I think original micro is settler t50, mine
Reminder for all: Kaku decided we report things on the turn they are complete to prevent this kind of confusion and these errors
SGOTM 18 - Kakumeika
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I think original micro is settler t50, mine
Reminder for all: Kaku decided we report things on the turn they are complete to prevent this kind of confusion and these errors
Seraiel
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Just playing test-games. First information: Pigs-city will overtake Capitalist commercial-vise in the long-run. I'm not sure if it will overtake Capitalist in the time that this game will proabably go, but Capitalist can only work a maximum of 11 tiles, and that's including the plains-Hill 1N of it (on which I btw. suspect that there is Iron) .
Pigs-city can grow to a size of 15, and when comparing commercial values, Capitalist comes on a value of 10 (counting riverside cottages as 1 and Gold as 2) , while Pigs-city has a value of 12 (assuming that we would cottage the riverside grassland Hills, and with counting the riverside Horses as a grassland Cottage) .
I'll play out some scenarios now, what I'm assuming is, that Capitalist will stay the stronger site for so long, that moving the Palace won't be worth it, and that brings me back to thinking that building the GL there would be worth it. STW mentioned that the GL has also to be seen for the research it gives, and though I agree that the GP-Points are the main reason for building it, I just now find that 6 BPT minimum and 12 after we re-capture the Swinger Pad are not at all non-significant, 6 BPT are actually the value of 2 riverside Hamlets which is like 1/5th or so of what the cities are making, so it's actually a lot.
More later.
P.S.: Compliment at this point already for noticing that Capitalist will grow in 2 turns by working the 2 Floodplains, that's an idea I never would have gotten as I'm like WastinTime and could not imagine (until now) that choosing an unimproved Floodplain over improved Gold would really be the better choice.
Pigs-city can grow to a size of 15, and when comparing commercial values, Capitalist comes on a value of 10 (counting riverside cottages as 1 and Gold as 2) , while Pigs-city has a value of 12 (assuming that we would cottage the riverside grassland Hills, and with counting the riverside Horses as a grassland Cottage) .
I'll play out some scenarios now, what I'm assuming is, that Capitalist will stay the stronger site for so long, that moving the Palace won't be worth it, and that brings me back to thinking that building the GL there would be worth it. STW mentioned that the GL has also to be seen for the research it gives, and though I agree that the GP-Points are the main reason for building it, I just now find that 6 BPT minimum and 12 after we re-capture the Swinger Pad are not at all non-significant, 6 BPT are actually the value of 2 riverside Hamlets which is like 1/5th or so of what the cities are making, so it's actually a lot.
More later.
P.S.: Compliment at this point already for noticing that Capitalist will grow in 2 turns by working the 2 Floodplains, that's an idea I never would have gotten as I'm like WastinTime and could not imagine (until now) that choosing an unimproved Floodplain over improved Gold would really be the better choice.
It's really only because we're using that growth to get a library. Working the gold is still probably the right thing to do after the library.
i.e.
"T47 - Whip Library; Wheat,x2FloodPlains"
change to :
T47 - Whip Library; Wheat, Gold, FloodPlains
Seraiel
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Update to micro-plan:
T42-T43 Library; Wheat,x2FloodPlain (Go steal a Genghis worker, or protect Corn+Fur city if already at war)
T44-T46 Library; Wheat,Gold,Marble,1*FloodPlains
T47 - Whip Library; Wheat,x2FloodPlains
If we'd work the 2 FPs non-stop, the city would just have grown to size 5 in the turn in which we plan to whip the library. By working the Marble for 1 turn, the city will still be size 4 in the turn of the whip, causing it to be size 2 for 1 turn but grow to size 3 the next turn after.
Whipping right before the Food-bar is full (so 1 turn before Growth) is regarded generally superior, because of Granary-mechnics I understand but unfortunately cannot explain.
[EDIT]
Working on this.
T42-T43 Library; Wheat,x2FloodPlain (Go steal a Genghis worker, or protect Corn+Fur city if already at war)
T44-T46 Library; Wheat,Gold,Marble,1*FloodPlains
T47 - Whip Library; Wheat,x2FloodPlains
If we'd work the 2 FPs non-stop, the city would just have grown to size 5 in the turn in which we plan to whip the library. By working the Marble for 1 turn, the city will still be size 4 in the turn of the whip, causing it to be size 2 for 1 turn but grow to size 3 the next turn after.
Whipping right before the Food-bar is full (so 1 turn before Growth) is regarded generally superior, because of Granary-mechnics I understand but unfortunately cannot explain.
[EDIT]
Working on this.
Seraiel
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This is what I understand but cannot explain, so I'll show like bcool told me to:
Screenshot showing the city with current mirco plan:
Screenshot of the city with my updated micro plan:
Unfortunately, as you see, in the 2nd scenario the city would grow to size 4 1 turn later, so I worked the Floodplain instead of the Gold again, leading to this scenario 2 turns later:
Showing that we'd get Hammers + Food but lose Commerce, so I decided to show what would happen when full-time working the Gold also (but then again 1 turn later because I want the cities to have comparable sizes) :
Conclusion:
People are giving gold when saying that "the optimum time for a whip is 1 turn before the city grows" but they're stupid when they say "a whip 1 turn before the city grows is optimal" , because the result here is that while we'd gain Hammers with working the Marble, we'd lose Food + Commerce so in this specific case, growing to size 5 and then whipping with a half-food-bar is superior, not because the whip itself is more efficient (it's actually less efficient) but because the follow-up scenario shows better results in Food + Commerce while being worse in Hammers, Hammers would have to be Commerce because we want Currency in T50, so we'd lose Food.
So at least we now know (again) that our current plan is really good. Will test if not-working the Fish for 1 turn is really a good choice now.
Seraiel
Screenshot showing the city with current mirco plan:
Screenshot of the city with my updated micro plan:
Unfortunately, as you see, in the 2nd scenario the city would grow to size 4 1 turn later, so I worked the Floodplain instead of the Gold again, leading to this scenario 2 turns later:
Showing that we'd get Hammers + Food but lose Commerce, so I decided to show what would happen when full-time working the Gold also (but then again 1 turn later because I want the cities to have comparable sizes) :
Conclusion:
People are giving gold when saying that "the optimum time for a whip is 1 turn before the city grows" but they're stupid when they say "a whip 1 turn before the city grows is optimal" , because the result here is that while we'd gain Hammers with working the Marble, we'd lose Food + Commerce so in this specific case, growing to size 5 and then whipping with a half-food-bar is superior, not because the whip itself is more efficient (it's actually less efficient) but because the follow-up scenario shows better results in Food + Commerce while being worse in Hammers, Hammers would have to be Commerce because we want Currency in T50, so we'd lose Food.
So at least we now know (again) that our current plan is really good. Will test if not-working the Fish for 1 turn is really a good choice now.
Seraiel
Seraiel
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Not working the Food and working a normal citizen specialist (!) instead of it also = right choice:
Showing that working the citizen specialist gets us Food. Props to STW for finding this out.
Seraiel
Will play out scenarios for TGL in all cities now.
Showing that working the citizen specialist gets us Food. Props to STW for finding this out.
Seraiel
Will play out scenarios for TGL in all cities now.
Seraiel
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I have an idea.
Why don't we build the GL in Capitalist, while we build the Parthenon in Pigs City?
It basically doesn't matter if we get a Great Scientist or a Great Spy, at least to me.
Stacking the
in one city makes sense, because we can only build the NE in one city. It doesn't matter however, in which city the Parthenon stands, it's actually even better when it stands in a different city than the one having the NE, because of lowering the risk of getting a GA. The Parthenon itself is a huge Wonder (if compared to the GL) , and Pigs city has lots of Forrests, so it'd be ideal to build it there. I find the Parthenon itself to be a Wonder that's absolutely worth going for, because it's very strong, and this game is one that goes very long, so it's a game with very many GPs.
What do you think?
Why don't we build the GL in Capitalist, while we build the Parthenon in Pigs City?
It basically doesn't matter if we get a Great Scientist or a Great Spy, at least to me.
Stacking the
in one city makes sense, because we can only build the NE in one city. It doesn't matter however, in which city the Parthenon stands, it's actually even better when it stands in a different city than the one having the NE, because of lowering the risk of getting a GA. The Parthenon itself is a huge Wonder (if compared to the GL) , and Pigs city has lots of Forrests, so it'd be ideal to build it there. I find the Parthenon itself to be a Wonder that's absolutely worth going for, because it's very strong, and this game is one that goes very long, so it's a game with very many GPs.What do you think?
Seraiel
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I've played a test-game until Literature (didn't pay attentioin to micro very much but didn't play too bad either) .
Results from that test game are:
Test-game showed, that we can get a Library without problems in any of those cities, Pigs-city showed to be the most difficult city though, because we built a Settler in that city delaying the Granary in it resulting the city being small and unlocking the possibility of building a Library there later in comparison to Shark and Capitalist.
Interesting: Shark is so fast on the Library with having so much Food, that the city can even build a Lighthouse before the GL gets available.
Scary: Evil went WHEOOHRN very early in the test-game
.
Personal opinion:
Imo, we should build the GL in Capitalist and the Parthenon in Pigs city. My recent playing showed me, that Capitalist will be stronger in Commerce for a time that long, that I don't expect that moving the Palace to Pigs-city is worth it in this game. Pigs-city will only overtake Capitalist if we want it (so if we build Cottages on riverside Grassland Hills) , otherwise, the city will always be behind in Commerce. If you don't agree on the Parthenon at all, I'd still be fore building the GL in Capitalist, because stacking GPs makes sense to me. I also choose Capitalist for this build, because Capitalist is our Hammer-strongest city, and the city getting the GL should also be the city getting the NE, again, Capitalist will be faster there too.
Personally I also have no problems with a Capital that functions as a GP-Farm and as a Commercial city simultaniously, as I've played like that in various games already. Reason simply is, that the capital is the strongest city one has usually, so it can build the wonders with the highest speed, and capitals also tend to have a lot of food, which so they have the power to run 2 scientists even with working the cottages (also in this case, Capitalist has +6 Food with working all tiles except the Marble (and that plains-Hill on which I suspect a resource with a certainty of about 50%) , allowing for 2 Scientists, or even 2 Scientists and an Engineer.
Just to complete this and show the other options:
Building the GL and the NE in Shark will make us lose 5 turns on the GL and 2 turns on the NE. It'll result in 100% control to get GSs, but it's a definite loss of 68 (!) and 4 / turn! That's actually so much, that I think it can be safely assumed that with building the GL + NE in Shark, we'll miss on at least 1 GP in total over the cause of the game.
Building the GL + NE in Pigs-City comes with an effort, as to make the city competetive, we'd have to chop 2 Forrests before building the GL to build Mines on those Hills (WastinTime probably won't like this, because there's no garantuee that we'll get Math before aquiring Literature) , it again results in 100% control over the GP-Pool, it comes with a smaller loss in if we enforce that build with chopping even more Forrests into it, but we'd still lose the / turn.
Seraiel
Results from that test game are:
- Capitalist can build the GL in 12 turns. It's the strongest choice if we want to get that Library as soon as possible and with as little effort as possible, because:
- Pigs-City has less Hammers than Capitalist (7
if assuming that we mine a Hill compared to 10 which Capitalist has) and therefor needs to either chop Forrests into the GL, and / or mine 2 Hills. I assume building it in this city would mean that we were making an effort while we could get it easily and without effort in Capitalist and - Shark! It's astonishing, but that city needs "only" 17 turns to build the GL! I (we?) totally underestimated the Hammers of that city. It's on a Plains-Hill and it can work the Bronze, and thats 8 / turn!
Test-game showed, that we can get a Library without problems in any of those cities, Pigs-city showed to be the most difficult city though, because we built a Settler in that city delaying the Granary in it resulting the city being small and unlocking the possibility of building a Library there later in comparison to Shark and Capitalist.
Interesting: Shark is so fast on the Library with having so much Food, that the city can even build a Lighthouse before the GL gets available.
Scary: Evil went WHEOOHRN very early in the test-game
.Personal opinion:
Imo, we should build the GL in Capitalist and the Parthenon in Pigs city. My recent playing showed me, that Capitalist will be stronger in Commerce for a time that long, that I don't expect that moving the Palace to Pigs-city is worth it in this game. Pigs-city will only overtake Capitalist if we want it (so if we build Cottages on riverside Grassland Hills) , otherwise, the city will always be behind in Commerce. If you don't agree on the Parthenon at all, I'd still be fore building the GL in Capitalist, because stacking GPs makes sense to me. I also choose Capitalist for this build, because Capitalist is our Hammer-strongest city, and the city getting the GL should also be the city getting the NE, again, Capitalist will be faster there too.
Personally I also have no problems with a Capital that functions as a GP-Farm and as a Commercial city simultaniously, as I've played like that in various games already. Reason simply is, that the capital is the strongest city one has usually, so it can build the wonders with the highest speed, and capitals also tend to have a lot of food, which so they have the power to run 2 scientists even with working the cottages (also in this case, Capitalist has +6 Food with working all tiles except the Marble (and that plains-Hill on which I suspect a resource with a certainty of about 50%) , allowing for 2 Scientists, or even 2 Scientists and an Engineer.
Just to complete this and show the other options:
Building the GL and the NE in Shark will make us lose 5 turns on the GL and 2 turns on the NE. It'll result in 100% control to get GSs, but it's a definite loss of 68 (!)
and 4 / turn! That's actually so much, that I think it can be safely assumed that with building the GL + NE in Shark, we'll miss on at least 1 GP in total over the cause of the game.Building the GL + NE in Pigs-City comes with an effort, as to make the city competetive, we'd have to chop 2 Forrests before building the GL to build Mines on those Hills (WastinTime probably won't like this, because there's no garantuee that we'll get Math before aquiring Literature) , it again results in 100% control over the GP-Pool, it comes with a smaller loss in
if we enforce that build with chopping even more Forrests into it, but we'd still lose the / turn.Seraiel
We can't just play a builder game. We're not talking at all about our first army. I think we have skip the Parthenon and completely conquer GK instead. Maybe Pigs/Capitalist can make the army before Literature? Shark can set up some nice max overflow whips for the GL on Library and ? Lighthouse? I'm not sure that city needs a lighthouse. It's only his hills cities that scare me. Maybe we just take his capital and copper for now? In that case, the army would probably travel up the east RR, so maybe Shark would make troops instead?
I think this idea is moving firmly in the wrong direction.
Delaying our Fur+Corn city past T50 is folly. It is an amazing city site of the 1st order near our dedicated enemy.
There is no chariot to match Genghis' best unit, also a chariot. Any worker stealing or settling fur+corn is much harder without a chariot.
We have a huge amount of tiles to improve near Shark and the capital since we are poised to explode upwards in population once we have 4-5 cities and Hereditary Rule.
One worker simply can't improve flood plains at any decent rate. You gotta have two.
I can't muster enthusiasm for Currency 1 or 2 turns faster if it shoots our empire in the foot.
bcool
Deity
I don't support building research just to get currency faster.
I can see us building a worker in the capital after the library. (probably best to grow to 5 pop on military units and then plan a 2 pop whip of a worker there)
I think the library in the capital before the worker is worth it.
I'm very pessimistic that we will be able to steal another worker from GK even with a chariot.
I think there might be some creative ways to micro Fur/Corn to get a chariot and settler about the same time. We are going to need a chariot to protect Fur/Corn. Mansa will likely ask us to go to war with GK again even if we don't DoW ourselves for another worker steal.
Perhaps we can put one chop into the settler and one chop into the chariot?
I know WastinTime hates the chop before math, but if it means protecting and settling Fur/Corn I think it is worth it.
I think it is virtually guaranteed we will have math by the time we have literature. So math is coming soon. So I'm okay if we only do 1 chop for Pigs but we need to figure out the micro so we get a chariot and a settler out of that city in a timely way.
I think that this is a critical time for the direction of the team, and I think we have serious disagreements. So please STZ don't play tonight.
I can see us building a worker in the capital after the library. (probably best to grow to 5 pop on military units and then plan a 2 pop whip of a worker there)
I think the library in the capital before the worker is worth it.
I'm very pessimistic that we will be able to steal another worker from GK even with a chariot.
I think there might be some creative ways to micro Fur/Corn to get a chariot and settler about the same time. We are going to need a chariot to protect Fur/Corn. Mansa will likely ask us to go to war with GK again even if we don't DoW ourselves for another worker steal.
Perhaps we can put one chop into the settler and one chop into the chariot?
I know WastinTime hates the chop before math, but if it means protecting and settling Fur/Corn I think it is worth it.
I think it is virtually guaranteed we will have math by the time we have literature. So math is coming soon. So I'm okay if we only do 1 chop for Pigs but we need to figure out the micro so we get a chariot and a settler out of that city in a timely way.
I think that this is a critical time for the direction of the team, and I think we have serious disagreements. So please STZ don't play tonight.
bcool
Deity
GK is highly likely to settle on the copper right? I think we have to treat GK as a serious threat to Fur/Corn especially if we plan to agree with the DoW request coming from Mansa or if we plan to DoW Mansa.
I agree with Kaitzilla that settling Fur/Corn early is very important short term goal.
I agree with Kaitzilla that settling Fur/Corn early is very important short term goal.
bcool
Deity
What about a serious war with GoldMember? Is that something anyone is thinking about? Capturing his nearby city probably means the Colossus and a settled Great Merchant.
Is that worth building a navy?
Is that worth building a navy?
I'm not pushing that hard for T50 currency. I understand the desire to not build research, so nothing to argue about. I wanted to point out the sacrifice and think about it.
I think STW could play very soon. What questions remain for the first half of the TS? We can chop 1, build settler, library, granary. No need to decide on worker or chariot for several turns.
I think STW could play very soon. What questions remain for the first half of the TS? We can chop 1, build settler, library, granary. No need to decide on worker or chariot for several turns.
It depends on if there is a galley path to his city or not.
So, we need to explore Goldmember a bit.
And Dr. Evil a bit to make truly effective long term plans.
I really like how the mapmaker has given us 4 attractive military targets right at the start of the game.
Goldmember, Genghis, and Joao are all within about 10 tiles. Swingers Pad with Pyramids and lots of good tiles is 20 tiles away.
Also, if anyone on the team wants to be a hero, a quick dirty playthrough of the test game up till around 1500AD along the lines of our tentative master plan would be appreciated.
Lots of things can show up in such a thing. Like CtE is twice as hard to do without a religious capital and incurs many -1 diplo hits against whomever is gifted Swinger's Pad. (Assuming it will be Dr Evil since AI always take back cities they have previously owned)
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In my opinion, we just need some minor changes to the deitailed PPP and a consensus for it.
Please try to suggest some small changes that will improve it. Let's try to avoid making big changes, unless it causes a clear over all improvement with smaller drawbacks.
I will postpone play another 24 hours until we have a consensus on the detailed PPP.
Sun Tzu Wu
Please try to suggest some small changes that will improve it. Let's try to avoid making big changes, unless it causes a clear over all improvement with smaller drawbacks.
I will postpone play another 24 hours until we have a consensus on the detailed PPP.
Sun Tzu Wu
bcool
Deity
I'm good with Shark
Capitalist I think should produce a warrior and instead have Pigs build our chariot
I think we can improve Pigs
T42-T45 Chariot (2 chops go into chariot) working pigs and horses
T46-T50 Settler with 30 OF work pigs and horses grass forest
T51 whip settler work pigs and horses
T52 granary working pigs and horses
Worker gets to corn farm on T53 (which is in our culture) Finishes the corn farm on T57.
The settler with 2 chops get to settle at Fur/Corn on T57.
The 2nd forest chop gets the settler out 2 turns earlier. Which means Fur/Corn works the corn farm for 2 extra turns! That is 6 Food + 1 hammer + neutral commerce for 2 turns.
That is 12 food and 2 hammers for the cost of 10 hammers for the early chop. And yes 3 worker turns we could use elsewhere.
However I think it is worth it.
The earlier chariot gives us more chances to worker steal and to protect our worker and settler heading to Fur/Corn.
After the warrior build the capital should be in position to grow to 5 by T53 and whip another worker out by T55.
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In the test game, I just noticed that a Worker in Capitalist will expend a full movement point on the Road going South on that Road one plot. Why would that happen?
Sun Tzu Wu
Sun Tzu Wu
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The later Chariot in Capitalist arrives at the Fur city by t59. That seems early enough for defense of the city. Do we want Chariot each from Pigs and Capitalist?
Sun Tzu Wu
Sun Tzu Wu
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