SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

OK I tried to integrate most suggestions, here is a run to turn 81. I don't have time to post a full PPP tonight but I'll give you the main points, the builds in the cities turn-by-turn and the final save.

It's far from perfect but it's a good start to discuss.

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City builds turn by turn​
Turn Case Depart Rice Pudding Golden Sands Sheepish Constantinople Thessalonica Cornish Cow Sea Horse Dye/Stone
T76 Market 2-pop whip Miss. CH CH Miss. Gran CH Gran
T77 Market OF to CH CH CH Miss. Gran CH Gran (receives chop)
T78 Market Miss. CH CH Miss. Whip Gran CH Whip Gran
T79 Market 2-pop whip Miss. CH CH Finish Miss. CH Settler CH Settled
T80 Market OF to CH, wrk mine to finish CH (receives chop) 3-pop W CH Miss. CH 2-pop W Settler CH
T81 Market 2-pop W CH 2-pop W Miss. CH OF to CH CH (Rice 4/5)

So I've got Grans everywhere @T79 (except Dye/Stone obvisouly), CHs in Sheepish and Rice Pudding @T81, a CH will be available in Golden Sands @T82 (with a chop and getting the first Missionary allows a 2-pop whip @T81), 3 Missionaries produced a 4th one @T82, a Settler ready to settle Pig/Wheat on T83.


2 Workers are ready to improve Rice for Thess, 2 Workers are improving Rice for Dye/Stone.


I decided to get a Settler out of Cornish Cow because it had decent food and working poor tiles apart from the resource ones (for settling Pigs/Wheat @T83).

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City screenshots:
Spoiler :



























A little border pop trick to get Workers ready for Thess even if Barbs are wandering:
Spoiler :



 

Attachments

I can't check the save just now, but some preliminary thoughts.

Case Départ

Can you improve the last Grassland Cottage in Case Départ one turn sooner? If we work this instead of the Marble @ size 9, this would let us grow to size 11 on T82.

Looking at your screenshot, with +3GPT, suggests that we will need the Heroic Epic to fund the next tech. Perhaps build this for fail gold, and only bother with the Market on those turns that another city can build the HE too.

Rice Pudding

If you build a Missionary and put the OF to a Missionary, will this speed the CH in Golden Sands or Cornish Cow?

This would also mean that we don't need to whip the city, which is food poor, twice. We could chop the Courthouse as soon as Mathematics is in, or choose to whip again (working more improved tiles in the interim).

Sheepish

Could you whip the Missionary here @ size 5/6 into the Courthouse? This would mean that Constantinople needs to build one less.

The Missionary would go to Stone/Dye, which will not need religion until it whips its Granary (~T85).

Constantinople

It looks like you are trying to slow growth with the Plains Hill. My inclination would be to grow faster and whip more quickly. Then use a 3–pop whip of a Courthouse to keep unhappiness in check.

The Plains Hill is not the best improvement for 4 Worker turns, unless you need the extra :hammers: to complete something specific. Otherwise, Workers moving from East <----> West can improve it later on, when they are in transit.

Thessalonica

How much :food: on the turn that the Granary completes?

Cornish Cow

Since this is our most expensive city (I think) can you whip a Courthouse before a Settler? The city should be able to work two Cottages @ size 4, and thus whipping at size 5 is not an issue.

If the Settler completes on T81, are two Workers close to Pigs/Wheat, and a road network in place?

Sea Horse

How much :food: on the turn that the Granary completes?

Dye/Stone

Obviously doesn't need to be settled on T79 if the site is not threatened by Tokugawa.


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Edit: I had a quick look at the file. It is a good start. :)

Spoiler :

I won't harp on about our need for Missionaries in the north. ;) But I would add that Sea Horse needs a religion too, for the :culture: . A border pop will let us work Clams and Horse. Either use a Missionary from Constantinople, or whip one in Sheepish.

After the Granary in Sea Horse is built, it can grow to size 3 by working the Corn and Rice. If Sea Horse is @ size 2/3, Constantinople can whip its citizens. When Constantinople has regrown, whip Sea Horse. Sea Horse can also 1-pop whip a Work Boat if absolutely necessary.

After the Grasslands have Cottages, Case Départ doesn't need more than one Worker, if that. I don't think the road 2W is needed (either move 1NE, Cottage/cancel; or 2SW, to move west; or 2S, to move onto the riverside Forest in Sheepish). We don't need a road on the Corn.

Some Workers can move onto Forests (= 1 turn), pre-chop (= 2 turns), and then pre-Cottage (= 3 turns) or pre-farm (= 4 turns). This will save Worker turns and preserve Forests until we need them, as long as you don't require the Workers elsewhere.
 
Capital -- Produce HE whenever possible, in that case, work on marble. If producing market, try to hire scientists since I'd like to bulb Phi before other AI get it.

The OF from Rice pudding goes to another missionary since there are 2 northern cities needing them.

I would not whip away cottage tiles in Sheepish, try to chop the last riverside grassland forest soon and cottage it.

Try to time the chop of forests in Golden sands and Cornish cow when the missionary arrives and whip the CHs as soon as possible

There's no need to hurry the Pig/wheat site before we can send 2 workers to road toward there.
 
I can't check the save just now, but some preliminary thoughts.

Case Départ

Can you improve the last Grassland Cottage in Case Départ one turn sooner? If we work this instead of the Marble @ size 9, this would let us grow to size 11 on T82.

It's possible if I use all 3 Workers around Case Depart (@T76: Silk Worker cott 1/4, PH Worker moves 2N1W farms 4/5 & cancels; @T77: 3 workers are on the GL and improve Cott). It might or might not delay Farm for Rice Pudding depending on if I send 1 or 2 Workers there.

Duckweed suggests that if we build HE here we work Marble though.


Looking at your screenshot, with +3GPT, suggests that we will need the Heroic Epic to fund the next tech. Perhaps build this for fail gold, and only bother with the Market on those turns that another city can build the HE too.

Yes it might be best, especially if we keep my current Rice Puddingg micro where I have produced 2 Miss and a CH by T81 and can switch to actually start building the HE on T81.

Rice Pudding

If you build a Missionary and put the OF to a Missionary, will this speed the CH in Golden Sands or Cornish Cow?

This would also mean that we don't need to whip the city, which is food poor, twice. We could chop the Courthouse as soon as Mathematics is in, or choose to whip again (working more improved tiles in the interim).

I tried this and it just felt really slow. I agree the city needs to grow but we have mandatory builds we need to complete as fast as possible.

Producing 2 Missionaries and 1 CH in 4 turns and still end up @size 5 is pretty decent I think. The city can take 2 whips IMO and I'm not whipping away cottages, so the early CH will snowball much better on the economy than growing on GL Mines (I think). My micro delays the 2nd Missionary by 2 turns in Cornish Cow which is still before we whip the CH there so I think it's a good compromise.

The first Missionary going to Golden Sands and a chop allows Golden Sands to 2-pop whip the CH on T81 which I like because 3-pop whipping that city is a bit harsh compared to food surplus (plus it's the earliest we can do I think).


Sheepish

Could you whip the Missionary here @ size 5/6 into the Courthouse? This would mean that Constantinople needs to build one less.

I guess it would be possible but I actually think it's not that bad to 2-pop whip another Missionary in Constantinople because we can OF in CH (food is definitely not a problem in this city and until we clear all that forest there aren't much interesting tiles to work). Not sure about this (I don't think my micro really delays the CH in Const).

The Missionary would go to Stone/Dye, which will not need religion until it whips its Granary (~T85).

Religion is also important for border pop, we might want to get our hands on the Stone sooner rather than later (possibly).

Constantinople

It looks like you are trying to slow growth with the Plains Hill. My inclination would be to grow faster and whip more quickly. Then use a 3-pop whip of a Courthouse to keep unhappiness in check.

The Plains Hill is not the best improvement for 4 Worker turns, unless you need the extra :hammers: to complete something specific. Otherwise, Workers moving from East <----> West can improve it later on, when they are in transit.

No I only work the plains for 1 turn because it yields 2C and allows not too many hammers in Missionary for a 2-pop whip on T81. I'll try out your suggestion though.

You're right about Worker turns in that area, I was uncomfortable with this because the disposition is awkward. I need to keep these 2 Workers in the area because they have to be ready to improve Thess Rice after its border pop. I'll try something else with your suggestions (including those you edited below after looking at the save).


Thessalonica

How much :food: on the turn that the Granary completes?

Very good question, I didn't pay too much attention to whip optim in this city (I just work the FGH for the 1 turn @size 2 and then whip, maybe I can wait 1 more turn for a better food bin and more hammer OF - will check).

Cornish Cow

Since this is our most expensive city (I think) can you whip a Courthouse before a Settler? The city should be able to work two Cottages @ size 4, and thus whipping at size 5 is not an issue.

Food is decent in this city, I actually don't think this delays the CH by much (the Settler generates a bit of OF). The city has plenty of happiness to spare so the best use of its 2 good tiles is whipping a bit harder I think. I'll try to determine by how many turns this delays the CH.

If the Settler completes on T81, are two Workers close to Pigs/Wheat, and a road network in place?

Yep :)
For a T83 settle. It's early compared to our recovering economy but it's a good city spot and the 2 Workers on site justifies the early settle IMO.


Sea Horse

How much :food: on the turn that the Granary completes?

Not sure either but the whip is pretty decent, that I know (the bin is definitely under half but it's not a perfect whip)

Dye/Stone

Obviously doesn't need to be settled on T79 if the site is not threatened by Tokugawa.

Sure but if we have 2 Workers there to improve the Rice why not? :) (Farm will 4/5 at the end of T81)

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I won't harp on about our need for Missionaries in the north. ;) But I would add that Sea Horse needs a religion too, for the :culture: . A border pop will let us work Clams and Horse. Either use a Missionary from Constantinople, or whip one in Sheepish.

I agree. I sent the first Missionary from Const to Dye/Stone but I think I'll send him to Sea Horse instead. Then again, as mentioned earlier, we might need an early border pop in Dye/Stone too (but I think it can be delayed).

After the Granary in Sea Horse is built, it can grow to size 3 by working the Corn and Rice. If Sea Horse is @ size 2/3, Constantinople can whip its citizens. When Constantinople has regrown, whip Sea Horse. Sea Horse can also 1-pop whip a Work Boat if absolutely necessary.

OK I'll look into those possibilities.

After the Grasslands have Cottages, Case Départ doesn't need more than one Worker, if that. I don't think the road 2W is needed (either move 1NE, Cottage/cancel; or 2SW, to move west; or 2S, to move onto the riverside Forest in Sheepish). We don't need a road on the Corn.

Some Workers can move onto Forests (= 1 turn), pre-chop (= 2 turns), and then pre-Cottage (= 3 turns) or pre-farm (= 4 turns). This will save Worker turns and preserve Forests until we need them, as long as you don't require the Workers elsewhere.

Yes I know, I built the roads because it didn't know what to do in transit I need to rethink this and take into account your suggestions.

Capital -- Produce HE whenever possible, in that case, work on marble. If producing market, try to hire scientists since I'd like to bulb Phi before other AI get it.

Yes I agree HE is relevant, I'll include that in next run.

The OF from Rice pudding goes to another missionary since there are 2 northern cities needing them.

I understand but I will refer to my earlier comments to Doshin: the delay is only of 2 turns in Cornish Cow, before we could whip a CH anyway (and also a 2 turn delay on the border pop which is not good but not too bad for that city). Instead Rice Pudding builds 2 Miss and an early CH in 4 turns and can then concentrate on HE to cash in on the fail gold and get back to research. I might be wrong but for the moment it feels right to me.

I would not whip away cottage tiles in Sheepish, try to chop the last riverside grassland forest soon and cottage it.

Yes I know, and I don't :) (had noted your comment about it earlier).

I was wondering about that riverside GL forest pre-math, I'll definitely plan for it but don't know if I could do this by T81.


Try to time the chop of forests in Golden sands and Cornish cow when the missionary arrives and whip the CHs as soon as possible

Done for Golden Sands, and should be OK for Cornish Cow.

There's no need to hurry the Pig/wheat site before we can send 2 workers to road toward there.

My current micro has a road network and 2 Workers ready for a T83 settle.

I'll post the micro of a 2nd run this evening.

Maybe my set should stop when I complete HE/cash in on the fail gold? We would have 10 cities and good infra by then.

I'll have less time after Friday and I don't want to slow the pace down if someone can take over (Duckweed/Folket?). Let me know what you think!
 
@pomthom

Your plan gave more priority on settling the 10th city earlier, which includes whipping the settler from Cornish Cow before CH and assigning workers to road to the site. Are those workers from the Golden sands and Cornish Cow? If so, then there's no worker to chop for these 2 cities. We only have 10 workers for potential 10 cities, so the most efficient way of managing workers is to let each city have 1 worker to avoid wasting worker turns on moving back and forth. Of course in special cases that you want 2 workers in adjacent cities to work together. That says you could send 1 worker near Sheepish immediately to improve the riverside tiles.

The benefit of earlier 10th city is the food yield, but big economical hole. The reason why I said this is because I prefer earlier CHs and better shape of current cities than earlier 10th city.

There's no need to hurry the Pig/wheat site before we can send 2 workers to road toward there.

For instance, CH in Cornish Cow not only saves ~3g, but also gives 2E, which is good as well since we are planning to steal a tech from Toku in the near future.

I don't think there's much difference of yield between 2 whips to missionaries and OF to CH and 1 whip to missionary plus 1 whip to CH. OTOH, the former way delays the 2nd missionary by 3 turns. Both Northern cities only need 1 chop to whip CH at size 4.
 
@pomthom
Your plan gave more priority on settling the 10th city earlier, which includes whipping the settler from Cornish Cow before CH and assigning workers to road to the site. Are those workers from the Golden sands and Cornish Cow? If so, then there's no worker to chop for these 2 cities

Yes it's true about the Worker in Cornish Cow, I had just planned to whip the CH without a chop (hence deciding to put a Settler in between). Will try putting a chop in Cornish to whip a CH first. This indeed requires an earlier Missionary compared to my run...

I had put a chop in Golden Sands no problem though


We only have 10 workers for potential 10 cities, so the most efficient way of managing workers is to let each city have 1 worker to avoid wasting worker turns on moving back and forth. Of course in special cases that you want 2 workers in adjacent cities to work together. That says you could send 1 worker near Sheepish immediately to improve the riverside tiles.

Yes, I hadn't planned for the Sheepish chop because of the pre-math thing but I'll try something else.

The benefit of earlier 10th city is the food yield, but big economical hole. The reason why I said this is because I prefer earlier CHs and better shape of current cities than earlier 10th city.

Sure, I agree, I just considered a Worker was no longer needed in Cornish which was an oversight (because of the chop). I think the Settler will still come from Cornish, but after the CH.

For instance, CH in Cornish Cow not only saves ~3g, but also gives 2E, which is good as well since we are planning to steal a tech from Toku in the near future.

About EPs, should I plan for Spies at some point? If so when?

I don't think there's much difference of yield between 2 whips to missionaries and OF to CH and 1 whip to missionary plus 1 whip to CH. OTOH, the former way delays the 2nd missionary by 3 turns. Both Northern cities only need 1 chop to whip CH at size 4.

Just 2 turn delay. It wasn't about tile yields it was about getting the CH in Rice Pudding as early as possible without 3-pop whipping it. But the chop + CH whip in Cornish changes things: my 2nd Missionary is probably too late now, will have to reassess and OF in the Missionary like Doshin and you suggested (however this delays the CH in Rice Pudding compared to my run by 2 turns I think), so the answer might not be obvious.

Ok I think my second run will be more prioritized
 
The worker in Cornish Cow should stay since it's far away from other cities and there are many jobs as chop, cottage.

We want to steal either Construction and/or Calendar. Depending on how hard to trade Calendar, we might want it 1st. We could chop MoM in Constantinople or in Rice pudding. A bit early for spy now since we are still short of EPs. The spy could come from either Constantinople or nearby. We should consider it ~T80, we also want Toku's border city having Bud by that time. Hope you could see some free religion spread in your play.
 
Chops should, of course, be delayed until the last moment possible if we still lack Mathematics. Either (a) improve other tiles before this, e.g. Cornish Cow should receive a Cottage 2N of the city; (b) pre-chop (2-turns) and then pre-Cottage/Farm the tile (3/4 turns), e.g. 1W of Golden Sands can be farmed for 4 turns. In some instances, you can also choose to (c) build a road. Roads are only worthwhile if they serve a purpose, e.g. 2W of Golden Sands could eventually connect Pigs/Wheat.

Regarding whips in Constantinople/Sheepish, if you whip a Missionary, then 1.333-pop points are spent on the Missionary, and the OF passes into the next build (0.666-pop). Otherwise put: 2&#8211;pop are worth 60H, and only 20H will pass into the Courthouse.

Constantinople's maintenance is higher than that of Sheepish, and it requires an extra building (the Library). So it would be better to perform a 3&#8211;pop whip of a Courthouse into a Library than to whip a Missionary into a Courthouse into a Library.

Constantinople has a large surplus of food, but Sea Horse will also borrow the Corn/Rice to grow before the border pop. So let's halve the food surplus of the shared resource tiles:

  • Constantinople: +6F (Pigs, 'first' tile) +2F (Corn) +1.5F (Rice) +1F (FP) &#8211;1F (ivory) = +9.5F surplus.
  • Sheepish: +5F (Sheep, 'first' tile), +1F (FPs) +1F (Grassland Farm) +2F (Wheat) = 9F surplus
As you can see, when you factor in the sharing of tiles, Sheepish can grow almost as quickly as Constantinople in the next 10 or so turns.

Finally, distant towns need Courthouses more urgently than those closer to the capital. So Golden Sands/Cornish Cow/Constantinople > Rice Pudding/Sheepish.
 
PPP v1 T76 - 83

There's a lot of info to compute, I hope its clear enough. I could present it in a Doshin-style if you'd prefer but I'd probably lose time over it because it's not how I work :scan:


Research

0% on Metal Casting Compass (?)


Diplomacy

Pay a lot of attention to diplo opportunities, especially tech trading
Reassess with team if anything comes up


City Micro

Turn Case Depart Rice Pudding Golden Sands Sheepish Constantinople Cornish Cow Thessalonica Sea Horse Dye/Stone
T76 HE 2-pop whip Miss. CH CH Miss. CH Gran Gran
T77 OF to Miss. Size 4-wrk Elephants Size 3-wrk Cott Size 2-wrk FPH Size 2-wrks FGL (chop)
T78 Size 9-wrk GL Cott OF to CH Size 7, wrk GL Mine Whip Gran Whip Gran, wrk Rice
T79 Size 6-wrk GL Mine Size 5, wrk Lake (Buddh, chop) Switch to Miss., 2-pop W, wrk Cotts Size 5-wrk Mine to finish Miss. Size 4-wrk GL (Buddh, chop) CH CH Settle, wrk un. Rice
T80 Size 10-wrk GL Mine 2-pop W CH 2-pop W CH OF to CH, Size 6-wrk GL Farm CH, switch Mine to Cott 2-pop W CH (Buddhism)
T81 Swtch to Mrkt, run 2 GS OF to HE, swtch Mine to Farm OF to Library Size 6-wrk PH Mine, swtch Corn to Cott OF to Parth, Size 3-wrk Cott Size 2-wrks Corn Work Rice
T82 Size 5-wrk GL Mine 2-pop W CH, wrk Cotts 3-pop W CH, wrk riverside Cott
T83 GS born, Size 11-wrk Marble + Cotts Size 4-wrk Farm Size 6-wrk Farm Size 4-wrk Elephants + non riv Cott Size 4-wrk Cott, swtch Settler Size 2-wrk Rice Size 3-wrk riv Cott



Worker Micro (for the brave):

Spoiler :
Turn Worker 1 (1W of Case Dep) Worker 2 (Silk) Worker 3 (PH 1E of Case Dep) Worker 4 (3E2S of Const) Worker 5 (3E2S of Const) Worker 6 (2S of Sea H) Worker 7 (Toku) Worker 8 (Toku) Worker 9 (2W of Golden S) Worker 10 (2S of Cornish)
T76 Cott (4/4) Move 2S, Cott (1/4) Move 1SW, Cott (3/4) Move 1N2W, Cott (4/5) Move 1N2W, Cott (5/5) Chop (2/3) Road (1/2) Move 1NE Road (1/2) Cott (4/4)
T77 Move 1W, Cott (2/4) Cott (3/4) & C Move 2S1W, Mine (4/4) Move 1S Move 1N3W, Cott (3/4) Chop (3/3) Road (2/2) Road (1/2) Road (2/2) Move 2N, Cott (1/4)
T78 Cott (4/4) Move 2N2E, Farm (4/5) & C Move 2S2W Road (1/2) Cott (4/4) Cott (1/4) Move 1SW, Road (1/2) Road (2/2) Move 1E, Farm (1/5) & C Cott (2/4) & C
T79 Move 1NE, Cott (1/4) & C Move 1NE, Farm (2/5) Chop (1/3) Road (2/2) Move 1N, Mine (4/4) Cott (2/4) Road (2/2) Move 2N1W, Rice (1/5) Chop (3/3) Move 1W, Chop (3/3)
T80 Move 2N2E, Farm (3/5) Farm (4/5) & C Chop (2/3) Move 1S, Chop (1/3) & C Move 3S2E, Chop (1/3) & C Cott (3/4) Move 2N2E, Jungle (1/4) & C Rice (2/5) Farm (2/5) Move 1E, Cott (3/4)
T81 Farm (5/5) Move 1E Chop (3/3) Move 1SE, Rice (1/5) Move 2S1E, Rice (2/5) Cott (4/4) Move 2N1W, Rice (3/5) Rice (4/5) & C Farm (3/5) Cott (4/4)
T82 Move 2S2W, Cott (2/4) & C Chop (1/3) Cott (1/4) Rice (3/5) Rice (4/5) & C Move 1N2W Rice (5/5) Move 1E, Phant (1/4) & C Farm (4/5) Move 1W, Cott (1/4)
T83 Move 2S1E, Cott (4/4) Cott (2/4) Rice (5/5) Chop (1/3) Farm (5/5) Cott (2/4)

Troops

Fog-bust future city sites and paths used by Workers/Settlers/Missionaries
Constantinople needs a garrisson for turns 81 & 82, a nearby veteran could do the trick
Explore safely with other troops if possible
 
PPP draft test game attached.

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Granaries

T79: Thessalonica, Sea Horse


Courthouses (Rice Pudding: I managed to put the Missionary OF in a Missionary and not delay the CH)

T81: Rice Pudding, Golden Sands, Cornish Cow
T83: Sheepish, Constantinople


Buddhism
Spoiler :

The Missionary for Dye/Stone is on the way



Fail Gold

Case Depart: 98 :hammers: in HE
Cornish Cow: 45 :hammers: in Parth or SoZ
Sheepish: 54 OF :hammers: to put in Parth or SoZ

Question: I considered it was more profitable to bank on some fail gold in Cornish Cow rather than OF in a Library, what do you think? (I mean this is not really your dream commerce city...)


Miscellaneous

GS born on T83 (if not unlucky :mischief:)
Settler can be produced in Cornish Cow on T85 (for a T89 settle probably)


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City screenshots:
Spoiler :
























 

Attachments

Looks much improved. :)

T78/9 Worker 4: it would be better to road/chop the Forest 1W of the FPs.
Worker 5, T79: are you sure this Plains Hill has already been pre-mined?
Worker 6, T82: is chopping this Forest > cottaging another tile?

In the north, I think it will be better to farm a Dye before improving the Ivory. This would use up 5 Worker turns on a short-term Farm, but we will not have Calendar for a while and food will be needed.

I forgot that Dye/Stone lacks a Forest.

It may be better to improve the Ivory before the Rice. I am not sure. Let's say:

Spoiler :
T79: Settle. Work unimproved Rice. Improve Ivory (1/4)
T80: 3F 1H. Ivory (3/4).
T81: 6F 2H. Work improved Ivory. Rice (1/5)
T82: 7F 6H. Rice (3/5)
T83: 8F 10H. Rice (5/5).
T84: 9F 14H. Work improved Rice.
T85: 14F 15H.
T86: 19F 16H.
T87: 24/22F = 2F 17H. Grow to size 2. Work Rice/Ivory.
T88: 6/24F. 21H. Whip (= 63/60H)
T89: 11/22F.

You'd need to check the above, as it is untested.


I also wouldn't put any more effort into figuring this out until we are 100% sure we can settle the city. ;)

Research: Compass

Fail gold: now, I would not put :hammers: into anything besides the Heroic Epic and maaayybe the Temple of Artemis. The payoff time for the Aesthetics wonders is too far away right now.

A Library in Cornish Cow is not important in the short-term, but its value would increase if the Worker runs out of Grassland tiles to cottage (i.e. a border pop is needed).

Constantinople garrison is the Axeman 2W of the city for the time being. I moved this out to guard the Settler on T76.

Make sure that you know how you can settle Stone/Dye on T78, if Tokugawa builds a road on the Corn IBT.

When Tokugawa next has 1GPT, I would sell our Copper. Warriors are good builds in cities with the essential infrastructure.

Edit: green light from me. :thumbsup:
 
Looks good.

OF in Cornish Cow, you could bank it until Settler.

No need to improve the plain tile in capital since it's going to either hire scientists or whip the market. I'd send that worker to help Sheepish temporary.

Could whip a worker in Golden sands to speedup the settling of 10th city.

The missionary to the stone site should go via the road, 1 turn faster to enter our own culture

The axe north of the sea horse could go to replace the position of the scout and let it scout north and then west. The axe near Stone site goes inside the city culture to save outgoing fee. Let the WoodmanIII axe scout Toku's land.
 
Also, although I moved our north-western Axeman away from H.C. on the last turn I played, I would now prefer to locate H.C.'s capital before returning east.

The main reason is that I would like us to be able to see Huayna's capital in the espionage screen, to better judge fail gold management (e.g. is H.C. currently building the ToA? Or Chichen Itza?) and the risk to important wonders we might choose to build (e.g. if we both get Nationalism, how quickly do we need to build the Taj?).
 
Looks much improved. :)

T78/9 Worker 4: it would be better to road/chop the Forest 1W of the FPs.

Good call.

Worker 5, T79: are you sure this Plains Hill has already been pre-mined?

I trusted the test game on this, I'll check in the real game. If that's not the case the Constantinople Missionnary will be delayed by 1 turn.

Worker 6, T82: is chopping this Forest > cottaging another tile?

I think so, not sure. My idea was to chop this into Sea Horse's CH for an earlier 2-pop whip, allowing at the same time to clear a GL for a Cottage that can be shared between both cities. Don't know if it would be better to delay the chop by 4 turns or 3-pop whip Sea Horse :dunno:


In the north, I think it will be better to farm a Dye before improving the Ivory. This would use up 5 Worker turns on a short-term Farm, but we will not have Calendar for a while and food will be needed.

I forgot that Dye/Stone lacks a Forest.
It may be better to improve the Ivory before the Rice. I am not sure. Let's say:
Spoiler :
T79: Settle. Work unimproved Rice. Improve Ivory (1/4)
T80: 3F 1H. Work unimproved Ivory. Ivory (3/4).
T81: 4F 4H. Work improved Ivory. Rice (1/5)
T82: 5F 8H. Rice (3/5)
T83: 6F 12H. Rice (5/5).
T84: 7F 16H. Work improved Rice.
T85: 12F 17H.
T86: 17F 18H.
T87: 22/22F 19H. Grow to size 2. Work Rice/Ivory.
T88: 4/24F. 23H. Whip (= 66/60H)
T89: 8/22F.
You'd need to check the above, and I am sure it can be done more efficiently. The best micro would have generated ~20H on the turn that the city has ~6F @ size 2.


I also wouldn't put any more effort into figuring this out until we are 100% sure we can settle the city. ;)

Makes sense ;)
I'll take a quick look though.

I haven't optimized Sea Horse's and Thessalonica's whips either. I reckon there might be a non-neglectable waste of food in the case of SH.


Research: Compass

Fail gold: now, I would not put :hammers: into anything besides the Heroic Epic and maaayybe the Temple of Artemis. The payoff time for the Aesthetics wonders is too far away right now.

What do you mean by "maaayybe"? :mischief:
OK Aesth wonders are too far but I can't put hammers on HE, so what would you do in Cornish Cow after CH?



A Library in Cornish Cow is not important in the short-term, but its value would increase if the Worker runs out of Grassland tiles to cottage (i.e. a border pop is needed).

? Don't understand what you mean.
Border will pop in 6 turns



Constantinople garrison is the Axeman 2W of the city for the time being. I moved this out to guard the Settler on T76.

Make sure that you know how you can settle Stone/Dye on T78, if Tokugawa builds a road on the Corn IBT.

Yep my micro is flexible to that.


When Tokugawa next has 1GPT, I would sell our Copper. Warriors are good builds in cities with the essential infrastructure.

Yeah I'll add that to the PPP.

^^^ I'll look at the test tomorrow morning, and let you know if anything else occurs to me.


Looks good.

OF in Cornish Cow, you could bank it until Settler.

Do you mean switch to building wealth?


No need to improve the plain tile in capital since it's going to either hire scientists or whip the market. I'd send that worker to help Sheepish temporary.

I agree, these plains improvements are simply to not waste Worker turns... I'll check if using a Worker turn just to move can save a turn in Sheepish and will amend the micro.


Could whip a worker in Golden sands to speedup the settling of 10th city.

Maybe after the Library? It might not be necessary: one of the two Dye/Stone Workers should free up soon and could move in time to help.


The missionary to the stone site should go via the road, 1 turn faster to enter our own culture

Yes of course, there was just a Barb Archer in the way during my run and I couldn't be bothered to manage the Axes but I'll prepare for it when playing.

The axe north of the sea horse could go to replace the position of the scout and let it scout north and then west. The axe near Stone site goes inside the city culture to save outgoing fee. Let the WoodmanIII axe scout Toku's land.

Will add it the PPP.


Also, although I moved our north-western Axeman away from H.C. on the last turn I played, I would now prefer to locate H.C.'s capital before returning east.
The main reason is that I would like us to be able to see Huayna's capital in the espionage screen, to better judge fail gold management (e.g. is H.C. currently building the ToA? Or Chichen Itza?) and the risk to important wonders we might choose to build (e.g. if we both get Nationalism, how quickly do we need to build the Taj?).

Yeah that's a good reason, will add to the PPP.

Are you guys confident enough for me to play a few turns today? (and available to shadow?)
 
I'm 95% sure the PH is totally unimproved in the real game. BUFFY lets you hover over a tile and judge improvements, whereas BUG does not (at least for me). The Test-Asoka must have pre-mined the tile.

Unless the mined PH :hammers: would bring us exactly to 40H, perhaps you could work an unimproved Forest PH in Constantinople (only 1 less hammer)? As long as the Missionary reaches Stone/Dye before the Granary whip, we should be ok.

IIRC correctly, Sea Horse should work the 1F2C coastal tile on the turn that it whips the Granary. I think that leaves it with 12/22F (+2C), which is fine. On the turn before the chop, you could also change one of the two GFs to a coastal tile, as long as this won't take us below the necessary 30H to whip (= 11/22F &#8211;1H +4C, maybe?).

Bank the :hammers: in Cornish Cow > Library (i.e. build Wealth). If you bank OF, we can always put it into the Heroic Epic a turn or two later. We don't need this to be built until Construction. Rice Pudding can build Warriors whenever another city is generating fail gold.

Before exploring with Woodsman III Axe, make sure that the Settler is safe. I don't know whether the barb LB moved away from Toku's city, or whether he attacked.

Yes, you are good to go as far as I'm concerned. :) I can stick around for a while to offer feedback.
 
Are you guys confident enough for me to play a few turns today? (and available to shadow?)

Go ahead. Just be aware of the RNG based results, such as natural religion spread, or HC trades Math from Alex, KK gets Math from Toku.

About the worker in Golden sand, I think we would need it before Lib, it's also convenient to have an extra worker beside one for each city.
 
Go ahead. Just be aware of the RNG based results, such as natural religion spread, or HC trades Math from Alex, KK gets Math from Toku.

About the worker in Golden sand, I think we would need it before Lib, it's also convenient to have an extra worker beside one for each city.
2 Workers built for 10 cities. :wow:

Spoiler :
(edit: built by us :lol:)
 
PPP v2 T76 - 83

Non-micro updates in red. Made also quite a few minor Micro changes that allow me a perfect whip in Sea Horse and to get the CH in Constantinople 1 turn sooner :)

Question: is there a reason to slow down on running scientists if it looks like we won't be able to get Maths before our GS is born?


-----------------


Research

0% on Compass


Diplomacy

Pay a lot of attention to diplo opportunities, especially tech trading
If Tokugawa shows +1 GPT, trade Copper for it to produce HR Warriors
Reassess with team if anything comes up


City Micro

Turn Case Depart Rice Pudding Golden Sands Sheepish Constantinople Cornish Cow Thessalonica Sea Horse Dye/Stone
T76 HE 2-pop whip Miss. CH CH Miss., wrk Corn, Pig, Rice CH Gran Gran, wrk 2 GLFs
T77 OF to Miss. Size 4-wrk FP Cott Size 3-wrk Cott Size 2-wrk FPH Switch to riv GL (chop)
T78 Size 9-wrk GL Cott OF to CH Size 7, wrk GL Mine Size 5-wrk FPH, swtch Corn to Phant Whip Gran Whip Gran, wrk Corn
T79 Size 6-wrk GL Mine Size 5, wrk Lake (Buddh, chop) Switch to Miss., 2-pop W, wrk Cotts Swtch FPH to FP Size 4-wrk GL (Buddh, chop) CH CH Settle, wrk un. Rice
T80 Size 10-wrk GL Mine 2-pop W CH 2-pop W CH OF to CH, Size 6-wrk GL Farm CH, size 6-wrk Cott, swtch FP to FPH 2-pop W CH (Buddhism)
T81 Swtch to Mrkt, run 2 GS OF to HE, swtch Mine to Farm OF to Library 3-pop W CH, wrk riverside Cott OF to Parth, Size 3-wrk Cott Size 2-wrks Rice Work Rice
T82 Size 5-wrk GL Mine 2-pop W CH, wrk Cotts Size 4-wrk Cotts
T83 GS born, Size 11-wrk Marble + Cotts Size 4-wrk Farm, swtch Worker Size 6-wrk Farm Size 4-wrk Cott, swtch Settler Size 2-wrk Rice Size 3-wrk riv Cott



Worker Micro

Turn Worker 1 (1W of Case Dep) Worker 2 (Silk) Worker 3 (PH 1E of Case Dep) Worker 4 (3E2S of Const) Worker 5 (3E2S of Const) Worker 6 (2S of Sea H) Worker 7 (Toku) Worker 8 (Toku) Worker 9 (2W of Golden S) Worker 10 (2S of Cornish)
T76 Cott (4/4) Move 2S, Cott (1/4) Move 1SW, Cott (3/4) Move 1N2W, Cott (4/5) Move 1N2W, Cott (5/5) Chop (2/3) Road (1/2) Move 1NE Road (1/2) Cott (4/4)
T77 Move 1W, Cott (2/4) Cott (3/4) & C Move 2S1W, Mine (4/4) Move 1W Move 1N3W, Cott (3/4) Chop (3/3) Road (2/2) Road (1/2) Road (2/2) Move 2N, Cott (1/4)
T78 Cott (4/4) Move 2N2E, Farm (4/5) & C Move 2S2W Road (1/2) Cott (4/4) Cott (1/4) Move 1SW, Road (1/2) Road (2/2) Move 1E, Farm (1/5) & C Cott (2/4) & C
T79 Move 1NE, Cott (1/4) & C Move 1NE, Farm (2/5) Chop (1/3) Road (2/2) Move 1SE, Chop (1/3) & C Cott (2/4) Road (2/2) Move 2N1W, Rice (1/5) Chop (3/3) Move 1W, Chop (3/3)
T80 Move 2N2E, Farm (3/5) Farm (4/5) & C Chop (2/3) Move 2S1E, Chop (1/3) & C Move 2S1E, Chop (2/3) & C Cott (3/4) Move 2N2E, Jungle (1/4) & C Rice (2/5) Farm (2/5) Move 1E, Cott (3/4)
T81 Farm (5/5) Move to 1SW of Case Dep. Chop (3/3) Move 1SE, Rice (1/5) Move 2S1E, Rice (2/5) Cott (4/4) Move 2N1W, Rice (3/5) Rice (4/5) & C Farm (3/5) Cott (4/4)
T82 Move 1E Move 2S2W, Cott (1/4) & C Cott (1/4) Rice (3/5) Rice (4/5) & C Move 1N2W Rice (5/5) Move 1E, Phant (1/4) & C Farm (4/5) Move 1W, Cott (1/4)
T83 Chop (1/3) Move 2S, Cott (2/4) Cott (3/4) Rice (5/5) Chop (1/3) Farm (5/5) Cott (2/4)

Troops

Fog-bust future city sites and paths used by Workers/Settlers/Missionaries
The Axe North of Sea Horse can replace the Scout so it can scout North then West.
The Woody III Axe will scout Toku's territory as soon as our Settler has been secured a safe passage to Dye/Stone.
North Western Axe explores HC's territory and finds capitole.
Constantinople needs a garrisson for turns 81 & 82, a nearby veteran could do the trick
Explore safely with other troops if possible
 
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