SGOTM 17 - The Shawshank Redemption

[Jastrow]

Note that by settling on Turn 1, instead of on Turn 0, we will lose 1 free Flask. That's not really a big deal, but I figured that I would mention it.

Do we lose one free flask? Can we not revolt to slavery on zero, and then settle one 1, and not lose the flask (I though the flask did not exist during revolt, is that wrong?)

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Note that by settling on Turn 1, instead of on Turn 0, we will lose 1 free Flask. That's not really a big deal, but I figured that I would mention it.

Do we lose one free flask? Can we not revolt to slavery on zero, and then settle one 1, and not lose the flask (I though the flask did not exist during revolt, is that wrong?)

How the game works is that you get 1 free Flask on any turn that you own 1 or more Cities. You will get this free Flask regardless of any existing Anarchy.

So, to earn a free Flask at the end of Turn 0, we must have a City settled on Turn 0. We'll get that free Flask regardless of whether we revolt to Slavery or not.

Given that Classical Era techs already cost hundreds of Flasks each, it's not really even worth worrying about, other than to say that there is a very insignificant cost for delaying our settling by 1 turn. The cost, of course, will be higher for every turn after the first turn that we delay settling, as we'd be losing roughly 2 Food, 2 Hammers, and 9 Commerce, in addition to the free Flask, by delaying settling for each additional turn after the 1st turn of delay.

 

[Mitchum]

I've been thinking about how quickly we can get a settler out and if we go IW first, does it make more sense to time the completion of our first settler with the learning of IW so that we can settle accordingly?

Can we agree on where to move the scout and archer on T0 now so that when we get the save we can make the moves? I'm not sure that fog gazing would impact these moves...

 

[Jastrow]

Yeah, the single flask is obviously neglegible. I was just curious how it worked.

On another topic... Oracle is of course disabled, but bulbing paths can already be considered...

Great Scientist:

Writing -We have
Mathematics -Will get early
Scientific Method -Late, irrelevant
Physics - Lare, irrelevant
Education - Option, if we need to go deep in tree.
Printing Press - rarely sensible to bulb.
Fiber Optics - irrelevant
Computers - irrelevant
Laser (BTS) - irrelevant
The Wheel - Have
Alphabet (BTS) - Probably want early
Philosophy - ??? needs meditation!
Chemistry - I cant imagine bulbing this.
Fission - irrelevant
Fusion - irrelevant
Optics - ??
Paper -?? Needs CS
Astronomy -?? Will astro be strong this game

This last question is one we cannot answer yet, but should think about as soon as we have enough info. The point is that since KDswede was nice enough to remove meditation, as long as we avoid CS (right now, I am not seeing a brilliant beuracracy capital), then we could bulb the optics/astro path very quickly. Of course, if the map is all land, this is not good play...

 

[ingentingg]

I've been thinking about how quickly we can get a settler out and if we go IW first, does it make more sense to time the completion of our first settler with the learning of IW so that we can settle accordingly?

Can we agree on where to move the scout and archer on T0 now so that when we get the save we can make the moves? I'm not sure that fog gazing would impact these moves...

At least you, me and Jastrow want to move archer SW and scout 2N2W. No, I don't think fog gazing will make want to move them differently.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Moving the Scout 1-movement-point at a time?

At least you, me and Jastrow want to move archer SW and scout 2N2W. No, I don't think fog gazing will make want to move them differently.

I would be okay with moving the Archer 1SW Grassland (1S of the western Lake) and the Scout 1NW Grassland (1NW of the western G Banana).

Could it be useful to pause play at that point just to see if there might be a reason for moving the Scout 1NE GFor with its second movement point?


Does the fact that the Worker seems to be standing on top of the only Plains square for miles seem suspicious, as though it might contain Iron? At least it would be in our big fat cross by settling on the western G Banana.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Initial Capital Build Order

I've been thinking about how quickly we can get a settler out and if we go IW first, does it make more sense to time the completion of our first settler with the learning of IW so that we can settle accordingly?

You would be delaying the first Settler to get built (Settler 2) for quite a long time that way. Why can't a third City be settled by Iron?

The are other nice things to build in the capital...
i. Military Units for the Barbs or for messing with the AIs
ii. A Granary to give us more Hammers
iii. A Lighthouse to give us more Commerce and +1 Food (working a 3F + 2C Lake instead of a 3F G Farm is essentially adding Commerce, not Food)
iv. A Work Boat can give us more Food

As I said earlier, it would be nice to play out a few games until we have built something like 3 Settlers out of our capital, to give us a feel for whether or not any of these other build items would have a positive effect on our empire by that stage of the game.


Some promising starts are:
a) Settler right away with 2 Forest Chops but not being in Slavery and the Settler being completed on Turn 8
b) Growth to Size 2, 2 Forest Chops, and 1 whipping action with us being in Slavery and the Settler being completed on Turn 12 plus a Work Boat on Turn 13
c) A Chopped + whipped Granary and a Chopped Work Boat early on... I forget the results
d) ingentingg was aggressively Chopping 3 Forests by Chopping out a Work Boat and then Chopping (+ perhaps whipping) a Settler
e) ingentingg was getting an early Granary (plus probably an early Work Boat) and 2-pop-whipping a Settler at City Size 4

 

[Jastrow]

Moving the Scout 1-movement-point at a time?
Could it be useful to pause play at that point just to see if there might be a reason for moving the Scout 1NE GFor with its second movement point?

I would have nothing against this.

Does the fact that the Worker seems to be standing on top of the only Plains square for miles seem suspicious, as though it might contain Iron? At least it would be in our big fat cross by settling on the western G Banana.

Slighlty suspicious yes, but frankly the entire starting area feels artificial and suspicious to me. I would not dare guess any specific meaning to it, and certainly not guess it means Fe.

 

[Jastrow]

Initial Capital Build Order
The are other nice things to build in the capital...
i. Military Units for the Barbs or for messing with the AIs
ii. A Granary to give us more Hammers
iii. A Lighthouse to give us more Commerce and +1 Food (working a 3F + 2C Lake instead of a 3F G Farm is essentially adding Commerce, not Food)
iv. A Work Boat can give us more Food

I dont think much of the LH to be honest. I just dont think it will pay back in a reasonable amount of time given the limited number of water tiles we would use. I see us building an early granary, as well as settler. WB needs testing, but my guess is we need one as well.

How long can we hold of on a millitary unit? With the scout and archer for escorts, we can probably deal with the animals. When does the first human barb appear, and perhaps more importantly, when do they start entering borders?

 

[chopster]

At least you, me and Jastrow want to move archer SW and scout 2N2W. No, I don't think fog gazing will make want to move them differently.

I also agree on these initial moves, and would be happy to start with 1NW for the scout to "revisit" his second move depending on what is revealed.

 

[LowtherCastle]

1. It is not sensible to make any deep plans. There is obviously a catch in this scenario, and we have no idea what it could be. For example, oceans needing astronomy, and perhaps fort canals, to get to most AI, highly fortified barbarian pinch points blocking access to neighbors, the need for paratroopers to get to a last AI, the list is virtually endless. Until we have some idea what it is, the best we can do is come up with a short term, multi-purpose, plan.

To me this is the key facet of this SG and thus prioritizes exploration. Our multi-purpose plan needs to explore, research, REX and build more explorers. I see two basic possibilities: Settling in a much better site to the northwest and settling asap on the coast. We know the banana site gives us fairly rapid IW. The other site might be much better for the long term. So our initial priority is to see if there's a better site nearby.

If we decide to settle on the coast, then the quick second city gives us a second production site to build more explorers, if needed, so we can know asap what time it is.

===

The benefit of settling on the bananas, imo, is that we work primarily commerce tiles and improve the mine at most. The worker just chops (/mines) and then goes to City #2. In that case we would have four chops for a settler and granary+wb, then whip the lighthouse, which gives us +3fpt at pop3. Then our capital has a fair amount of food and commerce, relatively speaking.

An early City #2 should have a quick granary wiith a chop and then it can also start producing settlers or anything else.

===

I think we should plan on 1 move at a time at the very beginning, perhaps the scout. Each move should be followed by consideration.

 

[Mitchum]

We discussed that it may not make sense to settle on the bananas until we've checked out the SE. Otherwise, settling on the bananas would pretty much prevent us from getting anything in the fog to the east. Of course, we can always take a calculated gamble and settle on the bananas without checking there first, but there is a risk involved. EDIT: Sure, our capital's borders will enclose it soon enough so we'd have access to the resource, but we wouldn't be able to work the tile with our citizens.

Some promising starts are:
a) Settler right away with 2 Forest Chops but not being in Slavery and the Settler being completed on Turn 8
b) Growth to Size 2, 2 Forest Chops, and 1 whipping action with us being in Slavery and the Settler being completed on Turn 12 plus a Work Boat on Turn 13
c) A Chopped + whipped Granary and a Chopped Work Boat early on... I forget the results
d) ingentingg was aggressively Chopping 3 Forests by Chopping out a Work Boat and then Chopping (+ perhaps whipping) a Settler
e) ingentingg was getting an early Granary (plus probably an early Work Boat) and 2-pop-whipping a Settler at City Size 4

Regarding an uber fast settler (i.e. settler first and max chopping), it leaves our capital undeveloped and one worker to be split between two cities. So, on the surface, I'm not sure it makes sense to go this route (i.e. options a or b). Would it make more sense to take a more balanced approach where we get at least two improvements (i.e. farm, mine or fishing nets) so that our citizens can be productive while our worker is busy at city #2? Doing this also gives us more time to scout for the optimal city location. Cranking out a settler on T8 leaves poor Joe with too many improvements to make and too little time...

Regarding a LH, the coast may be the only commerce tiles our capital is able to work. I can't see laying down cottages on non-river grassland. So, if we end up settling on the coast, a LH will make sense at some point.

Regarding military units, they serve two purposes. First, to keep our cities and settlers safe. Second, and possibly more important, is to explore the map and meet the AI. So, I don't think we can afford to delay building military units for too long in favor of all out REX.

Regarding barbs (from ZPV in our social group):

1. Barb animals will appear on T6
2. Human barbs will appear when there are 11 non-barb cities. That'll happen at around turn 25.
3. Human barbs will start to enter our cultural borders when there are 22 non-barb cities. That will happen around turn 40 or 45.
4. It will be more expensive than usual to deal with the barbs, because they start with stronger units (but at least not horse archers as in medieval+).

Regarding the GS bulbing preferences, it was discussed in our social group that unless we need Astronomy, it may be better to get GEs to bulb the Engineering path.

 

[Jastrow]

We discussed that it may not make sense to settle on the bananas until we've checked out the SE. Otherwise, settling on the bananas would pretty much prevent us from getting anything in the fog to the east. Of course, we can always take a calculated gamble and settle on the bananas without checking there first, but there is a risk involved. EDIT: Sure, our capital's borders will enclose it soon enough so we'd have access to the resource, but we wouldn't be able to work the tile with our citizens.

I dont have a big problem with taking that risk, but if our main plan is to likely settle on the bananas (at least after we move archer SW and scout NW-NW, and dont see anything better), and assuming we revolt to slavery on turn zero, then we can move the settler SE and back to where he started on turn zero. Then we move on the banana and settle on turn 1. This does not cost us any turns at all (we can even start pre-choping the forrest on turn 1, if that is our plan.)

Cranking out a settler on T8 leaves poor Joe with too many improvements to make and too little time...

I tend to agree... I am more tempted to time the settler for knowing where the Fe is, IF we do decide to go IW first (tho I might still prefer math first.)

So, if we end up settling on the coast, a LH will make sense at some point.

Agreed, but not before at least 1WB, Granary, and 1 settler.

3. Human barbs will start to enter our cultural borders when there are 22 non-barb cities. That will happen around turn 40 or 45.

Out of curiosity, why 22? 3x7+1, where 7 is the number of players, or something else??

4. It will be more expensive than usual to deal with the barbs, because they start with stronger units (but at least not horse archers as in medieval+).

To some extent, but fog busting works the same against warrier or mech infantry.

Regarding the GS bulbing preferences, it was discussed in our social group that unless we need Astronomy, it may be better to get GEs to bulb the Engineering path.

Agreed, it is too eary to know... However, if we are seperated from most AI by ocean, then I think Astro would be the strongest bulb path.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Test Games

Regarding an uber fast settler (i.e. settler first and max chopping), it leaves our capital undeveloped and one worker to be split between two cities. So, on the surface, I'm not sure it makes sense to go this route (i.e. options a or b). Would it make more sense to take a more balanced approach where we get at least two improvements (i.e. farm, mine or fishing nets) so that our citizens can be productive while our worker is busy at city #2?

Basically, until we do some serious testing out to a certain point (I suggested the point where the capital builds 3 Settlers and then we'll have to make a value-based judgement on when those Settlers get produced versus how much we feel that those new Cities will contribute), we can't really know. It's time to set conjecture aside and start testing.

I dont have a big problem with taking that risk, but if our main plan is to likely settle on the bananas (at least after we move archer SW and scout NW-NW, and dont see anything better), and assuming we revolt to slavery on turn zero, then we can move the settler SE and back to where he started on turn zero. Then we move on the banana and settle on turn 1. This does not cost us any turns at all (we can even start pre-choping the forrest on turn 1, if that is our plan.)

Unless we're seriously going to entertain the idea of wandering for a few turns to the west or north-west, we essentially have two settling choices: in place or 1W on the G Banana.

To know whether we're going to send the Worker, the Settler, or neither to explore to the south-east will require us to first choose a preferred "settle on the G Banana" approach. Only then can we actually be sure that either of those units are free for exploration and which one, if either of them. Different possible openings will currently need one or both units to move in a certain direction. Until we can decide a preferred choice for "what to do if we settle our capital on the G Banana," it is premature to even suggest which unit, if either, would explore to the south-east. So, it's testing time.

If your concern is that "well, what if a Strategic Resource appears to the south-east," then go ahead and World-Build-in your choice of Copper or Horse and see how settling to get that Resource plays out against settling on top of the Banana.

One nice part about settling in place is that we could Farm the western G Banana (but we couldn't farm the eastern one) to be a 4-Food square, which would earn us the same amount of Food as if we were to settle on top of the Banana and work a G Farm square.

Downsides of settling in place are: additional Maintenance Costs for our extra Cities, not having +1 Lake becoming an Oasis after we complete our Lighthouse, and only having Strategic Resources as potential sources of Hammers (since we would not get access to the GHFor square for our capital by settling in place).


We can't easily test "what would a good opening be for a capital settled to the north-west in an area where we don't know what Resources are available," but we CAN test "what would be our preferred Settle-on-the-western-G-Banana opening" and we CAN test "what would be our preferring Settle-in-place-if-there-is-Copper*-to-the-east opening."

* Let's say Copper just so that any testing done will be consistent across players.


ZPV has also provided some other test games where you don't have a similar opening. These test games can help to simulate starts where we explore for a couple of turns and get a different starting area. It is arguable that these test games are better suited for playing the game out for a while.


As I suggested, the ideal thing for us to do would be to have everyone play out at least one test game until at least one AI has been eliminated. There are a lot of lessons that can be learned that way. Until we actually put some time in to do so, we're not really going to be equipped to talk competently about any sort of a longer-term plan... that is, unless someone on the team has extensive experience with Classical Era starts, in which case you could get an exemption.


So, there are two types of testing on the table here... micro-managing the start to produce 3 Settlers, regardless of whether you settle the Cities or not... and more of a macro-level of testing where you take a saved game to a point where you've eliminated an AI (without using the World Builder to help you out). Pick your poison and get to work if you want to be able to speak competently enough about this game to be worthy of achieving a Golden Laurel*.

* If that's not your goal, then it can be said that a game will be a lot more fun if we are able to make solid strategic decisions that will make the game a lot easier to win, which will be a lot more fun than making a bunch of bad choices that back us into a corner where the game drags out unnecessarily. So, be it victory or fun, whatever your motivation, it's time to put your value to the test and start playing some games of Civ 4!

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Some lessons learned from testing:
- Without a Military Police unit, we'll be unhappy at Size 3 in our capital after having whipped twice (+5 base happiness in the capital thanks to +1 from the Palace and +4 per City, -1 at Size 3 with no Military Police Unit, -3 for Size 3, -2 for whipping... -6 is greater than +5)
- Settling away from a Lake or River near the start of the game is very painful, especially if you settle a Jungle City
- While it would be nice to have a stronger capital than what we see already, getting out fast Settlers can help to make up for that fact
- Abusing Open Borders with an AI to find its Worker or Workers is quite effective
- By the time that we're ready to steal a Worker, an AI is likely to have 2 Cities with multiple Archer units around
- When you're not sure what to build in a City, build Military Units
- A Hills square is a perfect square from while to steal a Worker because you can spot that square from two squares away and using the "complete the Road underneath of your Archer tactic" works quite well for stealing follow-up Workers... plus, you then get to defend the captured Worker from a Hills square, meaning that an AI Archer is far less likely to counter-attack you than if you were to steal successive Workers from a Resource square on flat land

Spoiler :

- Even if you don't have a Hills square, you can use a Worker to scout a square that you expect an AI to send a Worker to; an AI will gladly send its Worker to a square adjacent to your Worker
- If you can't find a square that an AI wants to improve, set one up by going and pillaging a Resource square or a Mine (preferably on a Hills square)
- I saw a Barb Axe on T32
- A captured Worker is easily lost to the Barbs
- Our Scout loses its effectiveness outside of the roles of being a spawn-buster or staying within an AI's Cultural Borders very early in the game (it's very easy to instantly die in the wilderness and thus he probably makes for a better spawn-buster than a scouting unit)
- Expect Barb Cities to appear with 4 Barb Archer defenders if we don't spawn-bust well fog-bust the squares likely to receive Barb Cities
- As long as we meet a couple of AIs, Iron Working is pretty easy to get in trade for Alphabet
- An AI might choose to go for Alphabet as their second tech, but not many did, so waiting to get it in trade could have you waiting for a very long time
- If we focus on spamming Settlers and Military Units, with the odd Granary/Work Boat/whatever thrown in, we can aim to get a bit of an Archer chain set up between us and the nearest AI; obviously, if we're isolated, we won't be easily stealing Workers... unless... we later build a Galley... and then Workers become easy pickings from the seas
- If we go for Code of Laws and at least one AI goes for Alphabet, while we won't get Alphabet easily in trade, we'd get a Religion for Happiness and we wouldn't care too much about angering the other AIs (because you wouldn't really be trading with them much, duh); we'd also unlock our Unique Building quite early on, which could be very powerful because:
i. Commerce is hard to come by and Maintenance Costs rise quickly, but dropping Maintenance Costs in a City by 75% early on has a bit impact
ii. Confucianism lets us have a State Religion for +1 Happiness (+1 free whipping action... which can help a lot by allowing you to have a minimal Military Police force)
iii. Our Unique Building gives us EPPs (Espionage Party Points)
iv. We can use Code of Laws to likely get Iron Working + Polytheism in trade from the AI that grabs Alphabet
v. Confucianism gives us a free Missionary for converting a nearby AI to our Religion (spread it to their capital and they'll likely stick with our State Religion)
- If there is a Strategic Resource to the south-east, it will take a LONG time to connect it (assuming that we settle 1W on the G Banana); that fact doesn't matter TOO much except that 2-pop-whipping Axemen is better than 1-pop-whipping a Warrior (unless you want 2 Warriors) or 1-pop-whipping an Archer
- It is really hard to get Cities up and running without Workers; if we do not prioritise finding a safe way home with our stolen Workers or if we are isolated, we'll need to remember to squeeze out some early self-built Workers

 

[Jastrow]

- Expect there to be Barb Cities to appear with 4 Barb Archer defenders if we don't spawn-bust well

Note, you cannot spawn bust barb cities, you can only fog-bust them. Barb cities CAN spawn in any square where you dont have visibility, even if it is spawn-busted against individual barbs.

- As long as we meet a couple of AIs, Iron Working is pretty easy to get in trade for Alphabet

Assuming they are not Toku... My point being that we should be very careful about assuming test-game conclusions relating to other AI are applicable to the game. The map maker is going to have done several evil things in thi scenario.

- If we go for Code of Laws... Religion + we'd also unlock our Unique Building quite early on, which could be very powerful

I agree. I think CoL is a pretty high priority mid-range goal.

- It is really hard to get Cities up and running without Workers; if we do not prioritise finding a safe way home with our stolen Workers or if we are isolated, we'll need to remember to squeeze out some early self-built Workers

I think it is very likely that we need to build at least one more worker. I dont suspect we will be able to steal a worker in time (if at all) for when we need worker #2. Worker #3 might come from a steal, if we are really lucky.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Happiness
Is it important? My testing to date shows that it is.

It would be nice to get some early Happiness... especially if we settle on top of the western G Banana. With early access to Granaries, I found myself whipping a lot.

Unfortunately, in the test game that I chose, only Buddhism and Confucianism seemed to get founded, even though at the end of my playing session I checked the F6 screen via the World Builder (which allows you to see which techs every AI has) and I noticed that one AI had Meditation, Polytheism, and Monotheism, while another AI had Meditation and Code of Laws. So, I'm not sure why 4 Religions weren't founded, but there must be something wrong with that particular test game (the "no hammers" test).

Anyway, the point is that I'd like to see us prioritizing Happiness early on in the game, especially if we settle on the G Banana.

That may mean:
1. Early Iron Working if we see a nearby G Jungle Gem square
2. Early Code of Laws for a State Religion (which also gives us the benefit of a free Missionary to convert a neighbour of choice to get them up to Friendly status for better tech trading and also can help to expand our Cultural Borders, which became an issue during testing, with us not being Creative like last game. A State Religion also can be quite powerful with all of the early Buildings that we'll unlock--Organized Religion can save you a bundle on Hammers and we already identified that Hammers are likely to be one of our bottlenecks for this game--Polytheism and possibly Monotheism should be pretty easy to get in trade if a neighbour co-operates and techs Alphabet for us)
3. Early Monarchy (possibly leading to Feudalism for early Protective Longbowmen?--certainly, a pair of Longbowmen will play complete havoc with any AI that we are able to reach via land or Galley... cut off all Strategic Resources, possibly steal Workers, possibly heavily pillage, etc)
4. Iron Working + Math + Calendar for connecting-up Jungle-covered Calendar-based Resources (this approach will take too long, in my opinion)... Iron Working might be able to be skipped if there aren't a lot of nearby Jungle squares, although Jungle growth might still mess us up
5. Metal Casting if we see a Gold/Gem/Silver Resource nearby which is not covered by Jungle
6. Can you think of any others?

Hopefully, after moving the Scout and Archer 6 times, we'll have a clear enough picture to help us decide.

But, with such early access to Granaries, it feels like the right play to emphasize early Happiness to get our empire rolling right from the start, even if doing so means delaying getting Great Engineers, Military-oriented techs, or other medium term goals that we might have, as a productive Happy empire will be able to help us achieve those other goals all that much better.

 

[Mitchum]

@ Dhoom

So are you suggesting that we might pick CoL as our first tech? That seems like a risk since it will take us a long time to research it (35+ turns) which would be a long time to live without IW...

 

[Mitchum]

I just played a test game. I want IW -> CoL and was beat to Confucianism by 17 turns... If we're set on an early religion, we'd have to research CoL right out of the gate, which seems a bit risky.

By T58 I've only met one AI. I stole a worker with my archer and the archer walked the worker all the way back, encountering barb archers and axes along the way. Worker stealing, if a rainforest map, is going to be challenging. It may be better to use the archer to continue exploring and meeting AI rather than escorting slaves back home...

The saves come out tomorrow. Who's up first and do we have an agreed first move? Archer SW?

 

[Jastrow]

I am not sure if he is suggesting it, but I am suggesting something even more extreme... I am suggesting we shoudl seriously consider Math-Currency-COL.

This of course will all depend on what the first 5 turns of scouting show, and if we think we can suvive that long without Fe. For example, Cu existing at a good place for city two would offer sufficient protection.