SGOTM 16 - U'nu'sual S'us'pec'ts

[ChrisShaffer]

I'm ok for playing. Even an Irishman can't spread a weekend's drinking out a whole month!
As regards the match it was a draw, but we won the fight

Is this a time warp post? Deckhand is already playing...

 

[Revent]

Hey guys, I made a mistake

I accidentally moved the warrior in the real save. Sorry!!

 

[ChrisShaffer]

PM Alan and then when he gives the OK upload your save.

 

[Revent]

PM Alan and then when he gives the OK upload your save.

Do I need to PM him? It was the (latest) save I downloaded from the gotm site.

Spoiler :

That's all.

 

[Trystero]

Do I need to PM him? It was the (latest) save I downloaded from the gotm site.

No you don't need to PM AlanH if we are continuing from the save where you moved the warrior. Please make sure that was the only change made (that is, you didn't commit us to particular builds in Production and Teo), and upload your save as the new official save.

 

[Revent]

No you don't need to PM AlanH if we are continuing from the save where you moved the warrior. Please make sure that was the only change made (that is, you didn't commit us to particular builds in Production and Teo), and upload your save as the new official save.

When I started the save, it asked me to choose a unit to build. However, that is a reversible move so there shouldn't be a problem with that.

 

[Trystero]

When I started the save, it asked me to choose a unit to build. However, that is a reversible move so there shouldn't be a problem with that.

You are correct. Let's just make sure we remember that those builds are placeholders (unless they are actually what we want to build. )

 

[Revent]

I've placed signs to remind. Once again, really sorry about that I was just trying to figure out some bits and bobs. Save uploaded.

 

[Deckhand]

Yes post your save.
We should also PM Alan. I have done some things in my save. I think they are all reversible so we can use your save. I added some signs at suggested city spots. I tried some builds and slider adjustments but they are all reversible. I don't think I did anything irreversible (I will open my save an look around).
EDIT: I just looked and only things I noticed were the signs and the slider, so we should use new save. Revent answered my question about moving warrior along road to look for a stack, he is taking the shorter path. I will redo all builds in accordance with the PPP, once we decide what we want to build. I would like a chariot in production to go north - what if there is marble there?
EDIT2. If we can decide today or tomorow about open questions/builds/tech, then I can finish the turnset Friday and Brian can take over this weekend.
EDIT3, well, after all Revent is "A wandering soul".

 

[Revent]

I agree with most of that, except delaying Astro. I haven't had time to do a proper analysis, too busy working. Sorry. Will have a better chance tomorow evening, but I don't expect us to wait for me. I very much want more cities, I would settle all of the offshore locations that have at least 1 food resource.
Happy to be a passenger regarding the spy, you guys know more about espionage than me.

I cannot accept that delaying Astro is anything but a bad idea, even by 1 turn.
Trade routes are already bringing in as many coins as ALL of the tiles we are working. We have gold, cottages, lots of seafood, so we are working a lot of coins, but trade routed bring in even more.

Trade route income is calculated on Population and DIstance. Astro trade routes will be crazy.

Getting Astro n turns earlier gives us a net gain of 6Nn commerce where N is the number of coastal cities. This is a reasonable assumption because if I remember correctly, TR values only increase if a city is above size 10 and distance is constant. It is unlikely for AI cities to be that big considering we are going to be beelining it after all (assuming we do beeline it).

We also get earlier contact with AI to get tech trading with them (may I say, slow Emp AI). However, that also means we reach the WFYABTA limit faster. However, this can also be offset by just researching Optics. Plus, the AI probably won't have MUCH to offer us.

We also unlock observatories which are pretty useful for the late game.

The losses of this are we lose n-a turns of Caste System (where a is the number of turns it takes us to get to CoL).

There is also the loss of the rate at which we can generate great people. Our GP farm at size nine can run 6 specialists. Right now, it can only run two. Our GP production rate will effectively be a third of what it could be! (Of course, the cost of a GP changes the more you generate but the idea still applies). The usefulness of GPs decreases late games so why not utilise them to the best of our abilities in the mid-game where they matter?

We also lose n-b turns of Philosophy (where b is the number of turns it takes to get to Phil). Disadvantages are effectively half of our GP generation. This also effectively halves our GP generation for n-b turns (Once again, not quite half, but you should get the idea).

Also, by bulbing Philosophy and founding Taoism, we are ALSO guaranteeing ourselves something good to make the most of Lib as the AI will no longer prioritise one of the preqs for Lib. Emp AI are too slow to get to it before we can get something good from it!

If we discover Astro at turn X which is any point in the future without actually beelining it, the loss of potential commerce which we lose is 6N(X-n). However this is offset by the extra turns we get of The Colossus which is difficult to calculate. Island cities will have lots of these tiles being worked whilst our main cities may work at best one or two of these (or none, but these tiles do become desirable with The Colossus). The value for this will be 3Z(X-n) (where Z is the number of coastal tiles being worked). I may have done some bad maths here so feel free to correct me Even if my maths is bad, to bear in mind is that the value of Z can easily increase whilst the value 3 is a constant. Settling a new city for example will increase the number of commerce by TRs by 6, but at size 1, it can contribute 3 commerce, at size 2, 6 all the way to size 8 where it can contribute 24 commerce (very possible for an island city with food).

So what we can work out is at what point does 6N offsets 3Z theoretically. If we can work it out using some trial and error by working out maximum number of cities, etc..The point at which 6N offsets 3Z is when we should research Astronomy.

 

[Revent]

Yes post your save.
We should also PM Alan. I have done some things in my save. I think they are all reversible so we can use your save. I added some signs at suggested city spots. I tried some builds and slider adjustments but they are all reversible. I don't think I did anything irreversible (I will open my save an look around).
EDIT: I just looked and only things I noticed were the signs and the slider, so we should use new save. Revent answered my question about moving warrior along road to look for a stack, he is taking the shorter path. I will redo all builds in accordance with the PPP, once we decide what we want to build. I would like a chariot in production to go north - what if there is marble there?
EDIT2. If we can decide today or tomorow about open questions/builds/tech, then I can finish the turnset Friday and Brian can take over this weekend.
EDIT3, well, after all Revent is "A wandering soul".

I've PM'ed him to notify just in case.

Okay sure, that all seems good! I vote we build the Colossus pretty soon in any ideal city OTHER than GP farm. (The merchant pollution may not be ideal or optimal because the way GP's are generated is a bit funny I think).

Wandering soul is a perfect description The wandering warrior may end up seeing a stack


To bear in mind is that if Brennus is planning a total war, it will take atleast 30 turns for him to prepare (unless my memory is bad )

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Just a reminder that this is the current proposal. More feedback needed. I will try to post my response tonight.

350 BC PPP draft turns 101 - ~108
This isn’t ready to play. We want more than we can build immediately. We need to decide priorities and city builds (and big strategy).
We want Settlers, Wonders, Temples, Monasteries, Libraries, Forges, Chariots, Triremes, Galleys, archers and another spy

--------------------------
General Strategy
Satisfy all game conditions in shortest time.
Build coastal cities, Contact other AIs asap for GLH commerce = Bulb Astronomy (avoid Code of Laws)
alternatively build Colossus, and bulb Philosophy and Printing Press before Astronomy
Get our continent to ourselves later, for now buddy up to Brennus
Radio or Medicine from Liberalism
Culture and Domination victories
Special Conditions status: 1 of 10
------
Turn 101
Goals: stay out of war w Celts, take barbarian city, steal IW, build more cities, explore more
Beg Archery at Pleased; Steal Mono & IW
Tech: Aesthetics at 0% until library built in Commerce, then 100%; then 0% for Literature (until can research at 100%)
Great Person: Next one expected in 25 turns
Diplomacy: Accept Brennus demands; do not accept Ramesses demands
Cancel trades to Brennus when pleased? Wait until we need the health.
Begging: beg for archery when we Brennus is pleased w us
Espionage: all on Brennus, no slider (unless needed for steal); Spy to Tolosa, wait 5 turns, steal Mono. Rinse & repeat for IW [why did neil suggest Camelodunum? Tolosa is closer and cheaper].
City Builds [we want Settlers, Wonders, Temples, Monasteries, Libraries, Forges, and Units oh my]
Paris: Academy, Library, Forge
GPF: Settlers, switch to warrior(s) as needed to grow; Colossus??
Production: chariot to explore N, settler, Galley/Trireme/Colossus/Parthenon (s)
Commerce: Library (chopped), forge (whipped at 2 unhappies)
Clams: chariot (archers if possible)
Barb City: Granary (chop plains hill), library
East Fish: Workboat (chop GH), Granary (whip), then?
Zhou: 2 pop whip warrior, Granary (overflow and chop); library
Zhou has 2 population now, but assuming 3 archers, we need 6 chariots. There are 3 by Barb City (2 need to heal) and 1 in Fish City. Building chariots in Paris and Clams which can go here. I would like to build a chariot in Production since its last chariot went S to capture the Barb City.
One galley is enough for now for ferrying. Should we build a trireme instead?
Also need 2nd spy (tbr) and triremes and settlers and archers
Where to build Temples? Monasteries?
Micro:
assign cottage to Paris so it can work it rather than ocean

Units:
WB6 explore W as far as possible, then explore northern isles, go N, then SE
WB3 Go South young boat: head to SW to explore those islands
Warrior2 (woody) explore South Continent, Rameses land and look for Brennus stack
Chariots: kill barb on island; wounded units heal; gather on island to take Zhou (need 6) explore unexplored part of peninsula and N of Production
Spy: go to Tolosa wait 5 turns and steal IW, steal mono first iff IW not available
Worker1: cottages for Commerce
Worker2: chop workboat, cottage FPs, mine PH, mine grass hill
Worker 3: chop library for Commerce, cottage Paris grass, later roads on gems and pigs
Worker4: camp Production deer, then?
Worker5 (GPF): camp GPF deer, cottage paris
Workers fromTeoi: chop granary, build roads, pasture pigs, mine PH, cottage over farms
Settlers: new cities: at least two on islands, SW of the of the southern jungle sugar, 1W2S of Barb city's pigs (on the plains hill), and on the desert below "1/3 of a road" are both good ideas. [need to establish order] [reassess after more exploring]
Stop Conditions: Brennus DOW on us (this cancels most of the PPP! Trade for archery from Rameses); meet another AI; need a decision or advice
Pause Conditions: something needs to be discussed
Set duration: 10-15 turns, to a good stopping/handoff point;


Questions
See various alternatives above
What did I forget?
Whip? where for what?
Trade for archery from Rameses for Meditation (or is WFYABTA not worth it –thus the begging) do if beg fails?
(forgot to ask before) What to record/snapshot/save each turn (didn’t save game each turn – sh I copy over the autosaves before starting?

 

[SteelHorse]

PPP Feedback

Beg Archery at Pleased; Steal Mono & IW

IW is obviously a goal of the game. Economics of stealing Mono does not seem right to me given cost and potential loss of spies and diplo.

Aesthetics at 0% until library built in Commerce, then 100%; then 0% for Literature (until can research at 100%)

Unless we are going to build the Parth, just wait until we can research both Aes/Lit at 100%. How many turns to Lib in commerce, is it better to just 1-pop whip (gag), and assign citizens working unimproved tiles to scientist to avoid growth until cottages are built and anger wears off? Is the 1 from forge worth it at this point when unimproved tiles are being worked?

East Fish: Workboat (chop GH), Granary (whip), then?

lib, lh

Worker4: camp Production deer, then?

Does Production need more food? How about cottage commerce?

Where to build Temples? Monasteries?

Temple+monastery in Paris after forge.

Also need 2nd spy (tbr) and triremes and settlers and archers

I would use production and hold on Colossus. I just don't see that many water tiles worked in the next 25-30 turns and it is +1 per tile. If we had 3-4 settlers on boats to islands it might be different. Even then early one would be whipping granary, lh and lib? And point on Caste sooner than Astro implies that the GP farm happy cap gets from 5 to 9 in the near term which is unlikely before Cal and IW. The Salon (observatory replacement) gives both a scientist slot and a GA in addition to the 25% research boost.

 

[Trystero]

350 BC PPP draft turns 101 - ~108

--------------------------
General Strategy
Satisfy all game conditions in shortest time.
Build coastal cities, Contact other AIs asap for GLH commerce = Bulb Astronomy (avoid Code of Laws)
alternatively build Colossus, and bulb Philosophy and Printing Press before Astronomy
Get our continent to ourselves later, for now buddy up to Brennus
Radio or Medicine from Liberalism
Culture and Domination victories
Special Conditions status: 1 of 10

I'm still in favor of beelining/not delaying Astro. I do not object to building Colossus as well, even if it is only to deny it to the AI.

Turn 101
Goals: stay out of war w Celts, take barbarian city, steal IW, build more cities, explore more
Beg Archery at Pleased; Steal Mono & IW
Tech: Aesthetics at 0% until library built in Commerce, then 100%; then 0% for Literature (until can research at 100%)
Great Person: Next one expected in 25 turns
Diplomacy: Accept Brennus demands; do not accept Ramesses demands
Cancel trades to Brennus when pleased? Wait until we need the health.
Begging: beg for archery when we Brennus is pleased w us
Espionage: all on Brennus, no slider (unless needed for steal); Spy to Tolosa, wait 5 turns, steal Mono. Rinse & repeat for IW [why did neil suggest Camelodunum? Tolosa is closer and cheaper].

It is not clear to me why we want to steal Mono before IW. Like SteelHorse, I think we should prioritize stealing the tech we need as a decathlon objective. Am I missing something? We could really use the iron, if we have any. I would feel better if we weren't relying on a military composed of chariots/archers.

City Builds [we want Settlers, Wonders, Temples, Monasteries, Libraries, Forges, and Units oh my]

Sounds good.

At what point do we prepare an army? Maces/catapults? What is the plan if no iron is available in our lands?

Zhou has 2 population now, but assuming 3 archers, we need 6 chariots. There are 3 by Barb City (2 need to heal) and 1 in Fish City. Building chariots in Paris and Clams which can go here. I would like to build a chariot in Production since its last chariot went S to capture the Barb City.

Agreed. Use Production for units.

One galley is enough for now for ferrying. Should we build a trireme instead?

Sounds good. We need one before the barb galleys start pillaging.

Also need 2nd spy (tbr) and triremes and settlers and archers
Where to build Temples? Monasteries?

I'd put a monastery in Paris, at least, and temples wherever we have religion and need the happiness.

Settlers: new cities: at least two on islands, SW of the of the southern jungle sugar, 1W2S of Barb city's pigs (on the plains hill), and on the desert below "1/3 of a road" are both good ideas. [need to establish order] [reassess after more exploring]

Agreed. The Bay of Benginal is/will be great for our GLH economy.

Stop Conditions: Brennus DOW on us (this cancels most of the PPP! Trade for archery from Rameses); meet another AI; need a decision or advice
Pause Conditions: something needs to be discussed
Set duration: 10-15 turns, to a good stopping/handoff point;

Sounds good to me.

Questions
See various alternatives above
What did I forget?
Whip? where for what?
Trade for archery from Rameses for Meditation (or is WFYABTA not worth it –thus the begging) do if beg fails?

I don't think we need to worry about WFYABTA since we are going to (eventually) eliminate both Brennus and Ramesses.

Green from me!

Edit: Re: Humbaba city. Aren't expanding borders a little odd for a barb city?

 

[Trystero]

I'm ok for playing. Even an Irishman can't spread a weekend's drinking out a whole month!
As regards the match it was a draw, but we won the fight

OK - I'll put you back in the rotation. You are on deck after Deckhand.

Edit: Updated roster

• ChrisShaffer - (t0-31) - in the hole
• neilmeister - (t32-57)
• Trystero - (t58-72)
• Revent - (t73-81)
• Benginal - (t82-95) - just played
• SteelHorse - skipped
• vra379971 - currently MIA
• Deckhand - UP!
• Brian Shanahan - on deck

Edit2: SteelHorse: I forgot how long you wanted to be skipped. I could put you up after Brian or Chris, if you want to play before we go through the whole rotation again.

 

[Deckhand]

350 bc ppp draft turns 101 - ~108
updated per steelhorse/trystero feedback. This is ready to go if you all agree. Many builds will be after my turnset

Spoiler :

we want more than we can build immediately. We need to decide priorities and city builds (and big strategy).
We want settlers, wonders, temples, monasteries, libraries, forges, chariots, triremes, galleys, archers and another spy

--------------------------
general strategy
satisfy all game conditions in shortest time.
Build coastal cities, contact other ais asap for glh commerce = bulb astronomy asap (avoid code of laws)

Spoiler :

how do you do strikeout?
alternatively build colossus, and bulb philosophy and printing press before astronomy

get our continent to ourselves later, for now buddy up to brennus
radio or medicine from liberalism
culture and domination victories
special conditions status: 1 of 10
------
turn 101
goals: Stay out of war w celts, take barbarian city, steal iw, build more cities, explore more
beg archery at pleased; steal iw but not mono?
tech: Aesthetics at 0% until can stay at 100% for aes & lit
trade for archery from rameses for meditation
great person: Next one expected in 25 turns
diplomacy: Accept brennus demands; do not accept ramesses demands
cancel trades to brennus when pleased? Wait until we need the health.
begging: Beg for archery when we brennus is pleased w us
espionage: All on brennus, no slider (unless needed for steal); spy to tolosa, wait 5 turns, steal iw

Spoiler :

[why did neil suggest camelodunum? Tolosa is closer and cheaper].

city builds

Spoiler :

[we want settlers, wonders, temples, monasteries, libraries, forges, and units oh my]

paris: Academy, library, forge, monastery, temple
gpf: Settlers, switch to warrior(s) as needed to grow; parthenon
production: Chariot to explore n, chariot, settler (whip), trireme,
commerce: Library (chopped), temple, monastery, forge
clams: Chariot (archers if possible)
barb city: Granary (chop plains hill), library
east fish: Workboat (chop gh), granary (whip), library, lighthouse
zhou: 2 pop whip warrior, granary (overflow and chop); library
zhou has 2 population now, but assuming 3 archers, we need 6 chariots. There are 3 by barb city (2 need to heal) and 1 in fish city. Building chariots in paris and clams which can go here. I would like to build a chariot in production since its last chariot went s to capture the barb city.
One galley is enough for now for ferrying. build a trireme instead

micro:
assign cottage to paris so it can work it rather than ocean

units:
wb6 explore w as far as possible, then explore northern isles, go n, then se
wb3 go south young boat: Head to sw to explore those islands
warrior2 (woody) explore south continent, rameses land and look for brennus stack
chariots: Kill barb on island; wounded units heal; gather on island to take zhou (need 6) explore unexplored part of peninsula and n of production
spy: Go to tolosa wait 5 turns and steal iw, steal mono first iff iw not available
worker1: Cottages for commerce
worker2: Chop workboat, cottage fps, mine ph, mine grass hill
worker 3: Chop library for commerce, cottage paris grass, later roads on gems and pigs
worker4: Camp production deer, cottages (commerce, paris, etc)
worker5 (gpf): Camp gpf deer, cottage paris
workers fromteoi: Chop granary, build roads, pasture pigs, mine ph, cottage over farms
settlers: New cities: At least two on islands, sw of the of the southern jungle sugar, 1w2s of barb city's pigs (on the plains hill), and on the desert below "1/3 of a road" are both good ideas. [need to establish order] [reassess after more exploring]
stop conditions: Brennus dow on us (this cancels most of the ppp! Trade for archery from rameses); meet another ai; need a decision or advice
pause conditions: Something needs to be discussed
set duration: 10-15 turns [total = 5-10 more], to a good stopping/handoff point; maybe zhou captured

Spoiler :

questions
see various alternatives above
what did i forget?
Whip? Where for what?
Trade for archery from rameses for meditation (or is wfyabta not worth it –thus the begging) do if beg fails?
(forgot to ask before) what to record/snapshot/save each turn (didn’t save game each turn – sh i copy over the autosaves before starting?

 

[Brian Shanahan]

Yeah, I was including the benefit of beaker-saving in my thinking as well. Also, trade routes generate commerce rather than gold. Not sure what differences that makes. Nevertheless I will concede your point that the increased commerce for 30 turns doesn't necessarily confer a greater advantage than the gold/food from the settled GM.

The biggest difference between commerce and gold IIRC, is tha commerce gets multipliers from more buildings (harbours etc. as well as markets etc.) than gold (which doesn't get harbour etc. multipliers).

The other bigg difference is that commerce grows simply by growing pop (the base commerce figure is tied into your city's pop and the target city pop), whereas gold has to be worked to grow.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

It's not just the extra 6 commerce per city that is what we will get by Astro. We also need to bear in mind that a city that grows an extra two sizes will give us the same commerce as a GLH TR with Colossus. Island cities will be giving us way more commerce than GLH as well. Also, we get the addition of more great people for bulbing (speeding up our game by the x turns saved), we get bur which is +50% commerce for all commerce in the capital, and 50% production bonus which is crucial in pumping out some more wonders than we would normally not be able to. It is ALSO on the path to Lib which is never a bad thing to be honest. We get to found Taoism which ensures three religions on our continent. Imagine a vassals shrine city flipping over at an inconvenient time on the other continent...That would be trouble. Caste also gets us the opportunity to get a GM quickly so we can found Sushi ASAP.

But the 6 gold from working 2 Colossus sea squares has an opportunity cost associated with it that extra Astro commerce doesn't. The Colossus gold is tile dependant, we have to give up other tiles (which are often better than coast and almost always better than sea squares). No matter what kind of tile placement we have we get the +6 commerce every turn from a Astro powered GLH.

I'm not proposing that we should abandon the Colossus, I'm just pointing out that I don't think the advantages outweigh those of Astro GLH.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

Is this a time warp post? Deckhand is already playing...

Was busy earlier in the week so only saw this yesterday, and posting off my phone (new smart phone), and had trouble deleting the bits I wasn't replying to.

I just wanted to make sure everybody knew I wasn't out of the game.

EDIT TO STOP SPAMMING:

Ammended plan is good. I'd have agreed with Steel Horse on most everything. So Green for the new plan

 

[Revent]

But the 6 gold from working 2 Colossus sea squares has an opportunity cost associated with it that extra Astro commerce doesn't. The Colossus gold is tile dependant, we have to give up other tiles (which are often better than coast and almost always better than sea squares). No matter what kind of tile placement we have we get the +6 commerce every turn from a Astro powered GLH.

I'm not proposing that we should abandon the Colossus, I'm just pointing out that I don't think the advantages outweigh those of Astro GLH.

However, with Monarchy (which AI normally prioritise), the only limiting factor to our city size should be food so it shouldn't be TOO hard to work those tiles. Providing we have one surplus of food in our cities, it can just grow straight onto the water tiles without ever having to sacrifice a better tile over a water tile.

I'm not proposing making a complete delay, but what I am saying is that beelining it doesn't seem like the optimal choice. It may be better to go to Astro after we get CoL, Phil, Edu...etc...