SGOTM 16 - U'nu'sual S'us'pec'ts

[SteelHorse]

Also, Qin has Philo and CS. Should we be concerned with him in a Lib race? Suggest moving EP there. Why on Sal?

 

[neilmeister]

1. I am concerned with a small stack, in the heart of Brennus land when we don't know where his stack is and how big. Say we capture Bibs, and 20 CWs and chariots show up and want their capital back before it comes out of 9 turns of revolt. Our wounded small stack will be squashed.

This is my major concern as well, that it would be a beachhead that couldn't hold on. I do see value in doing it, but it is a big risk.

If we had an unstoppable SoD of 20-30 units going through Tolosa to Bibracte, we could still have a smaller mini-stack (6-8 units) go through Vermilion & Camulodunum.

To be honest, I would consider taking these 4 cities as a big success and the war is won.

2. What about DoW-ing Rams and then bribe Brens in, I think it should cost less then it does now. And it accomplishes the same goal of getting him fighting on two sides. The stack is problem left down there anyways from his last war on the border with his worst enemy.

This is a really good idea, I need to go study DoW AI mechanics...


edit:

Also, Qin has Philo and CS. Should we be concerned with him in a Lib race? Suggest moving EP there. Why on Sal?

Probably not, as our tech rate just picked up massively, and we will probably get another GS to part bulb Edu. He doesn't even have Currency.
Agreed, esp on Qin.

 

[neilmeister]

Maple Sporks have caught up to us, and their power is starting to spike as well.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Chris has a year and a bit on you though, I wonder how many other players who joined in 2001 are still playing.

Hmm, I got my start playing Civ (original) when I was in grad school...

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Doesn't look like I'm reasonably going to be able to make a test game - it's just too much work for the amount of time I have available. Revent, can you explain why you think it would be useful?

 

[Revent]

I'll make the test save tonight within reason. The idea is to replicate his cities and then we could test out an approach via a galleon and without the galleons and alternative approaches.

The idea is to see what would work best for us.

Our scouting will give us an indication of the units Brennus will have.

Honestly, what I plan to do is give us all the techs on the right turns, etc.. and make the cities the right sizes and give brennus the units and etc....

 

[Revent]

Oh my God, I got SO scared!

I was just pressing end turn repeatedly
Then I got a notification that I popped a gold and I just froze thinking this was the real game! Then I looked and saw it popped in Orleans!

What are the odds? ahahaha

 

[Revent]

Okay, so I tried to make a test save and it ended up being a disaster!

Nevermind that then, nothing to see here as Neil would say


Okay, going to have a look at our save now and come up with a plan for the next three turns.

Let me look at the details and everything.

@Neil, you don't need to pipe down!!! Everyone else needs to pipe it up!!

 

[Revent]

Okay a bit of a side track - piping up.
Thoughts on GS (and I may be missing a few things so feel free to shoot at it)

1. Bulb Educ - 1500 + 3*76 = 1728 beakers immediately or roughly 7 turns of research at sustainable rate (60%). And Theoretically Unis and Oxford 7 turns sooner and a few subsequent techs (Lib) until the Academy benefits catch up.

2. Academy in Commerce - trickier to analyze.
Current 47 comm/turn
Assume 100 turns left.
Assume we grow Commerce to max potential 16 tiles each with a river town (6 comm/tile/turn).
Make it the Cap with Bureau +3 comm/tile or not with FS +2 comm/tile
16*9 = 144 comm/turn at max (or 16*8 = 128)
Sustainable slider at 60%.
So average comm/turn over 100 turns assuming even growth = (144+47)/2 = 100 comm/turn * 60% = 60 bpt * 100 turns = 6000 beakers. Academy would add 50% over the life so 3000 beakers (ignoring the rest of the buildings as we only are concerned with Acad).

Note: Commerce will be able to produce much more research than Paris ever can if it is appropriately configured assuming we are in FS (or Burea but it would need to be the capital) and working the 16 rivertowns.

Other Note: since we will be whipping our pop down the bulb value will decrease somewhat as well by the time we get to Educ.

What does this all mean?
Is 1700 beakers in the hand + Uni/Oxf + FS 7 turns earlier worth 3000 over 100 turns.
7 turns of Uni in Paris and Commerce = 25% of 100 comm/turn(combined) * 60% = 6 -not much
7 turns of Oxf in Paris or Commerce = 100% of 50 bpt * 60% = 30 - not much either
FS for 7 turns not much either at this point

So it seems that if we want Commerce to be our long term research center, which I think we do, then building an Academy in Commerce is the smart thing to do.

But can we have our cake and eat it too? Perhaps - we have another GP in a dozen or so turns and likely to be a GS and we are planning to go CS->Eng->Paper which will take longer than 12 turns. If we go direct CS-Paper-Educ do not pass Eng do not collect $200, then an argument could be made to use second GS (hopefully) for Academy in Commerce.

So my vote is to put the darn GS to work now instead of in a dozen turns if we are going Eng next. Build Oxf in commerce, Run FS after Lib, and leave Paris as Cap.

Not a side track at all! I actually agree with your idea. Number crunching is very persuasive and convincing.

Commerce will be a great research city and Oxford site.

If we were to build the palace in commerce:
160 hammers for the benefit of (Commerce max commerce - Paris max commerce)*1.5N where N is the number of turns we will run Bur.

What we can do is grow the cottages overlapping between Commerce and Paris; when we have Bur on, let Paris work the cottages until OU is built in Commerce. From there, we can calculate which city would be better off working the overlapping cottages.

 

[neilmeister]

Okay, so I tried to make a test save and it ended up being a disaster!

Nevermind that then, nothing to see here as Neil would say


Okay, going to have a look at our save now and come up with a plan for the next three turns.

Let me look at the details and everything.

@Neil, you don't need to pipe down!!! Everyone else needs to pipe it up!!

I thought you might have issues with a test save at this stage of the game.

Piping up We would really like that stone Brennus has for Oxford.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

If we were to build the palace in commerce:
160 hammers for the benefit of (Commerce max commerce - Paris max commerce)*1.5N where N is the number of turns we will run Bur.

We also get less distance penalties for many of our cities.

 

[Trystero]

We also get less distance penalties for many of our cities.

Commerce is 4 tiles W of Paris. Would we really get that much of a savings in distance penalty? I ask since I don't usually consider moving my capital.

Also, I vote for SH's plan to use the GS to build the Academy in Commerce, regardless of whether we move the palace.

 

[Revent]

Exploration:
Chariot 1- Move to 1S of Tolosa, note units and move to pigs 1SE if moves left. Move again as necessary if required. Note all units and all units in cities.

Chariot 10: Move to stone. Note units in Vienne. Explore further 1SW if moves left over.

Chariot 9: Currently in Clams, start moving south to explore cities. Get position so that it is outside Brennus's borders 4S of Durocortum. (Shall I do this?)

Chariot 6: Currently in Fake Humbaba, move to West Fish. Let Galley 1 Pick up and transport this over to between Elephantine and Memphis. Explore Thebes.

Galley 1: Escort Chariot 6 to Rams land to explore Thebes after dropping workers off.

Trireme 3: Explore the ice islands for any future cities for sushi food.

Spy 2: Move NE and then explore direction dependant on roads.

Buddhist Missionary: Spread to Qin's capital and let it spam us some missionaries. Will be amazing in future EP misions if we do any.


Macro:
Explore! Explore! Explore!
Whip some units
Research Civil Service
Great Scientist to build academy in commerce
Switch to Bur and Her Rule or Bur and The if possible.
Trade for theology if possible; within reason.
Switch EP to Qin
No more binary (for now)

Micro:
Paris- Work plains forest instead of coastal tile. Next turn, work a coastal tile instead of a plains cottage. Third turn, 2 pop whip with max OF.
GP Farm- Work same tiles, slow build harbour in the 3 turns.
Production- Crossbowman, Crossbowman (whip with max OF)
Commerce- Bud Mon, Catapult (whip with max OF?)
Clams- Work current tiles, next turn switch over grassland hill to plains forest. Following turn, whip with max OF.
West Fish-Galleon for 1 turn, work same tiles. Next turn, work unmined plains hill instead of cottage. Following turn, 2 pop whip into LH or another galleon,
Barb City- Build crossbowman, work coast tile instead of plains forest for first two turns. Following that, whip with max overflow.
Zhou- First turn, work horses, sheep, fish, mined plains hill and coastal tile with an Eng Spec. Next turn, replace Eng with grassland cottage tile or Spy Spec (I suggest Spy because cottage shouldn't have been built in that city imo.) Then WHIP!
Fake Humbaba-blah
West Coast Silk-Work current tiles, whip into Xbow or Cat.
Wheat- Whip whenever possible?


Okay sorry, plan is not complete but my eyes are closing and I don't want to accidentally delete everything by mistake!

I'll edit in my worker micro plans.

Worker Micro:
Teo Worker-Irrigate (2 turns), Move 1S2E of GP Farm and road
Worker 3- 1SW, Irrigate (2 turns), Move 1N of Commerce and Mine
Worker 8- Build a road (2 turns), Move 1SW of Barb City

Worker 5- Mine (1 turn), Move 1NW and farm
Worker 6- Mine (1 turn), Move 1NW and farm, Move 1W of Wheat and chop
Worker 4- Move 1N2W and chop

Worker 1- Move to forest 1S of Sugar and chop
Worker 7- Move to forest 1S of Sugar and chop
Huacan Worker-Mine


Trades:
Pigs for Rice with Sitting Bull
Sheep for Cows with Hammurabi
Gift horses to Saladin???




Feel free to rip all of this apart!

 

[SteelHorse]

What we can do is grow the cottages overlapping between Commerce and Paris; when we have Bur on, let Paris work the cottages until OU is built in Commerce. From there, we can calculate which city would be better off working the overlapping cottages.

Personally, I think we will be in Free Speech soon, so it is not worth moving the Palace to Commerce. Instead of Palace - Uni, Oxf, Salon. Why FS - we need the 100% Culture for our 2 Legendary cities and it gives 2 commerce/town instead of the +50% (which would be 3 comm/turn/tile) commerce. So a little more less commerce, but we need to start on our legendary cities.
But I wholeheartedly agree with taking the Paris cottage/town tiles as we have citizens available.

 

[Revent]

Okay, plan is done now! Sorry about having to edit it in but I didn't want to accidentally delete it all

 

[Revent]

Personally, I think we will be in Free Speech soon, so it is not worth moving the Palace to Commerce. Instead of Palace - Uni, Oxf, Salon. Why FS - we need the 100% Culture for our 2 Legendary cities and it gives 2 commerce/town instead of the +50% (which would be 3 comm/turn/tile) commerce. So a little more commerce, but we need to start on our legendary cities.
But I wholeheartedly agree with taking the Paris cottage/town tiles as we have citizens available.

I agree on palace not being worth the move.

Not sure if we want to switch to FS as soon as it's available though! That will have to be calculated since Neil has shown us that culture will not be a limiting factor so we want to optimise research first!!

Also, a question, how do we plan to utilise the EP we have against Brennus? I think it would be such a waste if he dies and we don't use it!

 

[SteelHorse]

Exploration:
Chariot 1- Move to 1S of Tolosa, note units and move to pigs 1SE if moves left. Move again as necessary if required. Note all units and all units in cities.

Yes - leave him in a good spot before DoW as he will be our super medic.

Chariot 10: Move to stone. Note units in Vienne. Explore further 1SW if moves left over.

Or do we want him to head west? We have 12 or so turns - ok. I am good, but then west where we suspect the big stack is.

Chariot 9: Currently in Clams, start moving south to explore cities. Get position so that it is outside Brennus's borders 4S of Durocortum. (Shall I do this?)

I think he should be part of the main stack, but we have a dozen turns. Keep in our borders for maintenance purposes.

Chariot 6: Currently in Fake Humbaba, move to West Fish. Let Galley 1 Pick up and transport this over to between Elephantine and Memphis. Explore Thebes.
Galley 1: Escort Chariot 6 to Rams land to explore Thebes after dropping workers off.

Great thinking!!! In any case we should know how Rams it situated. Note units as well.

Trireme 3: Explore the ice islands for any future cities for sushi food.

Gosh - your being optimistic. Personally - I would bring back to the west coast as a guard.

Spy 2: Move NE and then explore direction dependant on roads.

Yes - but tread softly. mark units as well.

Buddhist Missionary: Spread to Qin's capital and let it spam us some missionaries. Will be amazing in future EP misions if we do any.

Good luck - mark units as well. (i know this is tedious, but understanding whether these folks have stacks may help us later.

Macro:
Explore! Explore! Explore!
Whip some units

What kind of units do you have in mind????

Research Civil Service
Great Scientist to build academy in commerce
Switch to Bur and Her Rule or Bur and The if possible.
Trade for theology if possible; within reason.
Switch EP to Qin
No more binary (for now)

Concur on all points.

Micro:
West Fish-Galleon for 1 turn, work same tiles. Next turn, work unmined plains hill instead of cottage. Following turn, 2 pop whip into LH or another galleon,

My view is to keep whipping this to 3 pop - so no need for lighthouse.

Barb City- Build crossbowman, work coast tile instead of plains forest for first two turns. Following that, whip with max overflow.

Whip off the unimproved tiles. I am not great on the optimizing, but you must whip it. " break your momma's back".

Zhou- First turn, work horses, sheep, fish, mined plains hill and coastal tile with an Eng Spec. Next turn, replace Eng with grassland cottage tile or Spy Spec (I suggest Spy because cottage shouldn't have been built in that city imo.) Then WHIP!

Whip at 2 pop. I would go Eng Spec - but again, I am not counting the hammers.
FakeH - give up on the cottage, take the mine, whip the CH at 2 pop.
WestCoastSilk - Finish Barrack whip CB for defense, move chariot to attack stack.
Wheat - Barracks, Cats - whip down to 2 pop continuously. Road to SE

Worker Micro:
Worker 8- Build a road (2 turns), Move 1SW of Barb City
Worker 5- Mine (1 turn), Move 1NW and farm
Worker 6- Mine (1 turn), Move 1NW and farm, Move 1W of Wheat and chop
Huacan Worker-Mine

W8 - Road to Prod for unit movement
W5, W6 - finish mine, road, Move 1 N, chop, farm, road - for troops
Huacan Worker-Mine then road
Rest look good!

Trades:
Pigs for Rice with Sitting Bull
Sheep for Cows with Hammurabi
Gift horses to Saladin???

Hammy Horse for all Health! (Cow, Crab Rice).
Let SB+Sal sit for now.

Green from me!!

 

[SteelHorse]

Not sure if we want to switch to FS as soon as it's available though! That will have to be calculated since Neil has shown us that culture will not be a limiting factor so we want to optimise research first!!

Agreed - not sure on timing of FS. Definitely will need to consider when is optimal!

Also, a question, how do we plan to utilise the EP we have against Brennus? I think it would be such a waste if he dies and we don't use it!

Great point - steal his gold !!!!

 

[neilmeister]

Make the Cow, Crabs, Rice for Horse trade first.

I wouldn't worry about maximising overflow at this point, just keep whipping every city every 2 turns. Some whips will be for 2 pop, some for 1. We aren't trying to be super efficient, just build an unstoppable army in the shortest possible timeframe.

All of our builders (you know who you are) will be amazed at how well the big cities will be able to cope with this. Whip it good!

NO BARRACKS for Wheat and West Coast Silk. Waste of hammers at this stage IMO.

I like the idea of galleons from the island, and leaving the mainland for troops.

Workers to build roads as 1st priority!!!

Happy to steal treasury from Brennus, its a good use of our EP's

 

[SteelHorse]

Do we think there will be a mini-set today?