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SGOTM 16 - U'nu'sual S'us'pec'ts
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Phoenix Rising attacked.
In other news, this weekend kind of filled up with real life stuff. And exams look much closer on this side of November. So I think I'm going to have to pass along the torch. I kept thinking I was "going to have time to put together a new PPP tomorrow", but then never did. And I don't want to keep the game dragging.
In other news, this weekend kind of filled up with real life stuff. And exams look much closer on this side of November. So I think I'm going to have to pass along the torch. I kept thinking I was "going to have time to put together a new PPP tomorrow", but then never did. And I don't want to keep the game dragging.
Trystero
Deity
No problem. Thanks Benginal!
Revent is UP! Chris is on deck:
- ChrisShaffer - (t0-31) - on deck available Nov. 12
- neilmeister - (t32-57)(109-122)
- Trystero - (t58-72)(t123-135)
- Revent - (t73-81) - UP
- Benginal - (t82-95)(t140-145) - just played
- SteelHorse - (t135-139)
- vra379971
- Deckhand - (t96-108) - available in December
- Brian Shanahan - consulting
Edit: ...and, at last, I have some time to look at the save.
OK, lets get this argument going again. 
What we may need is a series of mini-sets, I know its painful, but this war and how we conduct it will be crucial to our hopes of securing a grand victory.
First things first, we have to finish CS in 2 turns, and revolt into Beauro and ?? If a Theology trade is available, we can seriously consider Theocracy, otherwise HR.
- We can start whipping units now, as we can do galleons, x-bows and the odd spear. (west coast galleons only though)
- We can explore Brennus' south and west, to discover if he has stacks and/or road networks.
So, in 3 turns we arrive at the decision point about how we will conduct the war, and what tech we need next.
What we may need is a series of mini-sets, I know its painful, but this war and how we conduct it will be crucial to our hopes of securing a grand victory.
First things first, we have to finish CS in 2 turns, and revolt into Beauro and ?? If a Theology trade is available, we can seriously consider Theocracy, otherwise HR.
- We can start whipping units now, as we can do galleons, x-bows and the odd spear. (west coast galleons only though)
- We can explore Brennus' south and west, to discover if he has stacks and/or road networks.
So, in 3 turns we arrive at the decision point about how we will conduct the war, and what tech we need next.
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
Back in town, recovering from my trips, looking forward to Revent's series of mini-sets! Will be able to comment more as the weekend progresses.
Well, mini sets are actually perfectly cool with me.
However, until then, do you think it would be possible to get any form of a test game up?
I think this is going to be one of the most crucial parts of the game so a test game will not do us wrong!
As for mini turnsets, this perfectly suits my availability at the moment since I cannot commit TOO much time to playing Civ these days.
If anyone wants to post a general plan of what I should be doing, feel free to and I'll have a look at all the ideas from everyone!
I'd like EVERYONE's input including reasons and everything! So, let's try not to make it just Neil and I arguing over the outcome and people taking sides; I'd like opinions on every little thing including little micro things or general macro or trades or whatever! Everything counts
With that said, it's bed time for me, so g'night!!
However, until then, do you think it would be possible to get any form of a test game up?
I think this is going to be one of the most crucial parts of the game so a test game will not do us wrong!
As for mini turnsets, this perfectly suits my availability at the moment since I cannot commit TOO much time to playing Civ these days.
If anyone wants to post a general plan of what I should be doing, feel free to and I'll have a look at all the ideas from everyone!
I'd like EVERYONE's input including reasons and everything! So, let's try not to make it just Neil and I arguing over the outcome and people taking sides; I'd like opinions on every little thing including little micro things or general macro or trades or whatever! Everything counts
With that said, it's bed time for me, so g'night!!
SteelHorse
Deity
I think a culture flip will be inefficient. If it happens as a result of Sushi, cool, but otherwise, in my opinion, not worth the effort. A couple of tactical nukes will do the job.
i think this is the proper way to deal with Humbaba.
Why do folks think we has been editted in mid-game? First time I recall a game being changed half way through.
lurker's comment: He was reinstated, not edited. In a few of the teams' games, he had disbanded, so I have put him back.
I do recall having to edit a Civ3 SGOTM in mid-game once, to fix a problem with a unit definition.
I do recall having to edit a Civ3 SGOTM in mid-game once, to fix a problem with a unit definition.
Well, mini sets are actually perfectly cool with me.
However, until then, do you think it would be possible to get any form of a test game up?
I think this is going to be one of the most crucial parts of the game so a test game will not do us wrong!
As for mini turnsets, this perfectly suits my availability at the moment since I cannot commit TOO much time to playing Civ these days.
If anyone wants to post a general plan of what I should be doing, feel free to and I'll have a look at all the ideas from everyone!
I'd like EVERYONE's input including reasons and everything! So, let's try not to make it just Neil and I arguing over the outcome and people taking sides; I'd like opinions on every little thing including little micro things or general macro or trades or whatever! Everything counts
With that said, it's bed time for me, so g'night!!
I don't know what the real benefit of a test game will be, we cannot predict how many units Brennus has, where they are, what he is researching now, what he will do with the large number of ESP points he has on us.......
I think all we can do is play it by ear.
Everyone has contributed to the discussion, but we might be drowning out the others. I will pipe down to try allow others to comment more, especially on this topic.
Having said that, I would still like you to plan 3 turns, get us into Beauro/??, do a bit more exploring of Brennus. Then we might be in a better position to decide what to do next.
We can still plant another crap city to his NE, which will help greatly to a flip, but it's not something we have to worry about now.
The submission script in SGOTM 14 was edited by AlanH to see if the Wizard of Oz had disbanded, luckily he hadn't, but if he had, we would have had to edit the game.
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
Nobody should pipe down. Please don't do that.
I can take a shot at a test game tomorrow, though I don't know how useful it will be.
I can take a shot at a test game tomorrow, though I don't know how useful it will be.
Trystero
Deity
I am also skeptical of how useful a test game would be. There would be far too many differences between our saves and the real thing. I think that is why we planned the mini-turnsets: take it slow and steady and adapt to the changing circumstances. You could world-builder specific circumstances, such as how would our units do against specific defenders if the city had x amount of cultural defense left and walls, etc.
I also don't think neil and Revent are drowning out the rest of us, and I also don't want you to pipe down. No harm comes from lots of input.
I also don't think neil and Revent are drowning out the rest of us, and I also don't want you to pipe down. No harm comes from lots of input.
SteelHorse
Deity
Thanks Alan for the clarification. Was trying to read too much into it.
Hmm - a strategy we didn't consider, get him to disband. Or better, defect to our side.
(Civ3 SGOTM - my you have been around a while)
Your Tin anniversary (10 years) is in 2 months then. I see you used to play on X-team, (edit: you were actually one of the founders 
) with Gyathaar and leif erikson, back in the day. You even won a SGOTMChris has a year and a bit on you though, I wonder how many other players who joined in 2001 are still playing.
SteelHorse
Deity
Okay a bit of a side track - piping up.
Thoughts on GS (and I may be missing a few things so feel free to shoot at it)
1. Bulb Educ - 1500 + 3*76 = 1728 beakers immediately or roughly 7 turns of research at sustainable rate (60%). And Theoretically Unis and Oxford 7 turns sooner and a few subsequent techs (Lib) until the Academy benefits catch up.
2. Academy in Commerce - trickier to analyze.
Current 47 comm/turn
Assume 100 turns left.
Assume we grow Commerce to max potential 16 tiles each with a river town (6 comm/tile/turn).
Make it the Cap with Bureau +3 comm/tile or not with FS +2 comm/tile
16*9 = 144 comm/turn at max (or 16*8 = 128)
Sustainable slider at 60%.
So average comm/turn over 100 turns assuming even growth = (144+47)/2 = 100 comm/turn * 60% = 60 bpt * 100 turns = 6000 beakers. Academy would add 50% over the life so 3000 beakers (ignoring the rest of the buildings as we only are concerned with Acad).
Note: Commerce will be able to produce much more research than Paris ever can if it is appropriately configured assuming we are in FS (or Burea but it would need to be the capital) and working the 16 rivertowns.
Other Note: since we will be whipping our pop down the bulb value will decrease somewhat as well by the time we get to Educ.
What does this all mean?
Is 1700 beakers in the hand + Uni/Oxf + FS 7 turns earlier worth 3000 over 100 turns.
7 turns of Uni in Paris and Commerce = 25% of 100 comm/turn(combined) * 60% = 6 -not much
7 turns of Oxf in Paris or Commerce = 100% of 50 bpt * 60% = 30 - not much either
FS for 7 turns not much either at this point
So it seems that if we want Commerce to be our long term research center, which I think we do, then building an Academy in Commerce is the smart thing to do.
But can we have our cake and eat it too? Perhaps - we have another GP in a dozen or so turns and likely to be a GS and we are planning to go CS->Eng->Paper which will take longer than 12 turns. If we go direct CS-Paper-Educ do not pass Eng do not collect $200, then an argument could be made to use second GS (hopefully) for Academy in Commerce.
So my vote is to put the darn GS to work now instead of in a dozen turns if we are going Eng next. Build Oxf in commerce, Run FS after Lib, and leave Paris as Cap.
Thoughts on GS (and I may be missing a few things so feel free to shoot at it)
1. Bulb Educ - 1500 + 3*76 = 1728 beakers immediately or roughly 7 turns of research at sustainable rate (60%). And Theoretically Unis and Oxford 7 turns sooner and a few subsequent techs (Lib) until the Academy benefits catch up.
2. Academy in Commerce - trickier to analyze.
Current 47 comm/turn
Assume 100 turns left.
Assume we grow Commerce to max potential 16 tiles each with a river town (6 comm/tile/turn).
Make it the Cap with Bureau +3 comm/tile or not with FS +2 comm/tile
16*9 = 144 comm/turn at max (or 16*8 = 128)
Sustainable slider at 60%.
So average comm/turn over 100 turns assuming even growth = (144+47)/2 = 100 comm/turn * 60% = 60 bpt * 100 turns = 6000 beakers. Academy would add 50% over the life so 3000 beakers (ignoring the rest of the buildings as we only are concerned with Acad).
Note: Commerce will be able to produce much more research than Paris ever can if it is appropriately configured assuming we are in FS (or Burea but it would need to be the capital) and working the 16 rivertowns.
Other Note: since we will be whipping our pop down the bulb value will decrease somewhat as well by the time we get to Educ.
What does this all mean?
Is 1700 beakers in the hand + Uni/Oxf + FS 7 turns earlier worth 3000 over 100 turns.
7 turns of Uni in Paris and Commerce = 25% of 100 comm/turn(combined) * 60% = 6 -not much
7 turns of Oxf in Paris or Commerce = 100% of 50 bpt * 60% = 30 - not much either
FS for 7 turns not much either at this point
So it seems that if we want Commerce to be our long term research center, which I think we do, then building an Academy in Commerce is the smart thing to do.
But can we have our cake and eat it too? Perhaps - we have another GP in a dozen or so turns and likely to be a GS and we are planning to go CS->Eng->Paper which will take longer than 12 turns. If we go direct CS-Paper-Educ do not pass Eng do not collect $200, then an argument could be made to use second GS (hopefully) for Academy in Commerce.
So my vote is to put the darn GS to work now instead of in a dozen turns if we are going Eng next. Build Oxf in commerce, Run FS after Lib, and leave Paris as Cap.
SteelHorse
Deity
Who would have guessed no Civ4/5. I started when I got Civ 3 as a gift almost 10 years ago as well. Got into the SGOTMS much later though. Do want to thank you though for all the time and effort you've put in over the years. It really keeps the community going!
Nice analysis, especially the part about having our cake and eating it. Also, Edu is expensive, it will take us a few turns to research it even if we part bulb it, so we have longer than 12 turns.
Agreed regarding Commerce, 16 cottages is compelling.
With tech sales/banks/shrines in the later game, 60% sustainable tech rate might also be a touch conservative.
So, I will also vote for an Academy.
edit:
Hear hear!
Agreed regarding Commerce, 16 cottages is compelling.
With tech sales/banks/shrines in the later game, 60% sustainable tech rate might also be a touch conservative.
So, I will also vote for an Academy.
edit:
Hear hear!
SteelHorse
Deity
OK, lets get this argument going again.
What we may need is a series of mini-sets, I know its painful, but this war and how we conduct it will be crucial to our hopes of securing a grand victory.
First things first, we have to finish CS in 2 turns, and revolt into Beauro and ?? If a Theology trade is available, we can seriously consider Theocracy, otherwise HR.
- We can start whipping units now, as we can do galleons, x-bows and the odd spear. (west coast galleons only though)
- We can explore Brennus' south and west, to discover if he has stacks and/or road networks.
So, in 3 turns we arrive at the decision point about how we will conduct the war, and what tech we need next.
1. I remain skeptical of of Galleon approach, but would be very happy to be proved wrong. I am concerned with a small stack, in the heart of Brennus land when we don't know where his stack is and how big. Say we capture Bibs, and 20 CWs and chariots show up and want their capital back before it comes out of 9 turns of revolt. Our wounded small stack will be squashed. So before whipping Galleons, please locate the stack. If we're going whip now, Cats aren't bad, and Maces in 2 turns.
2. What about DoW-ing Rams and then bribe Brens in, I think it should cost less then it does now. And it accomplishes the same goal of getting him fighting on two sides. The stack is problem left down there anyways from his last war on the border with his worst enemy. Maybe he just declares anyways in 10 turns and solves the problem.
3. Yes and Yes to Bureau and Theo trade if it is there. I am fine with HR as it will help with revolting captured cities.
4. I like the mini-sets. I should have time to stay tuned for most of the long US weekend.
