really compelling argument in its favor.

Green from me for Deckhand's ppp.

 

[Revent]

Where is the latest test save? It seems that the first post hasn't been updated.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Regent made one partway through his set, it's on the list on page 1: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11898136&postcount=717

Nobody has made one since that one.

 

[Revent]

Regent made one partway through his set, it's on the list on page 1: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11898136&postcount=717

Nobody has made one since that one.

I found one. 450 BC.

Edit: I'm gonna ask someone to play this through if it is something which needs to be done quickly. I can offer us the map test save updated tonight but won't be able to play until Saturday since I work until quite late tomorrow.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Can you give a URL to the post? Where is it?

 

[Revent]

I don't know what post this is, but I found it on this link
http://forums.civfanatics.com/misc.php?do=showattachments&t=475488

 

[Revent]

Is there a link to the worker actions and just general micro that happened in the most recent turnset??

 

[neilmeister]

Agreed.

-No stealing Mono.
-No Colossus
-Steal IW from Tolosa, when Brennus gets it

Regarding the Astro beeline, I can handle delaying it for good reasons, but it seems that we want to delay it so that we can get half the tech tree.

Our cities do not need Caste now IMO, because of a few reasons: not enough happy cap to fully utilise it and we still have lots of things to whip.

I want to delay CoL, so we can bulb Astro, and not Philo with the Scientists hopefully generated from Great Lib & National Epic.

OSS' plan is not really relevant, as they only wanted Astro for Galleons. We are the opposite, we want it for trade routes, tech trade opportunities and Salons, our UB. As soon as OSS got to Astro, didn't they turn research off?

We should be able to trade for all of the techs mentioned once we get to Astro. We have to be aggressive in this. This game is a global tech race. Whichever teams game researched the fastest should win.

As for Happy cap, isn't Calendar coming pretty soon in our tech path, this will gave us a bit of leeway.

edit: will have a very close look at the plan & save in an hour or two.

 

[Revent]

I'm posting an updated save in a few. So bear with me neil please before you look at the older save.

Edit: Save added.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

I don't know what post this is, but I found it on this link
http://forums.civfanatics.com/misc.php?do=showattachments&t=475488

That's not an accurate test game, that's a file from when Neil played forward to test out some theories.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11894705&postcount=639

 

[Revent]

That's not an accurate test game, that's a file from when Neil played forward to test out some theories.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11894705&postcount=639

Oh God. I just made a save based off of that. -.-

I even changed quite a big part of our continent to match it ahahah.

 

[Revent]

Agreed.

-No stealing Mono.
-No Colossus
-Steal IW from Tolosa, when Brennus gets it

Regarding the Astro beeline, I can handle delaying it for good reasons, but it seems that we want to delay it so that we can get half the tech tree.

Our cities do not need Caste now IMO, because of a few reasons: not enough happy cap to fully utilise it and we still have lots of things to whip.

I want to delay CoL, so we can bulb Astro, and not Philo with the Scientists hopefully generated from Great Lib & National Epic.

OSS' plan is not really relevant, as they only wanted Astro for Galleons. We are the opposite, we want it for trade routes, tech trade opportunities and Salons, our UB. As soon as OSS got to Astro, didn't they turn research off?

We should be able to trade for all of the techs mentioned once we get to Astro. We have to be aggressive in this. This game is a global tech race. Whichever teams game researched the fastest should win.

As for Happy cap, isn't Calendar coming pretty soon in our tech path, this will gave us a bit of leeway.

edit: will have a very close look at the plan & save in an hour or two.

Monarchy is the solution to the happiness issue that comes with growing cities. Our GP farm can run 6 scientists. That is pretty darn good and would be a waste if we didn't make the most of it! Obviously, we are not going to immediately switch to caste since we will have to whip for basic infra in new cities. But going Astro first delays Caste by A LOT and the time in which GP's are most useful is the time in which we are going to be not using it. Seems counter productive to me.

As for Colossus, I think we should slow build it using whip overflow from workers/settlers and other buildings/units. The idea is that it WILL pay off no matter how quickly we get Astro and we will be denying AI it. However, I do agree it is low priority.

As for Mono, I think it is cheaper to steal it. HOWEVER, we wait until after IW before we do take it.

Our UB isn't exactly great tbh Tech trades have been factored already and the AI emp are too slow for them to give us anything worthwhile. Result is, two AI will give us the techs we need whilst the other 2 have nothing good to offer.

Happy cap->Trade for Monarchy which AI prioritise.

 

[neilmeister]

Yes, get Monarchy by trade as the AI always prioritise it.

I too like the idea of stealing Mono, as OR fits very nicely to the Buddhism spread Brennus is doing for us. But I agree waiting after IW is sensible. Decathlon objectives first !!
The price depends on if our spy survives. If we have to build a spy to steal it, it isn;t worth it.

Oh, and after reading some more thread, don't trade for Archery. We should be able to beg for it as soon as the next bonus kicks in (religion, trade, resources, open borders, peace)

Happy to wait for a test save....