SGOTM 18 - Kakumeika

[bcool]

Okay so Furs Corn adds 4 to our maintenance in the test game and 4 to our research.

I think it is worth accelerating that city even more, however that means we don't have much defense for it.

I didn't get any opportunity to steal another worker from GK in the test game. WastinTime was right that he will settle on the copper next (at least he did in the test game).
He has a ton of archers floating around and Mansa is likely to ask us to go to war with him.

I propose

Capitalist
T42-3 Wheat 2FP Library
T44-T46 Wheat 2FP Gold Library
T47 Whip Library, Wheat 2 FP
T48 Wheat, FP, Gold Chariot
T49 Wheat, FP, Gold, Marble Chariot
T50 Wheat, FP, Gold, Marble Chariot
T51 worker? or warrior before we lose the opportunity to build cheap MP units?

I like chopping 2 forests to accelerate the settler in Pigs
Perhaps we can skip the chariot build in the capital and whip the chariot in Pigs? (puts it back to 1 pop, but gets the chariot to the Corn, furs city in a reasonable amount of time)
The furs corn city is really nice, but it will need protection if we expect to go to war with GK again soon (either because we steal a worker from him or if Mansa demands it)

workers chop NW and NE of Pigs (yes before math) (2nd forest cuts down the settler an additional 2 turns--I think it is worth it)
one worker heads to farm the corn
one worker heads to either cottage the capital, mine the copper or farm a FP for Shark.

The Fur will become somewhat important for happiness reasons. Especially if we have so few MP units...

 

[WastinTime]

Woohoo! I skip a day and the PPP starts to turn in my favor! bcool, already mentioned what I was going to say about he value of the library in the capital even if you're not ready to run scientists (3-5 beakers.)

And now I see the latest suggestion even removes the worker! ...at least for this TS.

Sadly, the forest chops have increased. I see no reason to panic and rush a settler. The one chop (which also improves movement speed, and has a good chance to regrow) I bought into. I don't think we are in competition for the corn/fur. If we lose it, we put our city somewhere else and start the war earlier. GK settling in our direction is a good thing.

I might even be able to get a test game played today.

I didn't take mono because I was hoping for IW or something. I don't recall anyone on the team pushing for taking mono. Normally, I would have probably taken it, but because of No Brokering, he can't get it from anyone else. I'm still not sure we want it, but I would hate for Gandhi to research Alpha manually. Can anyone figure out what he's researching? or if not, at least can we tell it's not Alpha? He would get a big beaker boost for researching something everyone else has.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I like building the Library in Capitalist earlier. I don't like chopping a second forest into our Settler at Pigs. Our Workers have enough to do as it is and our Settler should easily get to the Fur site before Genghis Khan does.

Maybe we should build an Archer to defend Fur city; I don't like using a Chariot for that purpose. If a Chariot is built, it should help our Warrior poach another Worker or pillage Genghis Khan's (future) Copper Mine.

I agree with Seraiel that a Library in Shark would be desirable. I also agree with him that The Great Library would be slow to build with just the Copper Mine for hammers, even thought we have marble to accelerate it. Building The Great Library in Capitalist would be faster and would generate more research when we construct an Academy there. Do we have plans to move our capital to Pigs which will be able to build more cottages?

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[bcool]

The Great Library greatest benefit is not the research it produces but the gpp it produces.

I think we could and should build the Great Library in Pigs far faster and for greater benefit then building it in the capital or Shark.

I think we probably want to build the National Epic in a city we take from GK.

We use the Great Library to get a few quick great scientist and then it will be obsolete.

 

[WastinTime]

Seems logical to put GL in Pigs. Let's save those forests for that! It will also need a university, etc.

It would never have crossed my mind to move the Palace. Looking closer at Pigs city...I still have no inclination to move it.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Seems logical to put GL in Pigs. Let's save those forests for that! It will also need a university, etc.

It would never have crossed my mind to move the Palace. Looking closer at Pigs city...I still have no inclination to move it.

I'm fine with The Great Library in Pigs. Using some of those forests to build The Great Library is a very efficient use of them, especially with Marble connected.

Pigs could be a really great cottage city. The capital should be a great cottage city to leverage Bureaucracy's +50% commerce bonus. For this SGOTM, Bureacracy's +50% commerce bonus will be far more important than its +50% hammer bonus. Pigs with all its green land and those mostly riverside would make an ideal cottaged capital site. I don't see anything bad with moving the capital there other than the hammers needed to do so and it has plenty of those (forests). I see little advantage to keeping Capitalist as the capital; there are so many unuseable plots there and very few that can provide commerce. The only thing our current capital has going for it are Wheat, Gold, Marble and a few Floodplains; hardly worth getting (too) excited about.

@bcool:

The Great Library is the best research generating Great Wonder that is not dependent on building in other cities like the University of Sankore. Yes, it is a great source of GPP somewhat early in the game, but its the two free Scientist and the research they generate with no cost in food that really makes it shine. Yes, the GPP as just as significant too, but the two free Scientists' research will take us far when our research rate is otherwise rather small.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

So let's please get to a consensus very soon.

We probably don't have to change the goal oriented PPP. Changes to the detailed PPP are all that really matters at this point. I'd like to start playing by Wed. evening, so please propose changes to the detailed PPP.

I'm going to put bcool's recent PPP change in concerning Capitalist's micro.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I have just updated the PPP here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12765318&postcount=684

We don't have a consensus yet, so not everyone got what they wanted.

I still wonder whether its better to build an Archer for Fur City defense rather than a Chariot, but I can live with a Chariot since it can also provide some offense for any opportunity that arises.

Again, I plan to start playing Wed. evening to keep this game moving. I will try to monitor suggested changes or a consensus/compromise in this thread through the next 20 hours, and then I will play unless someone objects.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[WastinTime]

It never crossed my mind to stop working the gold for any reason. I'm testing this...

edit:
Ok, since it drops the growth from 4t to 2t, and more importantly, we're rushing the library, it is worth it. Approved. Now checking the 2nd time we don't work gold...

 

[WastinTime]

...deleted....

 

[Seraiel]

I find your choice for Pigs for the GL interesting. My intuition doesn't disagree with that, as it'll keep the GP-Pools clean, so we'll get a Great Spy 100% and a GS 100%. Normally, I try to stack GPP as much as possible so that I have 1 city creating like 100+ / turn, but as I just realize, the only thing that that does, is, that I get certain GPs faster, but then without having any control over the type of GP I get.

Sry btw. that I didn't have the time for playing out that test-game until now, I'm currently having a really hard time coming from that the semester is starting again and that I'm also playing my own game parallel towards this one.

Seraiel

 

[WastinTime]

I love the library plan. Currency t51 should be easy.

argument for chariot: Assuming we go to war over a worker again, GK has a scout in our homeland. It will make tile micro very difficult if it's stomping thru our land. I know I said we should not kill his scouts, but I'd like to revise that to "try" not to kill scouts. In other words, I'd like to see a chariot. here's the Micro:

Pigs City
T42-T46 Whip Chariot; Pigs,Horse
T47-T54 Settler; Pigs,Horse

Note: Whip and chop are on the same turn creating 10 gold overflow!!! this could get us to currency even faster, however this does delay the settler 1 turn....more testing coming...

 

[WastinTime]

Absolutely don't trade for just Mono. Don't trade at all until Currency. We can get Mono + maybe Meditation + gold. Soon you'll see why I did not trade Gandhi for one small tech we don't even need yet.

 

[WastinTime]

I got Currency t50!!

and, you'll be happy to know that we don't have to delay the settler 1 turn (because I can get us there without the extra 10 gold) However, I still favor the extra 10 gold to delay the settler.
(keep in mind that I'm also still delaying the settler to get a chariot).

I'll double check my micro and post it here...

Capitalist (includes bcool's plan to whip Library in t47)
T42-T43 Library; Wheat,x2FloodPlain (Go steal a Genghis worker, or protect Corn+Fur city if already at war)
T44-T46 Library; Wheat,Gold,x2FloodPlains
T47 - Whip Library; Wheat,FloodPlains, Gold
T48-49 - Research; Wheat,Gold,Floodplains

Pigs City
T42-T47 Settler; Pigs,Horse
T48-49 research; Pigs,Horse
T50-52 Settler

Shark
T42-T43 - Granary; Fish
T44-T47 - Granary; Fish,BronzeTile
T48 - research; Fish, bronzeTile
T49 - Granary; BronzeTile, citizen
T50 - Whip Granary; Fish

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I love the library plan. Currency t51 should be easy.

argument for chariot: Assuming we go to war over a worker again, GK has a scout in our homeland. It will make tile micro very difficult if it's stomping thru our land. I know I said we should not kill his scouts, but I'd like to revise that to "try" not to kill scouts. In other words, I'd like to see a chariot. here's the Micro:

Pigs City
T42-T46 Whip Chariot; Pigs,Horse
T47-T54 Settler; Pigs,Horse

Note: Whip and chop are on the same turn creating 10 gold overflow!!! this could get us to currency even faster, however this does delay the settler 1 turn....more testing coming...

Current micro in Pigs completes the Settler turn 49, ready to move turn 50. Your new micro with Charoit whip prepended completes the Settler turn 54, ready to move turn 55. That's a 5t delay rather then the 1t you have claimed.

We are already getting a Chariot in Capitalist after the Library. To control a troublesome Genghis Khan Scout, we can simply build a Warrior in the nearest city. We may not even DoW Genghis Khan a second time, if no opportunity to poach a Worker presents itself.

I don't like that we have removed a Worker build this turn set, hoping we can poach one. We should squeeze a Worker build in somewhere. Maybe we should place it after the Chariot in Capitalist; better late than never.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The current micro gets Currency at about the same time (t50 or t51).

I don't see much value in getting a Chariot so early for defense against annoying Genghis Khan scouts. It needs to be used for something more important to justify a 30H expense, like poaching a 2nd 60H Worker.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[WastinTime]

Alotta (a.k.a. Alotta Fagina)
T43-T45 Move east towards the capital
T46-T4950 Cottage 1SE of capital
T50-T53+ Farm flood plain 2S2E of capital Move to and Mine Copper

Let's not burn 3 turns moving...

Alotta (a.k.a. Alotta Fagina)
T43 Move east towards the capital
T44 cottage 1 turn
T45 Move east towards the capital
T46-T50 Cottage 1SE of capital

The other option (if we want copper sooner) does waste 3 turns moving..
Alotta (a.k.a. Alotta Fagina)
T43-T45 Move east towards the capital
T46 Cottage or Farm 2SE of capital
T47 Move to copper
T48+ Mine copper

 

[WastinTime]

The current micro gets Currency at about the same time (t50 or t51).

Sun Tzu Wu

No, current micro is not even close to T50. It's a solid T51. We need to sacrifice (I think) 2 turns of building research.

 

[WastinTime]

That's a 5t delay rather then the 1t you have claimed.

You misunderstood. Those are two different things. However I could have been clearer.

The additional 1t delay comes from getting the additional 10 gold overflow.

Of course the chariot, if we want it, causes a delay as you noted. If the team wants a settler sooner, we'd have to skip the chariot, but I still think we are better off whipping ASAP so we can start working off whip-anger and we should take the extra 1 turn delay for 10 gold.

 

[WastinTime]

Hmm. we don't even have the granary in Pigs yet. Maybe a whip is not so good especially since we don't need the 10 gold overflow. Changing micro again...