SGOTM 16 - U'nu'sual S'us'pec'ts

[neilmeister]

I don't think I would be settling the north any time soon, a fish or a horse. Thats it.

What concerns me about our current position is our sustainable research rate of only 30%. Losing the trade routes with Ramesses cost us dear, its a shame that he founded Confused. Though I will of course change my mind if he builds the shrine.

At 30% research, new cities do pay for themselves, but obviously the maintenance increases for all cities every time we build one. Let Brennus settle all that jungle and chop it out.

I believe we have room for 2 extra cities before we crash the economy, one from the current settler in GP Farm (desert island is my current preference, it has clams and can share the fish with Zhou, which already has Sheep & Horses) and 1 more from somewhere else. We should probably always have 1 city building a settler at any given time.

I could go either way with Colossus, but any extra money could prevent us completely crashing the economy in the short term.

I will over the weekend try to play out both strategies.
Have you detailed a preferred long term tech path and/or wonder builds?


Turning to more micro matters:
The Galley should turn back south, and meet the settler on/near the Barb City pig. Bring back 2 chariots on the way.

Paris: I'm good for the monastery first, and I love fail gold, but none of our AI have Aesthetics yet, or Gold, so we might wait a while for any fail gold. I would go for a forge first.

GP Farm: Yes, whip the settler for max overflow (can be achieved next turn by assigning the scientists to mines), overflow into NE of course. Then work fish/pigs/2 PH mines. Don't worry about unhappy faces building up, just power through.
The key point is earliest NE with 2 scientists assigned, so I will try to test various options out.
Paris should then produce the next GP, 60% chance of it being a GS.

Production: If we are going for Colossus, it should be right now, the later we get it, the less benefit we get. Its done in 11 turns without any whipping or chopping.

Commerce: Agreed, 2 pop whip the temple for sure. Once the mine is finished work it. Commerce could build a settler next

Clams: Agreed.

Barb City, East Fish, Zhou: Agreed

 

[neilmeister]

Oh just one thing I wanted to add.

I THINK GP Farm was built before Production; can't actually remember sadly.

What I wanted to say about that was that for the forests that are outside the BFC BUT an equidstance between 3 cities, the hammers from chopping will go to the city that was founded first so we can get some workers to chop out part of TGL!

Yes it was built first!!! Great thinking.

edit: Just noticed you were suggesting TGL whereas I was suggesting NE in GP Farm.
I think in terms of GP points they be almost exactly equal. 2 free scientists + 2 gpp from TGL VS doubling our 2 assigned GS's points + 1 gpp from NE.

....but NE is 250 hammers vs 350 for TGL.

... and I would personally prefer TGL & Oxford to go in Paris.

 

[Revent]

As for the not beelining Astro Plan: I will come up with that tomorrow after work.


Yes, I think the colossus is worth it. Production should build it. GP farm should NOT build it because it will add more GM points to the pool which may not be good.

As for NE or TGL. I was actually thinking both Obviously, I might be wrong about that, but I think it's better to have our GP concentration in one place.


We don't have a forge in Paris!?! I thought we did! In that case, forge first is clearly optimal.

 

[SteelHorse]

Great work Deckhand!

Any thoughts on Currency next?
1. Extra trade routes. will help all cities
2. Can sell techs for Gold
3. Nice to trade for math if Brennus gets it. Would be nice to see his teching. He seems to be staying just ahead of us.
4. Can build Wealth

What concerns me about our current position is our sustainable research rate of only 30%. Losing the trade routes with Ramesses cost us dear, its a shame that he founded Confused. Though I will of course change my mind if he builds the shrine.

Downside of taking sides with Brennus.


Still no sign of Brennus stack - odd.

 

[Revent]

The only qualm I have with our game so far is that we are treating Paris as a Bur capital. It is not and popping the gold doesn't change that I think. Paris is a late game production city with the plains tiles (watermills and workshops) and double food source. A good bur capital is Brennus's city (although one may argue that even THAT is a production city with river access and only hill pigs).

What I am thinking is that for this game, we may need a non conventional approach. +50% commerce is miles more important than +50% hammers so much that we can ignore the effects of the hammer bonus. (Skipping Bur is just so silly that I don't even think it's worth a mention as a possibility ) Anyway, so the +50% commerce means that our best commerce city should be the capital which all points to commerce the city. So if we build Oxford in commerce after making it our capital which shouldn't be TOO hard with its 3 hills, it could be pretty strong.

Long explanation simplified:

Paris could be our (naval) production city: Moai and...maybe HE?
Bibicarte could be our second production city: Ironworks and...maybe WP?
GP Farm is self explanatory: National Epic
Commerce: Palace, Oxford and....nothing?

National Wonders we want to build as well: Wall Street (in Sushi city), Hermitage (for one of our culture cities), possibly the Globe Theatre, Forbidden Palace.


I may obviously be wrong because conventional methods have shown to work after all But this is a non conventional start on a lower difficulty that doesn't JUST require a win, it requires maximum optimisation which conventional methods tend to not look at.


Edit: I do agree on currency as well.

 

[Revent]

Also, in the instance in which we DO beeline Astro, this could be very good!

Spoiler :

The use of privateers

 

[Deckhand]

The only qualm I have with our game so far is that we are treating Paris as a Bur capital. It is not and popping the gold doesn't change that I think. Paris is a late game production city with the plains tiles (watermills and workshops) and double food source. A good bur capital is Brennus's city (although one may argue that even THAT is a production city with river access and only hill pigs).

What I am thinking is that for this game, we may need a non conventional approach. +50% commerce is miles more important than +50% hammers so much that we can ignore the effects of the hammer bonus. (Skipping Bur is just so silly that I don't even think it's worth a mention as a possibility ) Anyway, so the +50% commerce means that our best commerce city should be the capital which all points to commerce the city. So if we build Oxford in commerce after making it our capital which shouldn't be TOO hard with its 3 hills, it could be pretty strong.

Long explanation simplified:

Paris could be our (naval) production city: Moai and...maybe HE?
Bibicarte could be our second production city: Ironworks and...maybe WP?
GP Farm is self explanatory: National Epic
Commerce: Palace, Oxford and....nothing?

National Wonders we want to build as well: Wall Street (in Sushi city), Hermitage (for one of our culture cities), possibly the Globe Theatre, Forbidden Palace.


I may obviously be wrong because conventional methods have shown to work after all But this is a non conventional start on a lower difficulty that doesn't JUST require a win, it requires maximum optimisation which conventional methods tend to not look at.


Edit: I do agree on currency as well.

AARGH This is the discussion I wanted us to have before I put the academy in Paris! Are we going to spend another GS on an academy for Commerce?

We can build NE anytime, but need to beat the AIs to TGL. Let's decide where and build it. Also, don't forget the Parthenon.


Don't let woody die. I'm worried about him way down there by himself sorrounded by archers and axemen and unpassable borders.

One trireme in the west is good. We should build one in the east and investigate the copper isles.

 

[neilmeister]

The Academy in Paris was a no-brainer. It had twice the beakers of Commerce, before we planted the Academy. Regardless of where a long term beauro cap goes, the Academy at this stage had to go in Paris.

I don't know about Commerce being the Beauro cap, I still like Paris. I completely agree that Commerce can support about ~15 cottages vs ~8 in Paris. The problem I see with Commerce is that there are just no hammers to build Palace/University/Oxford, and no food to whip them out either.
edit 3: OK, I eat my words. As you say, there are 3 hills in Commerce that we could use, but to work all 3, we would need to be working 5 FP's. So, at pop 8 it would have 1 surplus fpt and 12hpt.

Once we get levee's then Commerce will be an absolute monster, and then would I support building a Palace, problem is, this is usually long after Education.


@Currency,
100% agree that this should be our next immediate tech. In my head I kind of thought we had it, as I was expecting the GM, and I completely forgot we didn't have it.

Astro tech path
Lit -> Currency -> IW(steal) -> Compass -> Maths(trade) -> Calendar -> Machinery (bulb) -> Compass -> Astro (bulb)

Can I suggest then that we make a trade, Alpha for Mono/Archery.
That way we can:
- switch to OR immediately for +25% building production (ALL our mainland cities have buddhism)
- get immediate shared favourite civic with both Ramesses & Brennus.
- we can then use our beg points for wealth


Oh my GOD, 640 Caravels killed!!!!

edit: Yes, try to keep woodie alive, but we need to get him to woodie 3 2, otherwise he is just a drain on the economy.
Allow any unit other than an Axe to attack him, assuming he is fortified on a forest.

I propose Paris for TGL, and GP Farm for NE.
- We will need GP farm to pop a number of artists, minimising pollution seems desirable
- Paris is a good enough research city, with enough hammers to build TGL & Oxford.
- We weren't even sure what to build in Paris next, after the forge

edit 2: Wall Street & Sushi could go in Bibracte.
Maoi to go in East Fish.

 

[neilmeister]

Sorry guys, I contradicted myself in the last post.... thats the problem with edits sometimes.

OK, I will try TGL & NE both in GP Farm.
Commerce is an excellent proposition for a beauro cap. Not fully convinced yet, but we will see.

 

[SteelHorse]

AARGH This is the discussion I wanted us to have before I put the academy in Paris! Are we going to spend another GS on an academy for Commerce?

The Academy in Paris was a no-brainer. It had twice the beakers of Commerce, before we planted the Academy. Regardless of where a long term beauro cap goes, the Academy at this stage had to go in Paris.

Thought about this at the time and figured Commerce needs to mature and get cottages before putting an Academy in there. Paris is better for now, it has the trade routes. It will be a while before commerce is ready to take on the mantle. Nothing wrong with having two cities with Academies.

edit 3: OK, I eat my words. As you say, there are 3 hills in Commerce that we could use, but to work all 3, we would need to be working 5 FP's. So, at pop 8 it would have 1 surplus fpt and 12hpt.

Once we get levee's then Commerce will be an absolute monster, and then would I support building a Palace, problem is, this is usually long after Education.

Exactly. Its time will come.

Astro tech path
Lit -> Currency -> IW(steal) -> Compass -> Maths(trade) -> Calendar -> Machinery (bulb) -> Compass -> Astro (bulb)

Hopefully Calendar in trade or steal as well.

Can I suggest then that we make a trade, Alpha for Mono/Archery.
That way we can:
- switch to OR immediately for +25% building production (ALL our mainland cities have buddhism)
- get immediate shared favourite civic with both Ramesses & Brennus.
- we can then use our beg points for wealth

Yup - Maybe it will even encourage Brennus to go Math next.

What I am thinking is that for this game, we may need a non conventional approach. +50% commerce is miles more important than +50% hammers so much that we can ignore the effects of the hammer bonus. (Skipping Bur is just so silly that I don't even think it's worth a mention as a possibility ) Anyway, so the +50% commerce means that our best commerce city should be the capital which all points to commerce the city. So if we build Oxford in commerce after making it our capital which shouldn't be TOO hard with its 3 hills, it could be pretty strong.
...
Commerce: Palace, Oxford and....nothing?

What he said
Maybe a Uni and Salon as well.

The next big questions I see are:
1. When do we turn on Brennus? We need to be careful if there is a war, that he doesn't get his but kicked. We don't want an over powered Hatty.
2. What are the victory conditions? Turning things completely upside down - would diplo-domin be the quickest. On the turn the vote finishes - capture 5 or so cities with nukes and tanks to put us over the edge. Just being controversial again.
I just hate thinking that we ever want to run culture over tech on the slider when FT1 is the limiting factor.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

I just hate thinking that we ever want to run culture over tech on the slider when FT1 is the limiting factor.

Agree 100%. I also think for a long game heading to Future Tech 1, having two academies is a good thing.

 

[neilmeister]

We turn on Brennus when we have tech trade opportunities elsewhere AND have units.

Once Brennus is gone, Ramesses won't trade techs anymore, at least not until he meets someone else. Ramessses is looking pretty weak compared to Brennus, I'm a little more worried that if they go to war, Brennus will smack down Ramesses. This would be ideal if they were polite enough to wait for us to have some units to backstab Brennus with.

After Astro, then CS will probably be our next immediate goal, thus giving us Maces. Cats/Trebs/Maces can win any war.

I don't think we will need the culture slider personally. This map already looks like a sushi wonderland. We obviously will need to build the culture multipliers in our legendary cities, but the raw culture will come from sushi.

Yes, Commerce to get an Academy later for sure. They generate Culture as well.
I will tentatively say that 3 legendary cities will probably be Paris, Production & Commerce. They will have a lot of hammers to build the culture buildings and multipliers.

 

[Revent]

Just as a reminder, Oxford, NE, TGL, Palace aren't as expensive as you may think. With a forge in the city, we will be getting a 75% production bonus as well which means that it will actually be 21 base hammers per turn in commerce.

My proposed plan for not beelining Astro:
Steal Iron Working and Monotheism (use E slider if need be)
Trade for Maths
Currency
Music
Trade for Monarchy and Calendar (revolt to Her rule and build MoM in production)
Research, trade or steal CoL (revolt to caste once our basic infra is set up in cities)
Trade for Feudalism
Bulb Philosophy
Research Compass
Bulb Machinery
Research Civil Service
Research Paper
Bulb Education
Bulb Printing Press
Research Optics
Bulb Astro



8 scientists in GP farm (with NE) means that getting all those GS's should be possible I think

 

[Revent]

The next big questions I see are:
1. When do we turn on Brennus? We need to be careful if there is a war, that he doesn't get his but kicked. We don't want an over powered Hatty.
2. What are the victory conditions? Turning things completely upside down - would diplo-domin be the quickest. On the turn the vote finishes - capture 5 or so cities with nukes and tanks to put us over the edge. Just being controversial again.
I just hate thinking that we ever want to run culture over tech on the slider when FT1 is the limiting factor.

1. Depends strongly on the route we take. An Astro beeline means we COULD do an Eng rush as well..
2. I vote completely AGAINST space race. Nothing can persuade me to choose space no matter how much the convenience of it. Diplo and domination could work or domination/culture or diplo/culture. However, planning this will be VERY difficult.

One point I'd like to mention is, are we evaluation our limiting factor correctly? How can one be so sure that it is Future Tech 1? Can it not be two LC's?

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Once we get Brennus to Pleased and beg, and also steal Iron Working, we can reopen borders with Ramesses to rejuvenate our trade routes, right?

 

[Revent]

As for general city builds: I think Production should be PURELY dedicated to building wonders now. One, it denies the AI and two it helps our culture. It will also as a result end up as our legendary city. Anything else in my opinion would be a waste.

 

[Revent]

Once we get Brennus to Pleased and beg, and also steal Iron Working, we can reopen borders with Ramesses to rejuvenate our trade routes, right?

Depends how long he has the refuse to talk thing. Will check it out.

 

[neilmeister]

Wow, thats an aggressive bulbing plan, I think you are right that we should be able to generate the GS's required, what I doubt is your trading plans. I can't see the 2 AI we have trading these techs with us for some time. Maths should be OK, and probably Monarchy too, but the others will not be tradeable for some time. Monopoly techs and all that.

Regarding Production, it is a weapon of mass production. We should point it at whatever we need. Wonders are great if we need them soon, or if they are useful long term. I see a lot of units being built here in the not too distant future.

I'm not too concerned about denying the AI wonders, we do want the other continent to be advanced.

Agreed regarding opening borders, as soon as we have begged from Brennus, we need to reopen borders with Ramesses. He should be speaking to us by then but we might have to gift him a tech (Alpha probably) to get him happy enough to actually open borders

 

[neilmeister]

Just as a reminder, Oxford, NE, TGL, Palace aren't as expensive as you may think. With a forge in the city, we will be getting a 75% production bonus as well which means that it will actually be 21 base hammers per turn in commerce.

75% prod bonus

Don't forget OR, so it will be 50% bonus to build Palace in Commerce (assuming a forge), and 100% bonus after Palace and CS.

NE is definitely going in GP Farm, and TGL probably as well, for a OR/Forge bonus of 50%

Whoa, completely forgot we were Industrious.


Don't forget OR, 100% bonus to build Palace in Commerce (assuming a forge), and 150% bonus after Palace and CS.

 

[Revent]

Wow, thats an aggressive bulbing plan, I think you are right that we should be able to generate the GS's required, what I doubt is your trading plans. I can't see the 2 AI we have trading these techs with us for some time. Maths should be OK, and probably Monarchy too, but the others will not be tradeable for some time. Monopoly techs and all that.

Regarding Production, it is a weapon of mass production. We should point it at whatever we need. Wonders are great if we need them soon, or if they are useful long term. I see a lot of units being built here in the not too distant future.

I'm not too concerned about denying the AI wonders, we do want the other continent to be advanced.

Agreed regarding opening borders, as soon as we have begged from Brennus, we need to reopen borders with Ramesses. He should be speaking to us by then but we might have to gift him a tech (Alpha probably) to get him happy enough to actually open borders

It is pretty aggressive (and I'd like to think) well thought out I haven't actually proof checked to see if it would work though I just remember that Compass before CS to get the Machinery bulb and the rest was off of memory from playing and having done it previously.

As for AI trades, we WILL get Brennus to friendly so trade caps should not be an issue. Even if it is, Feudalism isn't necessary; I was just adding it in so that we could get en route to get Economics GM. Ramesses should not be TOO hard to get to pleased with Org Religion. Perhaps we could even use a spy to revolt him to Buddhism for some extra. Plus fair trade bonuses...His WFYABTA limit is 22 if I remember correctly so we have no worries since he will be dead by then.

Following Astro, we should make a beeline towards our Lib target and COMPLETELY focus on that. Most likely a culture tech or sushi I think.

We can build units in production, however units are not necessary (yet) and building warriors would waste a lot of overflow since the base is reasonably high. By the way, are we preparing for a contingency in case Brennus declares?

Reason for wonders in production is that it's far better than building culture since building culture doesn't go through culture multipliers (which we better have lots of!)

Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot about OR meaning we get a double production (and then even more once we get Bur)