SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

[Doshin]

Asoka produced 8 Workers, of which 6 came from his original capital. I don't think Thessalonica will be too hard on our empire either: the Cow is already improved, we can whip a Monument (and will have to whip a Granary if one is lacking) and the city already has an improved, first-ring resource. Lake tiles are also ok to work at size 2, if we have to.

That being said, I am not sure how many Axemen to withdraw from Constantinople. Possibly two? (the CR III and Medic I?).

He only has one Archer in the city at the moment. You never know, we might get lucky. I hope that we can steal his final Worker before he disappears entirely.

Test file updated to T62.

 

[Duckweed]

Asoka produced 8 Workers, of which 6 came from his original capital. I don't think Thessalonica will be too hard on our empire either: the Cow is already improved, we can whip a Monument (and will have to whip a Granary if one is lacking) and the city already has an improved, first-ring resource. Lake tiles are also ok to work at size 2, if we have to.

It has religion to pop the border.

That being said, I am not sure how many Axemen to withdraw from Constantinople. Possibly two? (the CR III and Medic I?).

Yes, we can only send 2 axes from Constantinople at the moment since there's one Asoka's archer nearby. The medic axe is not in full health, so the 2 level 4 Axes could go this turn.

He only has one Archer in the city at the moment. You never know, we might get lucky. I hope that we can steal his final Worker before he disappears entirely.

Our current force could deal with 3 archers if not too lucky. The CRIII axe needs to win the 1st battle though(odd ~85%?). Maybe barbarians could help a bit?

Test file updated to T62.

Will update test tonight.

 

[Doshin]

Will Asoka definitely move the Archer 1S of Constantinople back to his capital? That is the only reason I am reluctant to leave the wounded Medic Axeman on his own. Asoka's Archer will receive ~13% odds if it attacks.

 

[Duckweed]

I have not seen AI's wandering archer attacking with lower odd. They don't target a fallen city. Moreover, the defense in his city is unsafe, which increases it's chance of heading back.

 

[Doshin]

Playing on from my test file, a very quick test shows that if Buddhism spreads to the capital on T71 (the earliest it can with a Missionary) we can build TGL on T71/2.

If we have Mathematics, it should be possible to build the National Epic ~T73. If we don't, then there will be an approximate 5 turn delay.

I am not sure to value the earlier against the loss of ~80H (base). I would be more comfortable with chopping like this if we didn't have another big build (the National Epic) immediately after, or if we were under heavy pressure to build the wonder ASAP.

Edit: sorry, my numbers were out by one. I've corrected them. A picture of a pre-Math run:

Spoiler :

 

[Duckweed]

Test file updated.

Food, production, and beakers are all right. On map, I only updated the tiles newly discovered by the scout since there's a good site with Pig and Wheat near the Golden sand, and the tiles around the wine/Ivory site as well.

Besides TGL and NE, another important goal next is to research CoL as fast as possible. Ways to achieve this include maximizing hammers invested to TGL and NE in Rice Pudding and building wealth in cities. For instance, gold sand can start building wealth after having 30H on Lib, maybe Capital can also build wealth in this turn.

 

[Doshin]

No Mathematics Run

Settler whipped on T67. The capital then builds Wealth:

Spoiler :

Literature on T68:

Spoiler :

The earlier Literature is achieved by having Rice Pudding work both Lakes, for the food and commerce:

Spoiler :

Working food tiles delays the Archer and adds more food, so that we can work tiles once Literature is in:

The Great Library will be built on T71/2:

Spoiler :

The National Epic on T74/5:

Spoiler :

I guess that it depends on whether we capture Asoka's last city, but Code of Laws should be expected ~T77:

Spoiler :

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I haven't carefully tested much outside of the capital.

 

[Duckweed]

T77 CoL is good, we might also gain some cash from capturing and more AIs.

Could you whip an archer in Rice pudding to have some OF to TGL?

If we are only a few beakers short to get Lit 1 turn earlier we could build wealth in some city to speedup if that working on hammer tiles in Rice pudding allows more OF to TGL.

You could start Granary in Const on T67, 2 workers chop 2 forests to Missionary on T68 and then whip granary on T69.

Edit: Did you chop in Rice pudding?

I'd like the horse site 1NE of the Corn, which shares more tile with Const. Less monopoly tiles, but the city usually won't grow too big.

 

[Doshin]

T77 CoL is good, we might also gain some cash from capturing and more AIs.

Could you whip an archer in Rice pudding to have some OF to TGL?

I could, but I think it's probably counter-productive. The Archer has 22/25H already, so a whip loses 3H. We gain 25H of OF (= 50 Gold), but the city can work one less tile, so loses 3HPT and 1CPT as a result.

In the short-term, the OF would generate more gold. But given that the city will soon receive the Heroic Epic, and it takes a long time to grow past size 6, I am a little reluctant to whip. I also don't think we need the gold.

You could start Granary in Const on T67, 2 workers chop 2 forests to Missionary on T68 and then whip granary on T69.

Yes, good suggestion.

Edit: Did you chop in Rice pudding?

No. I am not sure whether I have the Worker turns free. Perhaps with some changes.

I'd like the horse site 1NE of the Corn, which shares more tile with Const. Less monopoly tiles, but the city usually won't grow too big.

Sure. They are only Plains tiles.

If we don't trade for Mathematics, it is quite difficult to have this city build a Granary, as it can work a 6/5F tile @ size 1 and only generate 1HPT.

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Anyway, T76 Code of Laws is also possible with a few small changes:

Spoiler :

I don't think a T75 COL is possible with building the NE and TGL. Perhaps if we whip an Archer in Rice Pudding, chop the Forest 1SE as well, and trade for some gold.

I'll write a PPP tomorrow.

 

[Doshin]

Yes, we can get a T75 Code of Laws if we chop the Forest 1SE of Rice Pudding into TGL for fail gold:

Spoiler :

I think there's some room to spare? I'll test again tomorrow. If we meet the Oracle AI, I think it should be discounted even further.

Constantinople's micro needs to be reworked, to generate more Missionaries after the first. All of our other cities need a religion, and will soon benefit from the 25% hammer boost (= CHs).

Sheepish looks like the best candidate to eventually produce the Settler for the Pig/Wheat site.

 

[Duckweed]

Constantinople's micro needs to be reworked, to generate more Missionaries after the first. All of our other cities need a religion, and will soon benefit from the 25% hammer boost (= CHs).

+1

Sheepish looks like the best candidate to eventually produce the Settler for the Pig/Wheat site.

Not sure which site should be our 9th city. If we are fast enough, we might be able to grab the stone/Rice/Ivory/Dye/Clam site.

It's not necessary to complete the CoL in the earliest date possible, we only need it available when a distant city can whip it next turn. That says, if Constantinople has size 5 and can grow to size 6 next turn. Or a city of size 4 with religion and a 30H forest chop. City like golden sand grows too slow, we might want to save the pops for CH whip?

 

[pomthom]

I mostly agree with everything I'm reading, I should be able to chip in a couple of test runs this weekend once you post a PPP (for the sake of comparison)

 

[Doshin]

It's not necessary to complete the CoL in the earliest date possible, we only need it available when a distant city can whip it next turn.

Yep. And I think T75 is unnecessarily quick.

That says, if Constantinople has size 5 and can grow to size 6 next turn. Or a city of size 4 with religion and a 30H forest chop. City like golden sand grows too slow, we might want to save the pops for CH whip?

Sheepish is the only city whose growth seems to exceed its usefulness, but even this continually works improved tiles. Constantinople needs a ton of infrastructure and can whip Missionaries. Cornish Cow (City #5) is also new, and lacks buildings.

For Golden Sands, we can stop building the Library at 32/90H and focus on Wealth. However, I would like to try and continue building the Library. If it is T65 now, with 28/90H, and on T66 it has 29/90H, by the time CoLs rolls around (let's say ~T76) the city will have just grown to size 4, and could have 69/90H.

Since we will only have one Worker improving this city, and a CH > Library (after CoL, we cannot run the slider for a while), it would be good to chop/whip a Courthouse and then finish the Library with the OF and Gold hammers. If we stop building the Library, then we are faced with an either/or situation. Either we build the Courthouse, or build the Library.

I mostly agree with everything I'm reading, I should be able to chip in a couple of test runs this weekend once you post a PPP (for the sake of comparison)

Sure. More importantly, someone needs to take over from me soon, so if you are testing, you will be familiar with the micro issues and able to take over fairly easily.

I don't mean to volunteer you as the next player, O Captain. But I think you said that your availability is fairly consistent from now until the end of the game, and neither soundjata nor kossin are currently available.

 

[Doshin]

PPP to T70

Spoiler :

T65

Case Départ. Move Warrior 2SW.
2 Axemen ---> Asoka.
Worker on Cow (Amsterdam) ----> Forest. Chop (2/3) and cancel.
FP Worker (Constant). Move 2NW. Chop (1/3).
Cancel Worker 2SE of Case Départ.

Rice Pudding. Change GH to Lake.

T66

Axemen move to Thessalonica.
WII Axe. Move 1NE then 1SE?

Thess. Worker. Move into Constantinople.
Sheepish Workers. Move into Sheepish.

Worker 5 (2SE of CD). Move 2N3W.
Worker 2 (at Amsterdam). Move to Corn. Farm (3/5).

Cancel Worker on Silk.
Cancel Worker 1NW of Constantinople.

Case Départ. Build Settler. Change GF to Silk.
Golden Sands. Change Lake to Gold.

T67

Workers by Constantinople (x2). Move to 1W of Const. Chop (2/3).
Workers by Sheepish (x2). Separate, and move both to Forests by CD.
Worker 1W of CD. Chop (1/3).
Silk Worker. Move 1W.

Case Départ. Whip Settler.
Constantinople. Build Granary.
Cornish Cow. Work Corn.

T68

Literature in. Start CoLs.

Rice Pudding. Archer completes. Start TGL. Maximize hammers.
Archer moves to Case Départ.

3 Workers around CD begin chopping.
Settler in CD. Move towards Horse site (watch out for barbarians).

Amsterdam. 2 Workers move 1S of the city. Cottage (2/4) and cancel.
Constantinople. 2 Forest chops go into Missionary.

Case Départ. Build Wealth. Change Marble to Grassland Cottage.
Constantinople. Change PH to Grassland Farm.

T69

Science at 0%.

Constantinople. 2 Workers go 1SE. Cottage the FPs (2/5). Cancel 1 Worker.
Missionary goes to C.D. (watch out for Barbarians).

Cornish Cow. 1 Worker Cottages (3/4) and cancels.
1 Worker moves 2SE of Gold.

Archer in CD. Move to Sheepish.

Worker on Iron. Move 1SW.

Sheepish. Change PH to FPs.
Constantinople. Whip Granary. Work Ivory, Rice.

T70

Constantinople. Builds Granary. OF to Missionary. Change Rice/Ivory to Corn/Pigs.

Settler. Move to new city spot.

(?) Worker on FPs. Move to 1N2E of Constantinople.

Worker 1S of Cornish Cow. Chop (3/3) into Granary.
Worker 1N of Rice Pudding. Move 2S1E. Chop (3/3) in TGL, for OF.
Worker 2SE of Gold. Move 1W of Golden Sands.
Worker 1W of Case Départ. Move 1N. Chop (3/3).

----

T70 overview:

Spoiler :

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T71 cities:

Spoiler :

 

[Duckweed]

The workers in Const could either do 1 more chop to finish the missionary, or together finish the FP, a bit early to chop the forest for horse city even having Math.

Could you let Sheepish grow faster and whip the lib earlier? We could also dump the OF to NE in this city.

You could play 1 turn to see if we could capture the worker next turn since it might affect your worker micro a bit. Depends on the barbarian behavior, the worker might move 1S and then go back the city or stay in place if the barbarian archer moves 1NW. In the latter case, our WoodmanII axe could capture it next turn.

The rest looks good.

 

[Doshin]

The workers in Const could either do 1 more chop to finish the missionary, or together finish the FP, a bit early to chop the forest for horse city even having Math.

No need to speed the FP any sooner. It won't be worked.

With Math or a lucky religious spread, the chop is still 1-2 turns sooner than needed, you are right. I can look into chopping the roaded Forest 1S2E of Constantinople. I won't test now, since things will change depending on how the real game proceeds.

My plan was to 1-pop whip a Buddhist Missionary on T75:

Spoiler :

If this has +1H (work a Grass Forest > Lake on T67) I can produce a Missionary on T76 and T77.

We have some flexibility with the chopping (nothing would change until T69, at the earliest). Let's hope that we get Mathematics in the meantime.

Could you let Sheepish grow faster and whip the lib earlier? We could also dump the OF to NE in this city.

Sheepish cannot grow to size 6 any faster. I do, however, work a PH on T68 > a FP.

If I work the FPs for additional food, I can 3-pop whip Sheepish on T70 with instant regrowth:

Spoiler :

I like this, on the whole.

You could play 1 turn to see if we could capture the worker next turn since it might affect your worker micro a bit. Depends on the barbarian behavior, the worker might move 1S and then go back the city or stay in place if the barbarian archer moves 1NW. In the latter case, our WoodmanII axe could capture it next turn.

The rest looks good.

Sure. Mathematics and chance religious spreads will also affect the micro.

I'll resume a turn shortly (after hearing from one more person re. a Toku gift), and adapt where applicable.

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Do you (first responder ) want to gift Monarchy or Currency to Tokugawa, and open borders? Or no?

I would gift Monarchy.

My only worry, that this will give Kublai one less tech to trade with Toku, is beyond our control (he can still trade Currency).

 

[Duckweed]

It'll be better to get missionary out faster with one more chop, Rice pudding could use it any time sooner.

OK to gift Monarchy to Toku, it's a headache if he try to get LB next, but we can't do much before having WEs + Cats, his tech rate is pretty good anyway.

soundjata.

 

[kossin]

Support ^.
Monarchy is typically high priority for AI regardless.

 

[Doshin]

Gifted Monarchy, Toku is finally Pleased, and we have Open Borders.

T66:

Spoiler :

Hopefully the barb Warrior won't give Asoka a free promotion.

 

[Doshin]

Southern barbs, besides the Warrior:

Spoiler :

The northern Axe didn't reveal much of interest to us. Kublai is sending two Hindu Missionaries in a SW direction, though.

EDIT: should the Scout move south? I am not sure where the LB has moved.