SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

[Folket]

The mysterious mine could be Iron, but I would prefer to continue exploring than pillage it.

It could also be stupid or aluminium. It must have been placed in the world builder.

Would be nice if you could post a save or some screenshots.

A couple of things

I don't like much to whip settler in capital since I'd rather save the whip for axes. The early 5th city won't help with our immediate goals -- TGL and taking Asoka's cities. It would only slow down both goals.

T53 sheepish produce archer as we need city police, more important, we could whip axe later.

Edit: more issues

Axe1 should turn to NW and try to stay on forest possible, it's still easy to die if facing a barbarian axe.
Axe3 try to kill the barbarian archer 1st (SE->GH->1S of the sheep) and then try to defense and kill the barbarian axe in the forest tile. Promote it to combat I to attack and then MedicI next.

I do not see any good micro where we whip axemen. Only way would be to stop working copper.

When do we plan to take Asoka with axes? City #5 only need a granary. It can get two axemen turn 67 and 68.

Archer in Sheepish might be a good idea. I will do that.

What's the planned use of first GS? If it's for a bulb, then there's no rush and I'm fine with whipping CaseDepart. If we're looking for an Academy, then we can slow down the settler a bit and maybe spend some time improving RicePudding/GoldenSands some more.

It's true that this city does not bring that much (no happy, too late for axe rush, commerce drag) so I don't feel compelled to get it out as early as possible in a beaker game pre-mathematics and CoL.
~~~~

I've gone through the micro and it seems sound but I'd like the team to answer to the above.

Tokugawa will only trade a tech if everyone else knows it, other than the exceptions (Alphabet, Monarchy for instance). We're also not getting him Friendly any time soon so I'm not interested in trying to get Mathematics from him.

I do not think the use of the GS matter. If we plan for a academy we could just save up some more money if we delay it. We do not have enough gold for literature anyhow.

It seems the team is behind Doshins original plan to delay the settling of city #5. To bad it was not voiced so when I last planed. Now all the worker micro is very suboptimal for a later settler.

I can't test or check the micro just now. So just my thoughts, FWIW.

The first GS is meant to build an Academy, surely? These always pay back in a capital that will receive Oxford, and we will have an abundance of GSs later from TGL. I also see no reason to bulb techs early, unless you want to consider Philosophy (the AI usually get this for the human, though).

I avoided whipping the Settler in my test runs, so I have little experience with settling City #5 so early. What might work best is to whip the Settler, but delay this as long as possible (~64H) to maximize OF.

This could also help us avoid city screens that look like this:

Spoiler :

We're working a lot of weak tiles for the sake of an early Axe.

To add to the above, on T54, with a Library and Academy, the capital should really be working the FPs.

Remember that 2–pop Axe whips are impossible in the capital, thanks to the Copper, and that we have happiness issues here, thanks to all the food. So a judicious 2–pop whip of a Settler may be the best way to churn out Axemen.

---

Edit: thanks, kossin, for correcting my fog-busting advice and torpedoing my Mathematics idea.

A later two pop whip might be the way to go. I need to run a test game to see how things turn out.

 

[soundjata]

Can't contribute but nice to see we're making good progress

 

[Duckweed]

What's the planned use of first GS? If it's for a bulb, then there's no rush and I'm fine with whipping CaseDepart. If we're looking for an Academy, then we can slow down the settler a bit and maybe spend some time improving RicePudding/GoldenSands some more.

Yes, Getting TGL as soon as possible is our consistent goal from beginning, we could save some cash till academy and then push toward Lit. We could do the whip after 1st GS.

I do not see any good micro where we whip axemen. Only way would be to stop working copper.

Stop working copper for 1 turn is trivial now, the whip give us 2 very useful axe, which will greatly speed up our war progress, getting Asoka's cities sooner is way better than the self founded 5th city.

When do we plan to take Asoka with axes? City #5 only need a granary. It can get two axemen turn 67 and 68.

Back to PPP

I don't think I need to step on the actual micro since Doshin and Folket have already spent lots of effort.

Just some thoughts.

• We could expect 1 or 2 free workers (his 2nd city should be producing a worker now) in about 5 turns, so that might change the micro a bit. We could send the worker in sheepish north as well. Edit: maybe not, since we need workers to prechop some forests in capital to speedup TGL.
  
• We need to start the roads to Asoka's territory in the near future, so we could let the 2nd captured free worker to start road from near Asoka's territory.
  
  [*]The SOD for taking Asoka's cities should be ready ~T60. The troops we are going to have
  [*]1 axe scouting west
  [*]1 axes in south and 1 axe north for barbarian issue
  [*]We could produce 4 axes in capital (with 1 whip) in capital, 4 axes with 2 whips in rice pudding, and 2 axes in sheepish with 1 whip (without barrack)
  

10 axes should be enough to take Asoka's capital if he is still busying in producing workers. It would be nice if we could trade IW and connect a iron to produce some swords

Archer in Sheepish might be a good idea. I will do that.


I do not think the use of the GS matter. If we plan for a academy we could just save up some more money if we delay it. We do not have enough gold for literature anyhow.

Yes.

It seems the team is behind Doshins original plan to delay the settling of city #5. To bad it was not voiced so when I last planed. Now all the worker micro is very suboptimal for a later settler.

As I mentioned clearly here, I favors Doshin's micro.

@Folket

As I said, you have to include everything in your PPP to be clear. Anything that you are unsure or need votes, state it clearly in PPP. Also see my reply above, I already explain that city4 is safe for now. Especially before Toku settles his 3rd city.

About micro, I stand on doshin's side mostly. Give me sometime so that I could take a look at both saves tonight.

Some suggestions on top of doshin's save

1. could add 1 grassland cottage in capital
2. try to produce archer in sheepish so that we can 2 pop whip axe
3. Could whip an axe in capital

5th city could also be a trigger for barbarian invasion.

One thing you have not replied to my post is about Axe1 movement, which I already repeated 2nd time, but you did not follow in your last set. NW area cover with forests and jungles, turning to that direction grants safety and speed. Another reason is that Toku's location is on south part, which is more likely to block the way, north part is easier for either AIs or us to pass. And Axe3 movements, do you agree or disagree?

As I have said again and again, if you disagree with my suggestions, say it clearly so that I could explain further to you, this will also bring other players' opinions to optimize the play. TBH, I'm happy to see the disagreements as long as they come with reasonable arguments.

 

[Doshin]

The capital has:

T47: 24/100H
T48: 36/100H
T49: 48/100H (unhappy citizen gone)

On T51, the Quarry completes.

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So, to allow a 2–pop Axeman whip, the capital on T49 or T50 should change the Copper to the Floodplains, and the new citizen to the Spices or a Grassland Forest (Spices > GF, unless the GF is needed to grow on T51).

We're at size 7 now. A 2–pop whip on T50 lets us work (1) Pigs; (2) Corn; (3) Copper; (4–5) Scientists. Rice Pudding can then reclaim the FPs.

I assume that we'll regrow to size 6 on T51. We can then work the Quarry (6) as well as the above tiles (1–5). We will have an Axeman, ~33H OF, and produce 9HPT, with +4FPT.

It should, then, be easy to produce Axe 1 on T51, Axe 2 on T52, and Axe 3 on T55. Axe 3 will be the toughest to produce before the city grows to size 7.

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Axe 4 can be produced soonest if we 2–pop the Settler (48/100H ----> ~30H OF). I guess the Settler would be whipped about T55, and the Axeman produced on T56.

The Great Scientist is due to arrive on T54. So we have population to whip, unless we lay down some Cottages before then. Unhappiness will be an issue.

To 2–pop whip an Axeman after T54 means that we have to stop working the Quarry and Copper for a turn (approx. –6H –2C). That would lead to 5–6 Axemen from 2 whips.

If we slow build the Settler, then IDK... Axeman 4 will be ready ~T61? We can get a lot of hammers from the Corn and Pigs, with careful OF management.

Obviously Worker 3 is not needed in the north, if the Settler is not being whipped ASAP.

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^^^^ just thoughts, all untested.

 

[Folket]

I will have to go on a business trip on Wednesday so I won't have time to both work out a new micro and play it.

Someone need to take over from here.

 

[Duckweed]

Doshin is probably most familiar with the micro of the following turns, of course if he has time for the next few days.

Furthermore, may I suggest that we do the rotation like SGOTM 14 and 15, where each player play more turns to achieve certain goals. This will let the active player get a more thoroughly considered plan oriented to the goals, and avoid the time needed to pass to next player who takes some time to get familiar with the game.

The goal of current set is TGL and assembling the SOD to finish Asoka.

 

[Doshin]

I am busy, but I will be busy in a few weeks too, so I don't mind taking over again if this speeds our pace and the later turns are shared equally among the team. kossin, is that ok with you? You are due next in the roster.

@all, correct me or give me your thoughts on the major points:

• Stack of Doom: 2 Axemen per Archer, so we need ~9 total for safety. +4 from the capital, +2 from Sheepish, Axe +1 from Rice Pudding (Axe 2 goes to Golden Sands), +1 is already in place. 8 total. This is still a tough target without chopping. Sheepish will be whipped hard.
  
• Great Scientist: ideally ASAP, but I don't mind delaying this for a turn or two if it speeds up the Axe rush. However, if we meet more AI (with ) then the GS becomes more urgent, to speed TGL.
  
• TGL: probably a 2 or turn build with OF and ~5 chops. A long way off.
  
• Settlers: after City #5, unimportant, but use to control unhappiness in capital. No good sites at present, so hopefully we can find a good city West/NW of Golden Sands. If not, Sheep/Horse/Rice I guess? This is also in the far future.
  
• Exploration: Axeman 1 at the moment. I'll try to head 2W on this turn and then move NW. Barbarian Axemen are a big danger, obviously, so I value careful movement over reckless exploration.
  
  EDIT: if northern exploration is paramount, I can go 1NE 1NW this turn. We sacrifice forward movement for a better position.

I'll try and put a plan together tomorrow, but TGL is some turns away so I doubt I will be able to write up the entire thing in one day.

 

[Duckweed]

I am busy, but I will be busy in a few weeks too, so I don't mind taking over again if this speeds our pace and the later turns are shared equally among the team. kossin, is that ok with you? You are due next in the roster.

@all, correct me or give me your thoughts on the major points:

• Stack of Doom: 2 Axemen per Archer, so we need ~9 total for safety. +4 from the capital, +2 from Sheepish, Axe +1 from Rice Pudding (Axe 2 goes to Golden Sands), +1 is already in place. 8 total. This is still a tough target without chopping. Sheepish will be whipped hard.
  
  Rice pudding could provide at least 4 axes.
  
• Great Scientist: ideally ASAP, but I don't mind delaying this for a turn or two if it speeds up the Axe rush. However, if we meet more AI (with ) then the GS becomes more urgent, to speed TGL.
  
  Yes, there's no need to whip capital before academy since the bottleneck of SOD is from sheepish.
  
• TGL: probably a 2 or turn build with OF and ~5 chops. A long way off.
  
• Settlers: after City #5, unimportant, but use to control unhappiness in capital. No good sites at present, so hopefully we can find a good city West/NW of Golden Sands. If not, Sheep/Horse/Rice I guess? This is also in the far future.
  
  The horse/clam site north of Asoka's capital is good for 6th settler.
  
• Exploration: Axeman 1 at the moment. I'll try to head 2W on this turn and then move NW. Barbarian Axemen are a big danger, obviously, so I value careful movement over reckless exploration.
  
  Yes, safety is more important, I'd go 2W1N on the mine instead since it could use the forest NE next turn. Edit: Actually, in terms of safety, it would be better to go 2N this turn, I don't think seeing a few tiles more in south helps. We see Toku's culture already.
  
  EDIT: if northern exploration is paramount, I can go 1NE 1NW this turn. We sacrifice forward movement for a better position.

I'll try and put a plan together tomorrow, but TGL is some turns away so I doubt I will be able to write up the entire thing in one day.

We are likely to get another free worker (from Asoka's 2nd city) in short time and likely 1 or 2 more from his capital before it's fallen, so your micro might need changes frequently. So yes, no need for longer set plan, but you do need a thorough idea to organize the forest chop in capital.

 

[Doshin]

Some other thoughts.

The south worries me a bit, because Sheepish is not on a hill. I have no intention of killing the barbarian Warrior. That will fogbust for us. I can try to use our current Axe to farm XP from the barbarian Archer, and then promote to Shock to defend against the barbarian Axe. I think Duckweed suggested this earlier.

If we are whipping Axemen in the capital and Sheepish, there is no reason why we should lose the city though.

After City #5 is settled, the Scout's main task is, IMO, (a) to explore the grassland west of Golden Sands. I personally prefer to locate other city sites in this direction and look for AIs in the west (i.e. they won't be hiding in the Tundra).

Other options with the Scout are (b) fogbust part of the Tundra; (c) circle the barbarian city, to check that it is sealed; (d) explore the Tundra, since Silver is often located here.

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@Duckweed

The main challenge with Rice Pudding is managing and happiness. I'll aim for 4 Axemen.

Thinking out loud, it may also be useful to road from Rice Pudding directly to Constantinople, to speed things up. The road is not the best use of Worker turns, but if City #6 is by Clams/Horses, the roads will not go to waste.

 

[Duckweed]

Some other thoughts.

The south worries me a bit, because Sheepish is not on a hill. I have no intention of killing the barbarian Warrior. That will fogbust for us. I can try to use our current Axe to farm XP from the barbarian Archer, and then promote to Shock to defend against the barbarian Axe. I think Duckweed suggested this earlier.

Defending on city is not too bad since they will also get the river bonus, that's 50%~70% bonus in total. Of course, if that axe could defend on the forest 1S of the sheep to kill the barbarian axe, it's quite safe without shock. I'm thinking about sending this veteran axe to Asoka's capital.

If we are whipping Axemen in the capital and Sheepish, there is no reason why we should lose the city though.

After City #5 is settled, the Scout's main task is, IMO, (a) to explore the grassland west of Golden Sands. I personally prefer to locate other city sites in this direction and look for AIs in the west (i.e. they won't be hiding in the Tundra).

Other options with the Scout are (b) fogbust part of the Tundra; (c) circle the barbarian city, to check that it is sealed; (d) explore the Tundra, since Silver is often located here.

Scout west carefully and then guard on a desired site.
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@Duckweed

The main challenge with Rice Pudding is managing and happiness. I'll aim for 4 Axemen.

Yes, I understand that, that's why I told folket in the very 1st post that the micro of his set was how to manage the rice pudding city, it's better to sacrifice this city than capital.

Thinking out loud, it may also be useful to road from Rice Pudding directly to Constantinople, to speed things up. The road is not the best use of Worker turns, but if City #6 is by Clams/Horses, the roads will not go to waste.

I don't know, if we could steal more workers, everything would be easier.

 

[Doshin]

I don't know, if we could steal more workers, everything would be easier.

Ha. The story of Civ IV.

I'm signing off for the night. Unless kossin objects, I will try to post an initial PPP tomorrow (perhaps 5–8 turns) and play ahead a bit further in my tests, to get a general sense of how things play out.

If I can't write the PPP during the day, it will be up by 9:00 PM EST for feedback. Although I want to play well, I don't want to drag things out due to the deadline. If feedback on Tuesday is good, I could play on Wednesday, post a new PPP (5–8 turns more) and keep going.

I don't have a ton of free time, so perhaps the next player (kossin?) could take over on Sunday, unless we are at a pivotal moment.

 

[kossin]

Sorry I don't foresee enough time to put a PPP together this weekend. I'll try to provide as much feedback as I can but I've hit a snag in a project and I have to do some lab work to understand what's happening

I don't know, if we could steal more workers, everything would be easier.

That was my thought last time I looked at the save, wishing we had 2~3 more workers

 

[Folket]

We will have 2-3 more workers very soon.

I will be back this weekend so if Doshin plays a few turns I can take it back on Saturday/Sunday.

 

[Doshin]

If I can't write the PPP during the day, it will be up by 9:00 PM EST for feedback. Although I want to play well, I don't want to drag things out due to the deadline.

This was unrealistic. The turns are quite complex.

First rough efforts (not worth posting) result in:

Spoiler :

So, a 7–8 Axe stack can attack on T62, an 8–9 Axe stack on T63, or a 9–10 Axe stack on T64. The +/–1 depends on the western Axe. This leaves Sheepish undefended, so may be slower still.

I want to confirm that we are committed to the Axe rush. If, e.g., I attack with 7 Axemen on T62:

Spoiler :

4 x CR I; 1 x Woodsman II; 2x no promo.

To counter this somewhat depressing picture: Asoka will be weaker in the real game, due to more active harassment (I shall start doing this in future tests) and clearly more units are needed, even if this delays the attack date.

 

[Duckweed]

So, a 7–8 Axe stack can attack on T62, an 8–9 Axe stack on T63, or a 9–10 Axe stack on T64. The +/–1 depends on the western Axe.

Which western Axe? I would not count on the scouting axe.

I prefer to attack in safer way(~T65 is fine), which allows our empire in better shape as well. (no need to delay the GS).

If necessary, you could chop a forest in sheepish to speed up.

Edit: The road network could be improved through the grassland forest SW of the marble.

What's the order of your axes come from?

 

[Doshin]

Yes. The road network is very bad in the last test. In general, I am not yet clear about Worker micro in the south.

A new test, and I'm turning in for the night (early start tomorrow):

T58 SOD:

Spoiler :

T62:

Spoiler :

4 x Axes from Case Depart
3 x Axes from Rice Pudding (on T59 or T60, a fourth heads NW)
1 x Axe from Sheepish
1 x Axe from Sheepish (Axe = the one that is already built)
1 x WII Axe

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• The capital also produces a Settler. It is whipped twice.
  
• Rice Pudding also produces a Barracks and Archer. This is whipped twice. (I think). EDIT: oh, I 3–pop whip a Library ~T60.
  
• Sheepish produces a Monument, Axe, and then an Archer. It is whipped twice.

I am not keen, but if we delay the Monument in Sheepish we could have another Axe instead of the Archer.

I don't like the fact that I am whipping the capital twice, but it is hard to slow build units here. I suppose that a ~T65 attack date would avoid this.

It is a shame that the low food tiles in the city are all high in hammers. This makes it hard to 2–pop whip Axemen.

In future tests, I plan to cottage a Plains > Grassland, because now is an ideal time to work it (hammers boosted in Settler builds; the city has too much food and too few hammers).

I deleted Asoka's third city and, although I captured ~4 Workers, I only kept the one I captured on T56. Asoka is much weaker for this.

Will think more in the morning.

 

[Duckweed]

Looks pretty good of the latest test.

How's the barbarian behavior?

You could stop working the Corn tile in capital some time. For instance, on T58 test, takes FP from Rice pudding. This also increases the beaker output.

Another thing is that we need to preroad and prechop some forests in capital. We don't want to cram too many workers in capital for TGL chop, maximum 3. Less worker in sheepish since the improvement in that city is not that safe before we can spare at least an axe.

 

[kossin]

With soundjata on board, we only need 3 Axes.

The T62 test looks good. Extra workers are welcome of course, and those could be used for chopping duties in prevision of TGL.

 

[Doshin]

Looks pretty good of the latest test.

How's the barbarian behavior?

I need to check barbarian behavior and safety. Because this was an early test, I focused on city/Worker/unit micro. I'll incorporate barbarians into the next test.

If barbs prove to be aggressive, we'll need to play safer and delay the attack.

You could stop working the Corn tile in capital some time. For instance, on T58 test, takes FP from Rice pudding. This also increases the beaker output.

There were a few turns when I stopped working the Corn when slow-building Axemen (note that the Cottage 1SW has been worked for four turns). After we have a GS and have whipped away our Scientists, it becomes especially hard to manage growth. The capital does, however, work the FPs pretty consistently after the Academy is built.

If Rice Pudding ever borrows the FP, we can also consider lowering the science slider for a turn (as I did, once, in the last test).

Another thing is that we need to preroad and prechop some forests in capital. We don't want to cram too many workers in capital for TGL chop, maximum 3. Less worker in sheepish since the improvement in that city is not that safe before we can spare at least an axe.

Great points. I had neglected this in my test, and we should have more free Workers from Asoka, as kossin notes.

There is a period ~T58 where we begin to have free Worker turns. All our cities are working improved tiles, and are unlikely to grow much further due to whipping. I will begin to road and pre-chop then.

With soundjata on board, we only need 3 Axes.

I've attacked twice with the 10-unit stack. In one test, a super-hero Archer killed 3 Axemen. Will work hard at improving my RNG.

 

[Doshin]

Thinking ahead (I cannot test right now) I will also see whether I can consistently lure one of Asoka's Archers out of his capital:

Spoiler :

If, on the turn that our SOD is on the Grassland Hill, we move an unguarded Worker onto Asoka's desert hill, there is a good chance that Asoka will move an Archer to capture this. This is why the WII Axe is injured in my second screenshot: he'd attacked an Archer on the FPs.

A battle on flatland with the Woodsman II Axe vs. an Archer offers ~95% odds. So it is very likely that we will destroy the Archer. If the Axe is badly injured, Asoka could retaliate and we'd lose an Axe at a 1:1 ratio, which is still better than the odds of attacking the city directly. The second Archer might receive a promotion as a result, but it would also be injured, and it would lose any fortification bonus from moving.

If the Axe is not badly injured, Asoka will not retaliate (already tested).