SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

[Duckweed]

I feel completely oblivious now. What part have I failed to address? Or is it more detail on how I address their comments?

You should reply to any feedback and suggestions, especially what you disagree, and tell the reasons. If you agree, then you need to update your PPP to reflect the suggestions.

For instance, I have not seen any of that in your PPP about the axes movements (2 at the moment and 1 to come in the next turn). And your direction about the scout movement is vague since it's not safe on the way.

I have to make these as clear as possible since I learned the lessons from being not clear in the last sets.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13063682&postcount=194

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13076644&postcount=264

It seems that pomthom did not catch what I told about scout movement, and doshin did not catch what I tell about axes movement.

To emphasize again, please update your PPP to reflect the changes, you don't need to rewrite the whole PPP, just edit the previous version.

BTW, it would be good to stop after completing Currency since Toku might have some cash to offer, another condition to stop is when meeting new AIs, we could discussion about trade them.

 

[Doshin]

Duckweed, I am not sure what you mean re. Axe movement. The western Axe captured a Worker and then severed the road 1S of Constantinople. As you can see from my posts, this process was slowed to T40 by Asoka's Archer movement, and on T41 I chose to revert to the Grassland hill. Nobody had suggested moving the Axeman westwards, and I opted to continue harassment (as you yourself had suggested).

The Southern Axe farmed XP and then remained in place to heal. I was unable to move it further away due to the barbarian Axeman threatening the Settler, which will attack units outside of borders. I suppose I could have moved him 1W on T41, if that is what you mean.

----

@Folket

I attach one last save for comparison. I delayed the Academy by one turn, so I imagine that the looks weaker. The capital produces 38.5 with the slider at 100%, but only 22 at 0%.

Although comparisons are difficult, especially because you are building Wealth in your save, here are some pictures:

Spoiler :

Some comparison shots with your last save:

Spoiler :

I not sure about whipping a Settler in the capital to speed up city #5, but perhaps you can find a way to make it work?

Settling Amsterdam on T51 gains a four turn head-start versus slow-building the Settler (T55) in the capital. This gains four turns of production (let's say +20F) with four turns of additional maintenance (-16C). The whip also means that we can work one less tile in the capital for 10 turns, and population here is valuable, especially when we are running Scientists (Corn/Pigs/Copper/Marble/Riverside Cottage/2x Scientists = 7-pop to work good tiles). Settling sooner also means that Workers are needed further north sooner, so improvements in our current empire suffer in turn.

The matter is not clear to me, so I leave it up to you. Being able to whip a Granary at size 3 (with 31/60H) and preserve a forest would be one good argument.

As soon as you post a final PPP I will give a thumbs up or thumbs down.

 

[Folket]

Duckweed, I am not sure what you mean re. Axe movement. The western Axe captured a Worker and then severed the road 1S of Constantinople. As you can see from my posts, this process was slowed to T40 by Asoka's Archer movement, and on T41 I chose to revert to the Grassland hill. Nobody had suggested moving the Axeman westwards, and I opted to continue harassment (as you yourself had suggested).

The Southern Axe farmed XP and then remained in place to heal. I was unable to move it further away due to the barbarian Axeman threatening the Settler, which will attack units outside of borders. I suppose I could have moved him 1W on T41, if that is what you mean.

----

@Folket

I attach one last save for comparison. I delayed the Academy by one turn, so I imagine that the looks weaker. The capital produces 38.5 with the slider at 100%, but only 22 at 0%.

Although comparisons are difficult, especially because you are building Wealth in your save, here are some pictures:
I'm not certain what we should do about the building wealth thing. Me and Soundjata wants to turn hammers to wealth while you want more axes and perhaps started libraries. Without anyone else mentioning their stand I will go with building wealth. As for comparison we can just add up hammer with gold.

I not sure about whipping a Settler in the capital to speed up city #5, but perhaps you can find a way to make it work?

Settling Amsterdam on T51 gains a four turn head-start versus slow-building the Settler (T55) in the capital. This gains four turns of production (let's say +20F) with four turns of additional maintenance (-16C). The whip also means that we can work one less tile in the capital for 10 turns, and population here is valuable, especially when we are running Scientists (Corn/Pigs/Copper/Marble/Riverside Cottage/2x Scientists = 7-pop to work good tiles). Settling sooner also means that Workers are needed further north sooner, so improvements in our current empire suffer in turn.
Let's say 14 food and 13 hammers. I would say is worth the upkeep of 16C, if we decide to chop we get 12 food and 16 hammers more. I'm unable to determine the exact cost for the capital from work.

The matter is not clear to me, so I leave it up to you. Being able to whip a Granary at size 3 (with 31/60H) and preserve a forest would be one good argument.
I think the forest in unrelated. It will always be possible if two workers are ready when we settle the city.

As soon as you post a final PPP I will give a thumbs up or thumbs down.

I will post a PPP tonight for turn 42-47 with military moves.

 

[Folket]

You should reply to any feedback and suggestions, especially what you disagree, and tell the reasons. If you agree, then you need to update your PPP to reflect the suggestions.

For instance, I have not seen any of that in your PPP about the axes movements (2 at the moment and 1 to come in the next turn). And your direction about the scout movement is vague since it's not safe on the way.
The scout is planing to move accoridng to your suggestions. S,SEW,S.

I plan to go west immediately with axe 1 and would prefer to wait 1 turn before going to Asoka with axe 2. I would like some feedback as to how safe people feel. If people are confident that no barb will arrive before our axeman I will send him at once. I will post exact path for the next two turns in the PPP tonight.

I have to make these as clear as possible since I learned the lessons from being not clear in the last sets.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13063682&postcount=194

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13076644&postcount=264

It seems that pomthom did not catch what I told about scout movement, and doshin did not catch what I tell about axes movement.

To emphasize again, please update your PPP to reflect the changes, you don't need to rewrite the whole PPP, just edit the previous version.

BTW, it would be good to stop after completing Currency since Toku might have some cash to offer, another condition to stop is when meeting new AIs, we could discussion about trade them.

Yes, play until currency makes sense.

 

[soundjata]

@ Folket:
I did not suggest building wealth.

When looking at the comparison between your save and Doshin's, my opinion was that more commerce was better than more hammers.

I would maybe advocate building wealth if it can speed up Litterature by a turn.

Good luck

 

[Folket]

@ Folket:
I did not suggest building wealth.

When looking at the comparison between your save and Doshin's, my opinion was that more commerce was better than more hammers.

I would maybe advocate building wealth if it can speed up Literature by a turn.

Good luck

If commerce is better then hammers surly it implies that building wealth is a good way to turn hammers into something more valuable.

 

[Duckweed]

Duckweed, I am not sure what you mean re. Axe movement. The western Axe captured a Worker and then severed the road 1S of Constantinople. As you can see from my posts, this process was slowed to T40 by Asoka's Archer movement, and on T41 I chose to revert to the Grassland hill. Nobody had suggested moving the Axeman westwards, and I opted to continue harassment (as you yourself had suggested).

The Southern Axe farmed XP and then remained in place to heal. I was unable to move it further away due to the barbarian Axeman threatening the Settler, which will attack units outside of borders. I suppose I could have moved him 1W on T41, if that is what you mean.

Here's the right post

1) Southern Axe

Does it unmoved, go 1SW and get the easy exp and heal. Barbarian won't approach 2 tiles around our culture, so 4th city site should be safe.

2) Woody Allen

If Asoka produces a new worker fast enough, it might be able to steal another worker, otherwise, let it explore west when our 2nd axes is able to take over his job.

3) Scout

Pity that all tiles to NE corner are sealed by forests. I'm nor sure whether we should risk to enter. Maybe not.



Wait a bit to see what Woody Allen could reveal. If your assumption is true, then for sure. But from PR's graph, it seems that they did a lot of tradings in 1 turn, so ...

Most of answers to your questions were there already. I could not predict everything precisely, so I can only give rough suggestions and directions and leave more options in actively player' hands.

Axe1 could move toward west on T37, arrive and pillage the road on T38 which should be 5 turns west than his current position. Axe2 could completely heal in 1~2 turns with 2 promotions and should be in the GH already. Also as I explained, city4 is safe.

@Folket

As I said, you have to include everything in your PPP to be clear. Anything that you are unsure or need votes, state it clearly in PPP. Also see my reply above, I already explain that city4 is safe for now. Especially before Toku settles his 3rd city.

About micro, I stand on doshin's side mostly. Give me sometime so that I could take a look at both saves tonight.

Some suggestions on top of doshin's save

1. could add 1 grassland cottage in capital
2. try to produce archer in sheepish so that we can 2 pop whip axe
3. Could whip an axe in capital

 

[Folket]

Could anyone suggest a way to micro Rice pudding to get the first axe out faster?

 

[Doshin]

Here's the right post

Axe1 could move toward west on T37, arrive and pillage the road on T38 which should be 5 turns west than his current position.

As I said, Asoka's Archer blocked access to this tile on T37. I moved west, but the Archer moved onto the road itself on T38. On T38 I moved the Axe 2E1S of Constantinople, so that the Archer would move into the city (tests showed that the Archer would freeze if I remained 1E of Constantinople). Asoka completed TGW IBT. On T39 I moved 2W, onto the road. On T40, I pillaged. On T41, I moved to the Grassland Hill hoping that Asoka would produce another Worker. He did not: the city grew.

Axe2 could completely heal in 1~2 turns with 2 promotions and should be in the GH already. Also as I explained, city4 is safe.

I was not worried about City 4 but Settler 4. Tokugawa's Scout (can influence barb movement), the position of Axe 1 (still in Asoka's territory), and the discovery of the pre-settled barbarian city (takes the city threshold closer to 3* total players) also influenced my decision.

Could anyone suggest a way to micro Rice pudding to get the first axe out faster?

The second Axe in my save is out one turn sooner. As the city is –2F +7H compared to yours, I imagine that this came from working the Spices > unimproved Rice/Grassland Forest/Lake.

I cannot recall how I managed the first Axe production. There are two ways, as I see it:

1. Whip the Axeman. It is better to put some hammers into an Axeman at an early stage (~T42–46), when the city is small and no Grassland Hills are improved. Working the Corn/Sugar/FP = 1HPT; working the Corn/Sugar/FP/Spices = 3HPT; working the Corn/Sugar/FP/GH = 4HPT. The Axeman will be whipped after the Barracks, so any OF from the Barracks whip needs to go into (an) Archer(s).
   
2. Slow build an Axeman and use OF from the Barracks whip to complete this.

I would need to retest to check my exact build order.

Whips should be @ size 5, when the food-bank is nearly full. This allows the city to continually work the FP/Sugar/Corn in the early stages. Later, a Grassland Hill can take the place of the FP @ size 3.

Although I have not tested, my impression is that a 3-pop whip of a Library on T58/9 will keep unhappiness under control. The capital at this point should be working the FP, due to the Academy, and each Grassland Hill decreases the food surplus (+7F at size 2) by –1F. I value in this city because of long-term unhappiness issues, although your save is managing these issues as well.

 

[Duckweed]

As I said, Asoka's Archer blocked access to this tile on T37. I moved west, but the Archer moved onto the road itself on T38. On T38 I moved the Axe 2E1S of Constantinople, so that the Archer would move into the city (tests showed that the Archer would freeze if I remained 1E of Constantinople). Asoka completed TGW IBT. On T39 I moved 2W, onto the road. On T40, I pillaged. On T41, I moved to the Grassland Hill hoping that Asoka would produce another Worker. He did not: the city grew.

Move Axe1 to Ivory 1st, if the archer block the forest road that you pillaged, pillaging the Ivory will serve the same purpose. There are many ways to do the job. The main factor was that whether you have the scouting priority in mind.

I was not worried about City 4 but Settler 4. Tokugawa's Scout (can influence barb movement), the position of Axe 1 (still in Asoka's territory), and the discovery of the pre-settled barbarian city (takes the city threshold closer to 3* total players) also influenced my decision.

You could move that axe earlier even with your consideration.

I don't want to blame anyone since that's more of free decisions on active player's hands. I did not even mention those after the plays. In fact, I blamed myself for not being very clear. I learned the lesson and try to avoid it.

Back to PPP

I don't think I need to step on the actual micro since Doshin and Folket have already spent lots of effort.

Just some thoughts.

• We could expect 1 or 2 free workers (his 2nd city should be producing a worker now) in about 5 turns, so that might change the micro a bit. We could send the worker in sheepish north as well. Edit: maybe not, since we need workers to prechop some forests in capital to speedup TGL.
  
• We need to start the roads to Asoka's territory in the near future, so we could let the 2nd captured free worker to start road from near Asoka's territory.
  
• The SOD for taking Asoka's cities should be ready ~T60. The troops we are going to have
• 1 axe scouting west
• 1 axes in south and 1 axe north for barbarian issue
• We could produce 4 axes in capital (with 1 whip) in capital, 4 axes with 2 whips in rice pudding, and 2 axes in sheepish with 1 whip (without barrack)

10 axes should be enough to take Asoka's capital if he is still busying in producing workers. It would be nice if we could trade IW and connect a iron to produce some swords

 

[Doshin]

Regardless, it would be good to have the game progress in the next day or two. We are falling behind. I am happy for Folket to play on with his save, after seeing a final PPP (no Wealth ). Or I can post my micro and we can follow that. Differences exist between the saves, but they are minor and progress is important at this stage.

As with my set, I doubt that we will play all the planned turns in one session. There are too many variables. 3–5 turns at a time seems more realistic, with breaks for surprises (e.g. we meet another AI).

Asoka built a Missionary in his capital on T40, and Constantinople grew IBT T40–T41. He is probably building another Archer, as Thessalonica only has one defender.

 

[Folket]

PPP until currency.
turn 42
worker 1 moves to N of Sheepish and starts to chop
worker 2 moves to Case Départ
worker 3 moves to Case Départ
scout moves towards cow
axeman 2 stays in place
scout moves S

turn 43
worker 2 move to SE of Rice Pudding and start chop
worker 3 move to SE of Rice Pudding and start chop
Rice Pudding grows and starts to work rice
Axeman 1 move to ivory
Axeman 2 move 2N
archer 1 move to W of Golden sands
scout moves SE, W

turn 44
worker 2 Move to rice and finish farm
worker 3 move to NE of Rice Pudding and start mine
worker 4 move to ESESE of Golden sands and build road for 1 turn
Axeman 1 S of pigs.
axeman 2 move to rice
archer 1 move to NW of golden sands.
scout moves S

turn 45
Case Départ grows and starts settler
worker 2 move to ESESE of Golden sands and build road for 1 turn
worker 4 move to ESEE of Golden sands and build road for 1 turn
Rice Pudding grows and starts to work silk
worker 1 move to SW of Case Départ and build road for 1 turn
axeman 1 continues west moving on forests when available.
axeman 2 move NW to see if there are any workers. Either capture worker or move E
axeman 3 move 2S from Case Départ

turn 46
whip granary in Sheepish
worker 4 move to EEEE of golden sands and build road for 1 turn
worker 2 move to EESE of golden sands and build road for 1 turn
worker 1 start marble
80% research
axeman 1 continues west moving on forests when available.
axeman 2 move NW to see if there are any workers. Either capture worker or move SE
axeman 3 move to Sheepish

 

[Doshin]

PPP until currency.
turn 42
worker 1 moves to N of Sheepish and starts to chop
worker 2 moves to Case Départ
worker 3 moves to Case Départ
scout moves towards cow
axeman 2 stays in place

Begin moving this westward, to take over Worker harassment duties.

scout moves S

turn 43
worker 2 move to SE of Rice Pudding and start chop
worker 3 move to SE of Rice Pudding and start chop
Rice Pudding grows and starts to work rice

This is better than working the Silk in your version, I assume?

Axeman 1 move to ivory
Axeman 2 move 2N

2N how? T42 micro needs updating, I think.

archer 1 move to W of Golden sands

I would personally prefer to keep this Archer in Golden Sands. Compared to fortifying on a forest hill, this adds +25% from the city defense bonus and will allow the Archer to heal more quickly. It is also important to accumulate the fortification bonus in the city now, before the barb invasion begins.

scout moves SE, W

turn 44
worker 2 Move to rice and finish farm
worker 3 move to NW of Rice Pudding and start mine

NW or NE?

worker 4 move to ESESE of Golden sands and build road for 1 turn
Axeman 1 S of pigs.
axeman 2 move to rice
archer 1 move to NW of golden sands.
scout moves S

turn 45
Case Départ grows and starts settler
worker 2 move to ESESE of Golden sands and build road for 1 turn
worker 4 move to ESEE of Golden sands and build road for 1 turn
Rice Pudding grows and starts to work silk
worker 1 move to SW of Case Départ and build road for 1 turn
axeman 1 continues west moving on forests when available.
axeman 2 move NW to see if there are any workers. Either capture worker or move E
axeman 3 move 2S from Case Départ

turn 46
whip granary in Sheepish
worker 4 move to EEEE of golden sands and build road for 1 turn
worker 2 move to EESE of golden sands and build road for 1 turn
worker 1 start marble
80% research
axeman 1 continues west moving on forests when available.
axeman 2 move NW to see if there are any workers. Either capture worker or move SE
axeman 3 move to Sheepish

I trust that Rice Pudding can produce a Barracks, Archer(s), and two Axemen with two whips?

In any case, green light from me.

 

[Folket]

Yes, NE of rice pudding.

So is no one else worried about barbs in the south? I will move it earlier then.

 

[kossin]

My understanding of the south is we can always get some emergency units there quickly. And we've already killed a few units. The nasty barb era is more or less done, I think.

I'll check PPP in a few hours

 

[Doshin]

My understanding of the south is we can always get some emergency units there quickly. And we've already killed a few units. The nasty barb era is more or less done, I think.

Optimistic thinking, I'm afraid. We've only killed one barb Archer.

I expect the rush, when it comes, to be quite nasty due to the barbarian Axemen and TGW. That should begin in ~10 turns.

 

[kossin]

Optimistic thinking, I'm afraid. We've only killed one barb Archer.

I expect the rush, when it comes, to be quite nasty due to the barbarian Axemen and TGW. That should begin in ~10 turns.

Ahh I thought we'd gotten the Axe from a forest. Just shows how much I'm following

re: PPP

T44
If we're expecting more workers, I think the riverside hill is a better improvement for now. Early commerce is important (since this game is another beaker race) and the hill can be a transit-improvement-tile just like the forest chops.

OR if this worker is required to finish the roads in time for the incoming settler... proceed as you proposed.

T45
Take note of the total expenses (gpt expenses)

T46
Take note of the total expenses (gpt expenses)
If the expenses are the same don't whip Sheepish and work riverside tile for extra commerce.

 

[Doshin]

T46
Take note of the total expenses (gpt expenses)
If the expenses are the same don't whip Sheepish and work riverside tile for extra commerce.

^^^^ but +1C comes with +1 turn of whip anger. Do you think it's worth it?

Looking at the city, I'd imagine it will be whipped fairly heavily in the early stage (+8F after the border-pop) before settling down as a commerce city.

 

[kossin]

I'd take the extra early commerce, but that's me.

 

[Folket]

Ahh I thought we'd gotten the Axe from a forest. Just shows how much I'm following

re: PPP

T44
If we're expecting more workers, I think the riverside hill is a better improvement for now. Early commerce is important (since this game is another beaker race) and the hill can be a transit-improvement-tile just like the forest chops.
I'm uncertain to which worker you refer to here. One working is mining riverside hill. Is it the one that is currently working on farm or the worker that finishes the farm?

OR if this worker is required to finish the roads in time for the incoming settler... proceed as you proposed.

T45
Take note of the total expenses (gpt expenses)

T46
Take note of the total expenses (gpt expenses)
If the expenses are the same don't whip Sheepish and work riverside tile for extra commerce.

My understanding of the south is we can always get some emergency units there quickly. And we've already killed a few units. The nasty barb era is more or less done, I think.

We can whip the axeman in Case Départ which will get there in three turns. If the barbs are really going for the city it won't be fast enough. We could move warrior from Case Départ but it would only help vs a warrior.