SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

[pomthom]

Oh ok fair enough. Do you feel like filling in for today then Duckweed?

 

[Duckweed]

I could do it tonight if others don't volunteer. There's no RNG involved.

Edit: Could do a bit change of diplomacy

Since we will convert to Bud and gain the shared religion bonus with Asoka, no need to gift him Alpha.

The trade with Asoka on T63 would be Alpha <-> Mono + PH
T64 we can trade Monarchy from KK and then IW from Asoka
Less risk that Asoka trade away Currency.

 

[Doshin]

I won't be able to play for 3-5 days, but can post and offer feedback. The next few turns should, however, be much easier. We can plan for TGL, but only approximately at this point, since we lack easy access to Mathematics.

I forgot to upload the most recent test before handing over my laptop. Sorry for that. The test detailing the attack on Constantinople is not accurate, but it was up until T58 or so. It could probably be 'reverse engineered' if you add or delete resource tiles/pop/whatever for a turn, to make everything accurate on T63/4.

 

[Doshin]

One thing to be considered is to prepare to resume the war with Asoka again. We can DOW anytime after the trade from next turn. The determinative factors are to gather enough healthy axes and how's Asoka's wandering archers move next.

The Cow will have a Pasture now, so you should be able to catch Asoka's Workers roading towards (or improving) the Rice.

We'll have to see where his Archers move. I don't really want these to camp in our territory.

Attacking Thessalonica could coincide with a barb attack. Otherwise, it will be easier to capture, due to the lower culture %. Asoka has at least two Archers there, besides the two close to Constantinople. We only have 5-6 Axemen left in the south, though.

It would be good to capture this before it hits 500 and we lose the Ivory.

 

[Duckweed]

I won't be able to play for 3-5 days, but can post and offer feedback. The next few turns should, however, be much easier. We can plan for TGL, but only approximately at this point, since we lack easy access to Mathematics.

I forgot to upload the most recent test before handing over my laptop. Sorry for that. The test detailing the attack on Constantinople is not accurate, but it was up until T58 or so. It could probably be 'reverse engineered' if you add or delete resource tiles/pop/whatever for a turn, to make everything accurate on T63/4.

It's fine without the test game since it's not too complicate for the next few turns. I'll play the game slowly and record the micro until you come back to update the test game.

Just some issues to be clear:

Besides my post of #622 of diplomatic changes,

Do you want to settle the Horse/clam site as soon as possible, or delay it and ensure that capital does not lose good tiles by whipping? Because our economy is hitting the red line now, I'd prefer economical advantage than earlier new city. Therefore, I'm going to switch the build in capital to Market next turn to let it grow and do the whip at size 8.

 

[Doshin]

Do you want to settle the Horse/clam site as soon as possible, or delay it and ensure that capital does not lose good tiles by whipping? Because our economy is hitting the red line now, I'd prefer economical advantage than earlier new city. Therefore, I'm going to switch the build in capital to Market next turn to let it grow and do the whip at size 8.

Yes, I prefer development in the capital too. We can grow to size 8 and whip when we are ready.

I would also think about whip OF here. If the Settler is whipped into a Market which is itself whipped (or vice versa) we can theoretically generate anywhere between 200-300H OF for TGL. This will be the quickest way to build it, if we lack Math.

We will gain 2-4 here in the next 8 turns, even before Monarchy.

I agree with the proposed diplo changes.

 

[pomthom]

It's fine without the test game since it's not too complicate for the next few turns. I'll play the game slowly and record the micro until you come back to update the test game.

Just some issues to be clear:

Besides my post of #622 of diplomatic changes,

Do you want to settle the Horse/clam site as soon as possible, or delay it and ensure that capital does not lose good tiles by whipping? Because our economy is hitting the red line now, I'd prefer economical advantage than earlier new city. Therefore, I'm going to switch the build in capital to Market next turn to let it grow and do the whip at size 8.

Yes, I prefer development in the capital too. We can grow to size 8 and whip when we are ready.

I would also think about whip OF here. If the Settler is whipped into a Market which is itself whipped (or vice versa) we can theoretically generate anywhere between 200-300H OF for TGL. This will be the quickest way to build it, if we lack Math.

We will gain 2-4 here in the next 8 turns, even before Monarchy.

I agree with the proposed diplo changes.

I agree 100% about our economy entering borderline territory, a bit of infra will be nice.

The OF trick could be an alternative to mathless chops, although it might be good not to delay the Market too much (not sure how the timing would work).

Also fine with diplo changes.


It's not a priority but what do you think about my suggestion of Parthenon in Constantinople? Regardless of the Parth, it will be nice to prechop forests around Constantinople to dump it in some wonders (MoM, Taj, AP/UoS?, HE??)

 

[Doshin]

The OF trick could be an alternative to mathless chops, although it might be good not to delay the Market too much (not sure how the timing would work).

We will run a 100% slider to reach Lit. So if the Market is whipped into TGL (and I am not saying that it will be) then it would complete on the first turn that it will be of use.

It's not a priority but what do you think about my suggestion of Parthenon in Constantinople? Regardless of the Parth, it will be nice to prechop forests around Constantinople to dump it in some wonders (MoM, Taj, AP/UoS?, HE??)

Personally, I value the Parthenon only when we have multiple cities generating GP. It is a very expensive wonder, and the +50% boost is not that significant in the HE city when you realize that great people can be boosted by 300% in a Golden Age with Pacifism/Caste. We can also run Caste/Pacifism AFTER we have captured the Parthenon, and make up the points then.

The Taj is a high priority target for me.

MoM is always a difficult choice. On a Lakes map it can usually be captured, although getting it early enough can be the tough part.

I have thought about building the ToA in Constantinople. I don't think that we want to build it, but IDK... We only need two GSs for Education and Liberalism, and if we spread Buddhism around a GProphet would be useful. A GMerchant is needed for Sushi, obv.

On the whole I would not build it, unless the benefits of a shrine can be proven. And I think the GProphet will arrive too late.

 

[Duckweed]

Whipping both settler and Market into TGL is almost impossible since market is very expensive (4~5 pop). I'm thinking about chopping a missionary and send it as soon as possible to capital for the OR bonus. That needs 1 or 2 captured workers as soon as possible.

One thing that you might not notice is that we are quite short of WORKERS! especially for this period when we need a lot of chops.

About Parth, I'm undecided for the moment, but definitely worth of investing some hammers at least for failed cash.

 

[Doshin]

Whipping both settler and Market into TGL is almost impossible since market is very expensive (4~5 pop). I'm thinking about chopping a missionary and send it as soon as possible to capital for the OR bonus. That needs 1 or 2 captured workers as soon as possible.

The OR bonus is well worthwhile. The Missionary will also add +1 in the capital.

Timing will, however, be tricky given that Constantinople needs a Granary.

Hopefully we'll get some natural religion spread soon as well.

One thing that you might not notice is that we are quite short of WORKERS! especially for this period when we need a lot of chops.

What do you expect? We've only built 1 Worker throughout the entire game. For 6 cities.

I agree, in any case. Cities will grow once Monarchy is in; chops are improved; and we are about to gain a lot of food (Corn/Cow; Sheep; Constantinople). Plus, we have less need to whip emergency units.

---

On the wonder front, we also have quite a bit of time, I think. The AI has not yet built the Pyramids, ToA, or GLH (although the GLH will only be available to a few).

 

[Duckweed]

Start playing.

To T64 and got all the techs as planned.

Spoiler :

South part of our empire and Asoka's forces.

Spoiler :

North part of our empire, we have an Iron resource on our future HE city.

Spoiler :

Exploration on the west, Will keep heading to SW direction.

Spoiler :

The questions next are

Do we want to switch to HR + OR this turn?
Worker movement, I need a bit time to think.
Edit:
North new city will keep 2 workers or 1 workers (depends on whether we want to work on Corn as soon as possible)?
1 Worker in Golden goes to chop forests in capital?
1 worker to improve the Iron
The worker in capital keep prechopping
2 workers in Sheepish finish pasture next turn then go back to capital to chop.
The worker in Const will do some prechop.

 

[Doshin]

Nice work. We just need Mathematics now.

The questions next are

Do we want to switch to HR + OR this turn?

When do you want to build Case Depart's Settler?

It would be good to switch into HR and OR before Constantinople leaves revolt, but after the Settler has been built, as it can start heading towards the Horse/Clams.

However, I don't know whether the timing will work out with Worker improvements.

EDIT: will you send the Archer in Case Depart to Amsterdam? That had been my intention, but keeping it 1S of the city to fogbust the Marble and Grassland.

 

[Duckweed]

I usually think the civic switch would be the earlier, the better. Simply because our empire has less production due to small population. Even better for now, capital has 1 unhappy citizen, Sheepish can work on pastured sheep next turn, and as you mentioned, Cons is in revolt.

Regarding the settler, as I mentioned before, size 8. but not sure now if we want OF to TGL. An alternative trick is still whip at size8 with maximum OF and then build wealth for a few turns to keep the OF.

 

[Doshin]

Actually, switching into Monarchy means we can continue to grow the capital another pop. So the switch will depend on the Worker micro.

 

[Duckweed]

EDIT: will you send the Archer in Case Depart to Amsterdam? That had been my intention, but keeping it 1S of the city to fogbust the Marble and Grassland.

I send all available archers to capital instead. If you look at carefully at Golden sand, you can see that the heroic archer is not there.

I would not bother with the marble site, no food. We have lots of choices westbound.

 

[Doshin]

Edit:
North new city will keep 2 workers or 1 workers (depends on whether we want to work on Corn as soon as possible)?

Have you read my micro for city 5?

1 Worker in Golden goes to chop forests in capital?

Sounds ok. How are you roading to Horse/Clam?

1 worker to improve the Iron
The worker in capital keep prechopping
2 workers in Sheepish finish pasture next turn then go back to capital to chop.
The worker in Const will do some prechop.

All sounds fine in theory.

For Sheepish, you could consider leaving 1 Worker behind? The Floodplains would be good for a Cottage, and the tile 1W of Sheepish is halfway improved.

 

[Doshin]

I send all available archers to capital instead. If you look at carefully at Golden sand, you can see that the heroic archer is not there.

I would not bother with the marble site, no food. We have lots of choices westbound.

No, I don't intend to settle the Marble. I am only worried about a barbarian spawning and pillaging roads.

I sadly suffer from PBSB (Post-barb-stress-syndrome) these days.

 

[kossin]

The questions next are

Do we want to switch to HR + OR this turn? Yes, makes most sense.
Worker movement, I need a bit time to think.
Edit:
North new city will keep 2 workers or 1 workers (depends on whether we want to work on Corn as soon as possible)?
1 Worker in Golden goes to chop forests in capital?
1 worker to improve the Iron
The worker in capital keep prechopping
2 workers in Sheepish finish pasture next turn then go back to capital to chop.
The worker in Const will do some prechop.
Difficult for me to comment on general micro situation so I won't and trust you guys with it.

Nice work!

 

[kossin]

No, I don't intend to settle the Marble. I am only worried about a barbarian spawning and pillaging roads.

I sadly suffer from PBSB (Post-barb-stress-syndrome) these days.

Barbarians do not pillage neutral tiles. At least, I've never ever seen it... they'll use them though.

 

[Duckweed]

Have you read my micro for city 5?

The reason why I am hesitating to leave more worker is that I'm a bit worry about the worker shortage in capital, we will have Lit on T69, if we are waiting for a missionary from Cons, then T70 we should finish the chopping on unroaded tiles, which means at least 3 workers there on T67. For the moment we only has 1 worker there just completing 1 tile prechop.

Sounds ok. How are you roading to Horse/Clam?

Let the workers in Cons do the job and the settler will also go through south route.

For Sheepish, you could consider leaving 1 Worker behind? The Floodplains would be good for a Cottage, and the tile 1W of Sheepish is halfway improved.

Yes, but I'm expecting a free worker from the Rice tile soon.