SGOTM 17 - The Shawshank Redemption

[ingentingg]

Some general thoughts after thinking about this game for a while...

1. It is not sensible to make any deep plans. There is obviously a catch in this scenario, and we have no idea what it could be. For example, oceans needing astronomy, and perhaps fort canals, to get to most AI, highly fortified barbarian pinch points blocking access to neighbors, the need for paratroopers to get to a last AI, the list is virtually endless. Until we have some idea what it is, the best we can do is come up with a short term, multi-purpose, plan.

2. I think we have a free turn of exploration? I assume that we will be revolting to slavery fairly soon in any event. I have not tested this, but assuming we can do so before founding a city, we may as well do so, since it is a turn we lose eventually anyway. That way, we get a free turn of exploration.



3. When we meet an AI, they often tell us what units of theirs we should fear. What exactly does this mean? Is it the best unit they already have, of the best they can build? If the later, is this a way to tell immediately on meeting a new AI, if they have BW or Horses nearby/hooked-up?

4. I don’t like alpha first…. If we do that, what do we expect to be able to trade for? I assume that the AI will mostly go for the religious techs first, and their research will not be very fast in this part of the tree. IW is the ONLY tech that I can imagine us getting in a trade for quite some time. If we wanted that, I would rather research it directly.

5. I think we should consider Math first. Of course, we can wait a few turns before having to decide, and if we see a ton of Jungle, especially something like jungle/gem, then this would make IW a pretty obvious choice… If however, after 4 turns, there is no clear reason to take IW, then math seems to be the safest choice, as we “know” for sure we want this, and it would increase chopping output nicely.

6. Remember that our imperial bonus only applies to hammers, so we want to be using mines or whips/chops to produce our settlers. With that in mind, what should we build first? I was contemplating settler first (depending on what the first turn of scouting shows), but I don’t see how we do that efficiently. What else do we need?

1. I agree.

2. Yes I think we all agree that we want to revolt into slavery. The only exception would be if we are to build a settler immediately. Then it makes most sense to revolt after completion, but before we settle the second city.

3. Don't know

4/5. I agree. Let's wait and see after 5 turns. I don't want alpha first, and I think I'm leaning towards iron working if we don't find bronze, or if there is a lot of jungle nearby.

6. We also get the bonus when we whip. Meaning that we get 45 hammers into the settler for each pop we whip. So it's only when we are working the grassland mine that there is any point in building the settler.
I think our main tool for production will be whipping.

 

[Jastrow]

On 2,

Even IF we build a settler first, my point is that unless we found a city on turn 0 (I thought most of you wanted to explore first), then if we revolt on turn 0, we get that exploration free. Even then, there is no point (tho in that case no loss either) of waiting until we have a settler.

 

[chopster]

I agree that alphabet first is a serious gamble without having met multiple AI.
There's a chance we even got multi toku-ed like a previous SGOTM which would nerf it further.

I was in the math first camp to get the most value from our forests, but IW first makes a lot of sense.

I could be convinced to go back to math if our exploration of the south east revealed copper or horses.

Having heard all the arguments, and particularly considering the potential for the game to be very different than we first anticipate, I am firmly in favour of IW as it stands as it appears to be the most versatile opening - even if it turns out not to be the perfect choice it has almost no way to be a bad choice.

 

[ingentingg]

Health bars
Edit: I don't know if anyone have mentioned, but from the length of the health bar of the archer, there might be some advanced units in the game. The lenght is scaled by the most advanced unit, but if you add a unit in world builder, and then later remove it, the health bars are not reset. So kcd could have done it to play with our minds.
If he have added units to the AI, we will know for certain when we get the save.

Demographics screen
Here are some questions to those who read the demographics screen fluently.

Here is what I know we can do.
1. Figure out if certain AIs are in the game from the unit count. (Unless KCD has made any changes)
2. Get a very long list of possible AIs from health/happiness and soldiers. After 3 turns we know if there are any creative civs
3. Know how many AIs that start with oceans/lakes within their culture borders.
4. We will probably spot it if kcd have done anything spectacular. (He have added some superunits)

Except for whatever falls under point 4, I don't think anything we will see in point 1-3 affects our first turns, since we won't try for a religion.

Fog gazing
5. From fogbusting we will "see" more tiles. From the picture can see jungles, forests grassland and ocean, but it is possible to see hills by fog gazing in the real save, and that could be very helpful.

Question
Is it possible to get any information about the type of map, except of what we already know on turn 0? Is it possible to fog-gaze any resources?

 

[ingentingg]

Question about opening

Things I think we all agree on, but please say so if you have another opinion.

1. We will not try to get an early religion.
2. Our tech choice probably stands between iron Working, mathematics and alphabet. But since we don't have to pick one before turn 5, we will wait till then.
3. We will revolt to slavery on turn 0, and thus have 1 free turn to scout with our units.

Main unresolved issue
4. Do we scout the SE corner on turn 0. I vote NO.

 

[Jastrow]

Health: I am GUESSING there is no unit added to the AI, but I am almost expecting a strong barb pinch-point blockade somewhere. In either case, I doubt he would have added a unit and then removed him, since that seems not only evil, but a bit underhanded.

Demo: I dont think I would trust a soldiers analisis, as despite what I said above, the mapmaker could easily have tweaked those the defenders... As you say, I think the only thing of use to learn is if there was any "spectacular" tampering.

Gazing: I am horrible at fog gazing... I have no idea.

Map: At turn zero, we can determine the exact number of land squares, and get a good approximation as to how much food is available. However, since this map can be heavily modified, I dont think this information will give us much evidence of the original map script.

Opening:
-No religion, I agree.
-Between Math and IW for me, agreed to wait until turn 5 (do we know if we have to pick on turn 5, or 6... I.e. do we know exactly when the governer autopicks.)
-Agree to revolt on 0. I cannot think of any counter argument.

Scouting: Again, this comes with the caveat that I cannot fog gaze, but... I would go:
Archer: SW
Scout: NW-NW
Worker/Settler: Decide after the above two move.

 

[ingentingg]

Health bars
I don't know if anyone have mentioned, but from the length of the health bar of the archer, there might be some advanced units in the game. The lenght is scaled by the most advanced unit, but if you add a unit in world builder, and then later remove it, the health bars are not reset. So kcd could have done it to play with our minds.
If he have added units to the AI, we will know for certain when we get the save.

I just realized that it's not the health bar that is showing in the picture. That's way nobody has mentioned it of course. We can look at the health bar when we open the save, but not before. Sorry about the misinformation.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Quarter of the Map?

lol kcd. My theory is that "quartermaster" is a devious pun.

What, something like we're isolated in one quadrant of the map and each other quadrant gets 2 AIs?

Or, we have Shaka, Monte, and Napoleon in our quadrant and each other AI gets its own quadrant on the map?


When a Strategic Resource gets connected, an AI will start bragging

3. When we meet an AI, they often tell us what units of theirs we should fear. What exactly does this mean? Is it the best unit they already have, of the best they can build? If the later, is this a way to tell immediately on meeting a new AI, if they have BW or Horses nearby/hooked-up?

@ Mitchum: I did some testing to answer this question.

So, it seems that as soon as the AI obtains the Resource, they will brag about being able to build Military Units related to that Resource.

On a related note, if you give Iron Working to Monte via the World Builder, he will claim that he has Jaguars, so it's not just bragging for Resource-requiring units but also for Resourceless units.

One other oddity was that in a test game where I'd messed around with it a lot and had some pretty advanced techs (I also had some Marines that I'd World Built in for myself), no AI was willing to brag about their Swordsmen/Chariots/etc.


Monarchy for Hereditary Rule?

@everyone:
We need to find some way to build units. That, a little more than science, looks like the sticking point. Whipping will only go so far if we have no happiness.

Whipping Military Units does go pretty far with Hereditary Rule.

6. Remember that our imperial bonus only applies to hammers, so we want to be using mines or whips/chops to produce our settlers.

That's a fair point. Technically, we only need one Settler pumping City if we also have Hereditary Rule... infinite whipping of Settlers, while other Cities could help with producing Military Units to guarrison said infinite-whipping City.

If we can find a City location that has a decent amount of Food, we plop down a Granary and just keep whipping Settlers like there is no tomorrow, garrisoning the City to allow it to almost continuously grow without worrying about Happiness issues. Once we've stacked up massive amounts of Unhappiness, we can "abandon" the City and send our stack of troops out against an AI... other nearby Cities could even steal the Food Resources from this City, as it would have served its purpose.


Extra Info about the Map

Is it possible to get any information about the type of map, except of what we already know on turn 0?

I suppose that we might be able to see the world wrap type, the sea level height, etc, depending upon what type of base map was used. Of course, those values would only be the ones set initially by the map script.

Is it possible to fog-gaze any resources?

It is possible to fog-gaze for Flood Plains but I've never been successful in fog-gazing for Resources. If we can get a map of the same dimensions and figure out our exact latitude and longitude co-ordinates, it may be theoretically possible to spot the edge of a Corn Resource, but that's just conjecture and I've never been able to do so.


Tricky Map-maker

Health: I am GUESSING there is no unit added to the AI, but I am almost expecting a strong barb pinch-point blockade somewhere. In either case, I doubt he would have added a unit and then removed him, since that seems not only evil, but a bit underhanded.

Not to be a fear-mongeror, but after kcd_swede hid Hammurabi's normally-higher power rating last game, I would at least put him under the "sometimes devious" although not really "evil" category.


Game Turn 5 (the 6th turn) is when we need to select our tech

-Between Math and IW for me, agreed to wait until turn 5 (do we know if we have to pick on turn 5, or 6... I.e. do we know exactly when the governer autopicks.)

@Mitchum: Testing shows that with the initial turn set to being Turn 0 (the BUFFY default value), on Turn 5 we will have to pick a tech. As of the start of Turn 6, all of our excess Flasks got dumped into Iron Working whether I settled on Turn 0 or settled on Turn 1 (in both test runs I did not revolt into Slavery).

So, we must pick on Turn 5, the 6th turn of the game (i.e. we can have up to 6 turns of exploration with our Scout and with our Archer before needing to decide on a tech... although we'll have to be careful not to advance the turn after moving our units, since our Settler will have been settled and our Worker might be busy and thus a quick Enter or Spacebar keypress when the game says "Press <Enter> to end turn..." could auto-select Iron Working on our behalf.


BtS & BUFFY Settings
That reminds me, someone (I guess me, if no one volunteers) will have to look at the BtS Options and BUFFY Options and figure out which ones should be set or unset. For example, we don't want to have Workers automated from the time that they get built.

 

[chopster]

I don't know if this makes any difference to fog gazing for you guys (I'm an amateur at best), but my PC will happily take screenshots to post in high detail at 1920*1200 if the extra detail and zoom helps at all.

 

[chopster]

So I am perfectly clear, being new to the team, do we have any specific "team rules" (or guidelines)?

I want to be sure I'm on the same page as everyone else on a few items.

Things like cancelling all units actions at the end of every turn?
Manual save every turn?
When to and when not to play? (I'm thinking of something like Murky Waters style rules here)
Anything else we feel the need to document so we're all doing the same thing.

From prevous lurking I know ZPV and LC can work out all kinds from previous saves so I think manual saves every turn could/would be useful.

 

[kcd_swede]

Spoiler :

Not to be a fear-mongeror, but after kcd_swede hid Hammurabi's normally-higher power rating last game, I would at least put him under the "sometimes devious" although not really "evil" category.

Read my sig, buddy.

Would several years of cultivating an image of "not really evil" only to lull you into a false sense of security in order to go down in history as the first (and probably last) mapmaker to get a complete shutout in an sgotm be evil enough for you?

Oh, I'm just joking of course... messing with your minds is my job.

 

[ZPV]

If you're going for the shutout

Spoiler :

Can you make some deity saves so that when we win the game, we can replay it on deity and win again?

 

[LowtherCastle]

lol kcd. My theory is that "quartermaster" is a devious pun.

Good thinking. I was trying to make something of that, and this...

In this game, you will play as the Quartermaster, and like all quartermasters he thinks he's a king of his own holy empire.

===

I haven't seen too many tests done, but my gut feeling is still that settler first is optimal. Like everything else, too soon to decide, but if so, then I was thinking that teh best way to "escort" the built settler might be to simply use the scout to scout a wide perimeter in the first 8 turns for the best settling location and fogbust the chosen site. Only then wander off exploring.

Meanwhile, the archer beelines NW or wherever, looking for a pair of slaves to steal. I don't care if we have to escort slaves back. We want as many as possible, unless we decide to choke that AI for his juicy GloryLand.

The sooner we have multiple cities, the sooner we can build units for various reasons.

===

The REAL SAVEs are also useful for determining when and if there are any barb cities and how many cities there are worldwide, their populations, and how many cities each AI has. That also tells us when human barbs will spawn, their cities will spawn, and when they'll start entering our borders to attack our cities.

===

Unit spamming might simply require X cities, with each city producing about 100h every 10 turns.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Not so much Evil as Deviously Caring

Would several years of cultivating an image of "not really evil" only to lull you into a false sense of security in order to go down in history as the first (and probably last) mapmaker to get a complete shutout in an sgotm be evil enough for you?

I expect that your guilt about the original Humbaba will help to stay your hand. Besides, even then, it wasn't a complete shutout.

Humbaba got so badly nerfed last game that he was more of a joke than anything.

Wait, since the saved games aren't out yet, maybe I shouldn't be opening my big mouth thus...

Oh, I'm just joking of course... messing with your minds is my job.

Is that behaviour really part of your job description or is it more of a way to make the job more enjoyable?


Team Rules

So I am perfectly clear, being new to the team, do we have any specific "team rules" (or guidelines)?

I want to be sure I'm on the same page as everyone else on a few items.

Things like cancelling all units actions at the end of every turn?
Manual save every turn?
When to and when not to play? (I'm thinking of something like Murky Waters style rules here)
Anything else we feel the need to document so we're all doing the same thing.

From prevous lurking I know ZPV and LC can work out all kinds from previous saves so I think manual saves every turn could/would be useful.

So far, we've kept things pretty light on the rules/guidelines front, but some of the points that you raise seem like they are practices that we have been trying to implicitly follow, so I'll start a list of team guidelines based on your suggestions.

Anyone can feel free to help expand this list (with additional ideas) or alter this list (if you feel that something which I added to the list needs tweaking).


Settler First

I haven't seen too many tests done, but my gut feeling is still that settler first is optimal.

Just to be clear, do you mean building a Settler from the turn that we settle our first City? Or, is there leeway for building a Granary and/or possibly a Work Boat in there first?


Scouting versus Spawn-busting

Meanwhile, the archer beelines NW or wherever, looking for a pair of slaves to steal. I don't care if we have to escort slaves back. We want as many as possible, unless we decide to choke that AI for his juicy GloryLand.

It is true that an Archer, given a map with potential Panthers, will survive a lot better in the wilderness than a Scout would, and could even work its way up to earning Guerilla II.

Meanwhile, a Scout can be just as effective as an Archer at spawn-busting for our first Settler. Spawn-busting is not the same thing as defending from Barbarian units, but a properly-placed spawn buster can be quite effective at protecting our first Settler even without having to experience combat.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I meant building a settler 8 turns after settling so the scout wouldn't wait around too long.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Some Settler-first Testing (where "first" means the first build item that gets completed)
Well, with Slavery on Turn 0, building a Farm, Mining the GHFor, and whipping we can get our first Settler out on T15, 1400 BC and our Work Boat completed 1 turn later.

With Slavery on Turn 0, Chopping two GFors (and doing random things in between), but with no whipping, we can get our first Settler out on T14, 1440 BC and be at Size 2 for a possible whipping action of a Work Boat.

With Slavery on Turn 0, building a Farm, Chopping a GFor, and whipping we can get our first Settler out on T13, 1480 BC and if we Chop a second Forest we can have our Work Boat completed 1 turn later.

With Slavery on Turn 0, Roading a GFor and the G square next to it, then Chopping two GFor squares, and with 1 whip, we can get our first Settler out on T13, 1480 BC, with our Work Boat being completed 1 turn later.

With Slavery on Turn 0, partially Chopping the GFor 2E of our capital, Chopping the GFor 1N of our capital and capturing that Chop into the Settler while at Size 1, then waiting to Chop the 2E GFor until we are at Size 2, then we can whip the Settler and on Turn 12, 1520 BC, we will complete our Settler with our Work Boat being completed 1 turn later.

With Slavery on Turn 0, settling on Turn 0 and building a G Farm, then Chopping a GFor and whipping, following by attempting to Chop the next GFor, then we can whip the Settler and on Turn 12, 1520 BC, we will complete our Settler and we can finish the second Forest Chop to get our Work Boat 1 turn later. Note that in this trial run, the turn before Farming the Grassland square, I built the Settler for 1 turn, as we'd still grow to Size 2 just as quickly but would put more Hammers into the Settler... I haven't checked if skipping doing so or if settling on Turn 1 would make a difference.

But, basically, Turn 12, 1520 BC is the turn to beat or the turn to optimize the most out of for a Settler-first approach.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Note that by settling on Turn 1, instead of on Turn 0, we will lose 1 free Flask. That's not really a big deal, but I figured that I would mention it.

 

[chopster]

A post from kossin (in S&T forum, no danger) which helped me with some understanding of whipping with and without granary.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12226578&postcount=188

 

[Dhoomstriker]

How much do we want to explore before settling?

I mean, you can make a good argument for wanting to spend even a couple of turns exploring to find a more centralized location for our Palace.

A bit more testing...

Duh, obviously the fastest Settler-first approach is to simply build the Settler right from the start.

The downside, of course, is that we delay when we get our Work Boat out.

So: Don't revolt into Slavery, don't explore with the Worker, move the Worker to the GFor 1N of the GBanana, settle 1W on the GBanana on Turn 0, start building a Settler. Chop the GFor 1N of the capital into the Settler and then we'll temporarily work the Lake while we wait for our Cultural Borders to expand. Move 1N to the next GFor and Chop it. Result: Settler #2 on Turn 8, 1680 BC.


Right away, we would be losing 2 Forests without having any improved squares and we spent a lot of turns manually building the Settler instead of growing. I can't see a faster way to the Settler. Even delaying the first Forest Chop to move to another Forest will cause a 1 turn delay on the Settler since the second Chop would come 1 turn later that way.


On the plus side, after our Scout and Archer reveal the nearby area, we can get a second City built pretty quickly and then one or both of our Scout and Archer can go exploring.

On the downside, if the best City location for City #2 sucks or has a ton of Jungles, settling it really early won't necessarily help us out all that much. We'll also miss out on a "free" early whip in that the Whipping Unhappiness of an early whipping action would have worn off quite quickly.

 

[Jastrow]

The REAL SAVEs are also useful for determining when and if there are any barb cities and how many cities there are worldwide, their populations, and how many cities each AI has. That also tells us when human barbs will spawn, their cities will spawn, and when they'll start entering our borders to attack our cities.

Could you explain this a bit? I cant think of how to get any of this information (especially when will human barbs spawn) from turn zero?