SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

Attached test game for Dye Hard if someone wants to have a go at it.

Don't pay attention to the other cities, they're off (especially Constantinople).

The buddhist missionary intented for Dye Hard is the one from Sheepish.
 

Attachments

To take with a handful of grains of salt:

Maybe I'm reading the game wrong - wouldn't surprise me at all given my participation - but the mass expansion seems to be killing tech rate; which, imo, seems to be the opposite of what we'd really need to get to Democracy+Corporations quickly.

We don't have GLH economy, we're not Organized and we don't have intercontinental traderoutes.
 
To take with a handful of grains of salt:

Maybe I'm reading the game wrong - wouldn't surprise me at all given my participation - but the mass expansion seems to be killing tech rate; which, imo, seems to be the opposite of what we'd really need to get to Democracy+Corporations quickly.

We don't have GLH economy, we're not Organized and we don't have intercontinental traderoutes.

With Currency and CoL, there's no barrier for unlimited expansion. Our economy are recovering with prioritizing CHs everywhere and growing cities with more cottages being worked. Moreover, our tech progress is stopped by Math. Any suggestion on this?
 
OK here's what I got for the Dye Hard micro:

Turn City size City micro Food Bin Food cap Food Surplus Build Granary build Raw Prd Whip? Worker 1 Worker 2
79 1 Un. Phants 0 22 1 Granary 3 Move to Phants (1/4) Move to Phants (2/4)
80 1 Phants 1 22 1 Granary 3 4 Phants (3/4) Phants (4/4)
81 1 Phants 2 22 1 Granary 7 4 Move to Rice (1/5) Move to Rice (2/5)
82 1 Phants 3 22 1 Granary 11 4 Rice (3/5) Rice (4/5)
83 1 Rice 4 22 5 Granary 15 1 Rice (5/5)
84 1 Rice 9 22 5 Granary 16 1 (BUDDHISM)
85 1 Rice 14 22 5 Granary 17 1
86 1 Rice 19 22 5 Granary 18 1
87 2 Rice + Phants 2 24 4 Granary 19 4
88 1 Rice 6 22 5 Granary 24 1 1-pop


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To take with a handful of grains of salt:

Maybe I'm reading the game wrong - wouldn't surprise me at all given my participation - but the mass expansion seems to be killing tech rate; which, imo, seems to be the opposite of what we'd really need to get to Democracy+Corporations quickly.

We don't have GLH economy, we're not Organized and we don't have intercontinental traderoutes.
Well we're at the moment in the game where our tech rate will suffer the most, maybe more than I realize. But ideally a "tech game" wants a maximum number of cities settled/captured as soon as possible right? We take the risk of over expanding but isn't that the risk we have to take to beat the other teams?

We might be too much in the red zone :dunno: but expanding cautiously won't bring us the gold laurels IMO
 
Dye Hard looks good to me. :) It is a turn quicker than my theorizing.

I generally like to expand quickly, perhaps to a fault, but as long as a city has at least one food tile (ideally 5F+) and grassland tiles (to Cottage) or a commerce resource (to work), these soon pay back with Currency and CoLs. Riverside cities are better, naturally. Moreover, unlike the last SGOTM, we are not warring with large siege stacks, and have captured many more Workers to improve cities (one of our big two mistakes in the last game; the other being that we attacked Mansa).

In five turns, with Courthouses in most cities, we could also just build Wealth if we wanted to.

I don't think we need to REX much further, in any case. I count Pigs/Wheat, and (eventually) the Silver as the only suitable future sites that we can see.

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@all

After Dye/Stone has been improved, do you think it is worth sending a Worker to the Floodplains region and road towards Kublai Khan? I think Tokugawa will settle in this direction with his Settler.

Kublai should be connected to HC and/or Alex soon.
 
Warning: don't take any of this seriously or personal. Especially since we've already done the settling.
Lessons from past games indicated to me that our turns 50~100 were our Achilles' heel so I'm just trying to see around the corner.


With Currency and CoL, there's no barrier for unlimited expansion. Our economy are recovering with prioritizing CHs everywhere and growing cities with more cottages being worked. Moreover, our tech progress is stopped by Math. Any suggestion on this?

Yes, there is no barrier, but it's not optimal to ICS either. Not that we're doing that but we have a few too many cities I believe.

For instance, that Asoka city which you said could build wealth to pay for itself... well, it'll be a drain for a good ~20 turns, then it can build wealth to slowly pay for the drain and finally break even in ~40 turns.

Let's get a spy to Tokugawa ASAP, if we still can't trade Math, let's steal it. My earlier suggestion for tech was Metal Casting for Forges.
Alternatively, Theology>Paper>Education like Kakumeika did last game, even if Theology is redundant, we could use it for army purposes.

Well we're at the moment in the game where our tech rate will suffer the most, maybe more than I realize. But ideally a "tech game" wants a maximum number of cities settled/captured as soon as possible right? We take the risk of over expanding but isn't that the risk we have to take to beat the other teams?

We might be too much in the red zone :dunno: but expanding cautiously won't bring us the gold laurels IMO

The HoF power tech games capture cities mainly. The Snaaty game we looked at last SGOTM did mostly capturing.

Last game was the same for TSR, most of their expansion was very late to coincide with SP. Kakumeika which were ahead most of the early game captured most cities.
Spoiler :
sgotm_graph_2.php

sgotm_graph_2.php


PD went almost bankrupt and fell behind tremendously. By turn 130, PD was at about half the beakers of other leaders. That's not simply due to GPP and trades as we hadn't invaded MM yet.
Spoiler :
kh85.png


SGOTM16, with GLH and intercontinental cities. 9 cities +55 gpt
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0149.jpg


In five turns, with Courthouses in most cities, we could also just build Wealth if we wanted to.

CH will provide maybe 15 gpt. Build Wealth? Can't wait to see that when we have so much to build :lol: Right now we may not seem like we have much to build but once Forges are available, War Elephants, Catapults... where does the wealth come from?
Best source of gold is from failed wonders, of course.

Rice Pudding is at the wrong edge of the empire, it takes 10 turns for a unit there to get to Tokugawa's first city. We can't count on HE city to do everything, or even a lot in a reasonable amount of time before Longbows become rampant.

~~~

This isn't spaceship game, we should look to win by 1000~1100 AD going broke as we finish capturing the last few resources from the AIs.

Of course there's the damning possibility of resources stuck in that barb city which is why I asked if we could teleport into barb land when we found it [we can't] -- another Paratrooper game if this is the case :deadhorse:

Sorry if I offended anyone, not my intention :(
I get grumpy when all I get to do is work...
 
I see what you mean but not all your comparisons are fair, for instance PD went broke in SG18 but you had a big shortage of Workers which is not the case here (although we could use more :lol:).

If our economy can't take an Elepult War, then we'll just wait for Cuirs... no?
 


Yes, there is no barrier, but it's not optimal to ICS either. Not that we're doing that but we have a few too many cities I believe.

For instance, that Asoka city which you said could build wealth to pay for itself... well, it'll be a drain for a good ~20 turns, then it can build wealth to slowly pay for the drain and finally break even in ~40 turns.

I have not counted how much of the new city cost us now, I guess it would be like ~10g from the city and civic for the 10th city. In the same time, we gain 2C from trade route plus 1C from city center. We lose 7C at size 1 without building wealth, or 6C with building wealth. The Pig/Wheat site might be able to have granary + CH in less than 20 turns. That's a net loss of ~140C. In fact, not that much when the city grow to 3+ and starts to work on cottage and lake tile. This stage is the most difficult period since cities are still short of CHs and are too small to work on enough cottages, the situation will be much better ~10 turns later.

CH will provide maybe 15 gpt. Build Wealth? Can't wait to see that when we have so much to build :lol: Right now we may not seem like we have much to build but once Forges are available, War Elephants, Catapults... where does the wealth come from?

The gain from CHs on the screen is not too much, but it scales with the city size. Cottages are the more important resource of commerce and this can only come from more and big cities.


Best source of gold is from failed wonders, of course.

Rice Pudding is at the wrong edge of the empire, it takes 10 turns for a unit there to get to Tokugawa's first city. We can't count on HE city to do everything, or even a lot in a reasonable amount of time before Longbows become rampant.

As I said, I did not count the war with Catas + WEs is a sure path, simply due to unfavorable diplomatic environment.

This isn't spaceship game, we should look to win by 1000~1100 AD going broke as we finish capturing the last few resources from the AIs.

Let's get a spy to Tokugawa ASAP, if we still can't trade Math, let's steal it. My earlier suggestion for tech was Metal Casting for Forges.
Alternatively, Theology>Paper>Education like Kakumeika did last game, even if Theology is redundant, we could use it for army purposes.


I'd rather research Math than via Theology, cities still need quite a few turns to be ready for Universities.
 
I am always happy to hear well argued/reasoned disagreement. :)

Spoiler :
Horse Archer rush GK? :lol:

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Quick comparison between SGOTM 18 and 19 using pomthom's latest test:

Spoiler :




SGOTM 18: 32 military units (inc. Scout) <---- edit: corrected these #s
SGOTM 19: 12 military units (inc. Scout) <---- edit: corrected these #s

SGOTM 18: 7 Workers
SGOTM 19: 10 Workers (11 in latest version)

SGOTM 18: 0 Courthouses (but Organized)
SGOTM 19: 5 Courthouses (not Organized)

SGOTM 18: 5 Cottage-type improvements, 3 commerce resources (Gold/Fur/Spices)
SGOTM 19: 15 Cottage-type improvements, 1 commerce resource (Gold)

SGOTM 18: 0 Great Scientists
SGOTM 19: 2 Great Scientists

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The accelerated start, superior capital, and possible rush make last game's difficult situation appear much worse than it was.

But even so, we are economically much, much sounder than at this stage in the previous game, where we had just started warring. Here the reverse is the case: the only war planned in the immediate future is a possible opportunistic grab against Tokugawa.

I am also ok with taking an economic hit now, while the AI is teching for us, whereas if our economy crashes in 80 turns, we will have left the AI well behind.

With quick growth and important building set-up, the limiting factor soon becomes green tiles, the # of Cottages we have laid down, and happiness/health. Since we have no Courthouses and are settling our final few cities, our economy has hit its nadir. In SGOTM 18, our economic crash had yet to begin, as we had just begun warring.

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pomthom: looking at the latest save, can you try to reduce the Market to a 3-pop whip in Case Depart? A 4-pop whip seems too much to me, and will whip away two Grassland Cottages.

The Sheepish Worker should, after he has chopped and cottaged, connect the Sheep, since :health: curtails Case Depart's growth at size 11.
 
Of course there's the damning possibility of resources stuck in that barb city which is why I asked if we could teleport into barb land when we found it [we can't] -- another Paratrooper game if this is the case :deadhorse:
On that matter I don't think the Barb city is holding a Corp resource, because it would render the objective impossible because of this rule:

Spoiler :
It is enough for the resources to be connected to the corporate HQ to be considered "accessed". The idea is that the Monopoly Corporation will be using every instance of its resources, and there is no requirement that all cities be connected to the capitol.

If the Barb city cannot be connected to our network, neither can our Corporate HQ.
 
pomthom: looking at the latest save, can you try to reduce the Market to a 3-pop whip in Case Depart? A 4-pop whip seems too much to me, and will whip away two Grassland Cottages.

It's probably fine to 4 pop whip the capital, the OF can go into HE.

@pomthom

You'd better hurry up a bit, we need to play 2~3 turns a day to be able to not rushing in the end.
 
@Duckweed
Not all cities will get CH I presume, so 15 gpt seems about right for the period that matters. We are still looking at a ~40 turns window of economic payback on new cities - assuming wealth exclusively is built once CH is completed.

By the time we would reach Education, Math should be available for trading. We're talking maybe 15 turns if we double bulb Edu.

@Doshin
Yes, we're in a better position than PD was at the same time. The first GS made an Academy and his impact will not be felt until maybe T150 when he will have contributed over 1500b. More free workers is good and that's probably the biggest difference why we're ahead of last game economically.

@pomthom
Flight and airport to hook up behind peaks/ice.

~~~

Basically, 7(maybe 8) cities would have been my goal with swift Oxford into Cuirassier/Cavalry/whatever. The earlier turns of Oxford and warring seem much better than a few extra cities in my mind.

But it's done, let's move forward. :)
 
@kossin

No aggression/irritation mode. :)

The last three cities have been: Cornish Cow; Thessalonica; Dye Hard. Of these, Thessalonica provided 70G when we captured it, which offsets the maintenance for ~14 turns, and, because the city can work two food resource tiles, it will be set up and paying back shortly after.

Dye Hard is a short-term economic hole, but has access to five resources, of which four will be worked and two (Stone/Dye) or unique. Stone in particular will speed up Oxford.

Cornish Cow... eh, I guess? The same goes for Pigs/Wheat. But I assume that this game will run for a while, and that Flight at least will be needed, and that we would set these up sooner or later. We could send the Scout to check the barb city if we want to be more certain on this point.

I don't see the reason for going to Education via Theology unless we can trade Theology around, and I fear there are no good AI techers. It is a HOF-type beeline, which rushes to Oxford while neglecting empire-wide development (great if you are taking other cities/Workers/techs with your Quechas and Immortals, but otherwise not so much). The AP (etc.) is less attractive in this game than the last, as we are not Industrious.

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Edit: yes, 2&#8211;3 turns a day should be our aim, otherwise we are creating a rod for our own backs. Bad RNG and wars slows play down (all the barbarians in my set) so it is also good to secure time when things are easier to control. Not griping, just an observation. :)
 
@Duckweed
Not all cities will get CH I presume, so 15 gpt seems about right for the period that matters. We are still looking at a ~40 turns window of economic payback on new cities - assuming wealth exclusively is built once CH is completed.

By the time we would reach Education, Math should be available for trading. We're talking maybe 15 turns if we double bulb Edu.

I don't feel that the earliest date to Edu matters because our cities are just not ready for universities. Even if we don't capture the 7th city (gain 77C, which is more than enough to pay the cost), don't settle the 8th horse city (~50C cost till CH) and 9th stone cities (<100g cost till T95), I don't think it's possible to have Edu ~T95 as you expected. Besides Theology+ Paper, 3 GSs(1 for Phi and 2 for Edu) or 2 GS + 1000B in the next 15 turns is unlikely.

As I have planned (probably in 30 turns), if we launch the GA when having CS, GP farms are ready to produce GPs (include 1 or 2 GM), more cottages are working in all cities, our economy will flourish at that time.

All those extra cities might cost us 300~400C, which is about 1 tech like Calendar till T110. It would be a big deal if those gold are important to get Currency or CoL, but not a big deal in the way to Edu.
 
I can change the Dye Hard micro so that we trade 2:commerce: for 1:hammers: (by working more hammers rather than food once Buddhism has spread)

Spoiler :
Turn City size City micro Food Bin Food cap Food Surplus Build Granary build Whip? Raw Prd Worker 1 Worker 2
79 1 Un. Phants 0 22 1 Granary 3 Move to Rice (1/5) Move to Rice (2/5)
80 1 Un. Phants 1 22 1 Granary 3 3 Rice (3/5) Rice (4/5)
81 1 Rice 2 22 5 Granary 6 1 Rice (5/5) Move to Phants (1/4)
82 1 Rice 7 22 5 Granary 7 1 Move to Phants (2/4) Phants (3/4)
83 1 Rice 12 22 5 Granary 8 1 Phants (4/4)
84 1 Phants 17 22 1 Granary 9 4
85 1 Phants 18 22 1 Granary 14 4
86 1 Rice 19 22 5 Granary 19 1
87 2 Rice + Phants 2 24 4 Granary 20 4
88 1 Rice 6 22 5 Granary 25 1W 1

But maybe now is not the best time to trade :commerce: away... it's really nothing important :lol:

If no one gives a preference I might go with the +1:hammers: -2:commerce:
 
2C > 1H, unless the hammer lets us build an important building sooner.

One other thing: use your discretion, but I wouldn't move the Shock Axe especially far much further away than the second Ice Hill. Then I would move him back into our territory. We will soon be a land target of Tokugawa, and Aggressive AI both increases the # of war rolls and encourages AI to overestimate their power.
 
Ok there is good and maybe bad news in the following screen shot:




Yes that's right "Kublai Khan will trade Horseback Riding, Mathematics" :D


Now what to do with this demand? I say accept because we're already Worst Enemy and this will make him plot IMO (he is very far away but I don't think that's what we need right now), and giving him Aesthetics opens up the possibility of cashing fail gold on Parth + SoZ
 
Yes, I would give in. We gain +5 diplo and will trade Aesthetics to Kublai anyway.

I doubt he will plot, but this will cause him to attack one of the Hindu block before us.

I'm not even sure HC knows where our cities are. :lol:
 
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