SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

[Doshin]

0% slider after Oxford is fine, but if we finish Gunpowder with, e.g., 800G banked, the Cuirassier rush has been delayed by 2–3 turns. We will attack later, capture cities later, they leave revolt later... and so on. We are also going to receive fail gold over the coming turns, which will let us run the slider @ 100% for a little longer too.

Do you have an estimate for the time needed to research the next three, post-Education techs? If not, perhaps we should run a few rough tests tomorrow. I am personally not sure what our BPT rate will be like after the Cottages begin to mature, the GA starts, and Universities/Oxford are built.

If we can switch into Representation and Police State, this will compensate for the slower attack. We will whip away fewer pop for the initial stack. But if we delay the attack and also miss the wonder, I don't think the fail gold will be worth it.

(We could also estimate HC's HPT in his two wonder cities. Bureaucracy and the GA will boost our hammers, so we may be able to overtake him)

 

[Duckweed]

T106

The world map

Spoiler :

As expected, we need to DoW everyone either going for sushi or Mine.

Good news that Toku's stack is heading south for the south barbarian city.

Spoiler :

Log

Spoiler :

Turn 96, 475 BC: You have discovered Civil Service!

Turn 97, 450 BC: You have trained a Horse Archer in Rice Pudding. Work has now begun on a Horse Archer.
Turn 97, 450 BC: You have trained a Horse Archer in Golden Sands. Work has now begun on a Horse Archer.

Turn 98, 425 BC: You have trained a Horse Archer in Rice Pudding. Work has now begun on a Horse Archer.
Turn 98, 425 BC: You have trained a Horse Archer in Cornish Cow. Work has now begun on a Horse Archer.
Turn 98, 425 BC: The borders of Bacon Sandwich have expanded!
Turn 98, 425 BC: Alexander has declared war on Napoleon!

Turn 99, 400 BC: Isaac Newton (Great Scientist) has been born in Case Départ (Trumpster)!

Turn 100, 375 BC: You have trained a Horse Archer in Rice Pudding. Work has now begun on a Horse Archer.
Turn 100, 375 BC: You have trained a Horse Archer in Thessalonica. Work has now begun on Buddhist Missionary.

Turn 101, 350 BC: You have trained a Horse Archer in Rice Pudding. Work has now begun on a Horse Archer.
Turn 101, 350 BC: You have trained a Horse Archer in Sea Horse. Work has now begun on Buddhist Missionary.

Turn 102, 325 BC: You have trained a Horse Archer in Rice Pudding. Work has now begun on a Horse Archer.

Turn 103, 300 BC: You have trained a Horse Archer in Rice Pudding. Work has now begun on a Horse Archer.
Turn 103, 300 BC: You have trained a Horse Archer in Sheepish. Work has now begun on The Statue of Zeus.
Turn 103, 300 BC: You have trained Buddhist Missionary in Thessalonica. Work has now begun on a Horse Archer.
Turn 103, 300 BC: You have trained Buddhist Missionary in Sea Horse. Work has now begun on a Horse Archer.
Turn 103, 300 BC: Nabu-rimanni (Great Scientist) has been born in Bursa (Napoleon)!
Turn 103, 300 BC: Buddhism has spread in Konya.

Turn 104, 275 BC: Golden Sands can hurry Horse Archer for 2⇴ with 18ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 16 turns.
Turn 104, 275 BC: Thessalonica can hurry Horse Archer for 1⇴ with 14ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 34 turns.
Turn 104, 275 BC: Sea Horse can hurry Horse Archer for 1⇴ with 14ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 54 turns.
Turn 104, 275 BC: Bacon Sandwich has grown to size 5.
Turn 104, 275 BC: Golden Sands will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 104, 275 BC: Sheepish will grow to size 9 on the next turn.
Turn 104, 275 BC: Constantinople will grow to size 13 on the next turn.
Turn 104, 275 BC: Cornish Cow will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 104, 275 BC: Thessalonica will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 104, 275 BC: You have discovered Paper!
Turn 104, 275 BC: The Statue of Zeus has been built in a far away land!

Turn 105, 250 BC: Case Départ will become unhealthy on the next turn.
Turn 105, 250 BC: Sheepish has grown to size 9.
Turn 105, 250 BC: Constantinople has grown to size 13.
Turn 105, 250 BC: Cornish Cow has grown to size 6.
Turn 105, 250 BC: Thessalonica has grown to size 5.
Turn 105, 250 BC: Dye Hard can hurry Library for 2⇴ with 13ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 23 turns.
Turn 105, 250 BC: Alexander has 90 gold available for trade.
Turn 105, 250 BC: Will Trade Map: Huayna Capac
Turn 105, 250 BC: Case Départ will become unhealthy on the next turn.
Turn 105, 250 BC: Alexander has 90 gold available for trade.
Turn 105, 250 BC: Alexander is the worst enemy of Napoleon.
Turn 105, 250 BC: Napoleon is the worst enemy of Alexander.
Turn 105, 250 BC: Kublai Khan will trade Feudalism
Turn 105, 250 BC: Huayna Capac will trade Feudalism
Turn 105, 250 BC: Kublai Khan will trade Copper
Turn 105, 250 BC: Alexander will trade Sheep
Turn 105, 250 BC: Napoleon will trade Sheep
Turn 105, 250 BC: Will Trade Map: Huayna Capac
Turn 105, 250 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 24 ℤ for Constantinople.
Turn 105, 250 BC: Case Départ will grow to size 14 on the next turn.
Turn 105, 250 BC: Sea Horse will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 105, 250 BC: Dye Hard will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 105, 250 BC: Bacon Sandwich will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 105, 250 BC: Trumpster has completed The Hanging Gardens!
Turn 105, 250 BC: You have constructed The Hanging Gardens in Case Départ. Work has now begun on a Taoist Monastery.
Turn 105, 250 BC: Golden Sands can no longer work on The Statue of Zeus. The lost ℤ is converted into 9ℴ!
Turn 105, 250 BC: Sheepish can no longer work on The Statue of Zeus. The lost ℤ is converted into 20ℴ!
Turn 105, 250 BC: Constantinople can no longer work on The Statue of Zeus. The lost ℤ is converted into 2ℴ!
Turn 105, 250 BC: Trumpster has completed Mausoleum of Maussollos!
Turn 105, 250 BC: You have constructed Mausoleum of Maussollos in Constantinople. Work has now begun on a Market.
Turn 105, 250 BC: Cornish Cow can no longer work on Mausoleum of Maussollos. The lost ℤ is converted into 90ℴ!
Turn 105, 250 BC: Thessalonica can no longer work on Mausoleum of Maussollos. The lost ℤ is converted into 51ℴ!
Turn 105, 250 BC: Sea Horse can no longer work on Mausoleum of Maussollos. The lost ℤ is converted into 58ℴ!

Turn 106, 225 BC: Case Départ has grown to size 15.
Turn 106, 225 BC: Case Départ has become unhealthy.
Turn 106, 225 BC: Rice Pudding has grown to size 12.
Turn 106, 225 BC: Golden Sands has grown to size 5.
Turn 106, 225 BC: Sheepish has grown to size 10.
Turn 106, 225 BC: Constantinople has grown to size 14.
Turn 106, 225 BC: Cornish Cow has grown to size 7.
Turn 106, 225 BC: Thessalonica has grown to size 6.
Turn 106, 225 BC: Thessalonica can hurry Warrior for 1⇴ with 15ℤ overflow, 16ℴ added to the treasury, and +1⇤ for 32 turns.
Turn 106, 225 BC: Sea Horse has grown to size 7.
Turn 106, 225 BC: Dye Hard has grown to size 6.
Turn 106, 225 BC: Bacon Sandwich has grown to size 7.

 

[Doshin]

The save looks very nice. Good to see so many Cottages being worked.

There are 300H+ in Aachen and 200H+ in Vienna, with the SoZ now built. If you have an old save, we can work out whether either of these is the Shwedagon Pagoda. Otherwise, it'll be the Parthenon, Chichen Itza, or Pyramids. He doesn't seem to be building the AP.

Health in the cap is a bit tricky before Guilds. We need !

kcd sure loves to put Whales in the most awkward spots on the map.

 

[kossin]

At first glance from screenshot, it looks like the target cities are quite defended (capital especially).
I can look a bit later, but we might want to be a bit more conservative at first.

 

[kossin]

We can re-claim our Clams for 1

Mining Inc requires Coal to be hooked up as well so it may end up being more complicated than Sushi (not even considering the need for GE). We can rush-buy workboats for the ice ball cities that need to grab seafood. Only Tokugawa has Rice besides ourselves and we can see ~10 seafood not in our control at the moment.

Toku moved some of his units it seems (war elephant, notably). Seems possible to work with this position to get some of his core.

 

[pomthom]

Can't look at the save just yet so just a few comments on the fly.

I'm also in favour of finishing HG now.

I had considered the Mids when it turned out HC was building ToA but thought it was a too late investment to really payback. So yeah why not for PS but I don't think it justifies delaying OU. What about building them in Constantinople? Not sure how many forests we've got left.

Dosh has a point about treasury VS Cuirs date management. Would we consider upgrading HAs/Phants if we have some leftover cash to compensate for not turning the slider up sooner?

Will take a look at the save for thoughts on Corp objective.


BTW about the Ironclad: not sure if the plan is to kill it but there's a way not to by settling a city 1S2W of it (when borders pop the clad moves in to bombard, leaving room for a single Galley on a fort to unload 2 Cuirs per turn)

 

[kossin]

^^Duckweed pointed out we can chain cities/forts all the way through the middle of the empire if we want to move ships near the Ironclad. There are just enough water tiles spaced about to allow it. However if we don't have to kill it, it's certainly easier to use your way.

 

[Duckweed]

There are 300H+ in Aachen and 200H+ in Vienna, with the SoZ now built. If you have an old save, we can work out whether either of these is the Shwedagon Pagoda. Otherwise, it'll be the Parthenon, Chichen Itza, or Pyramids. He doesn't seem to be building the AP.

My impression is that AIs give more priority on AP than other wonders. I do have previous saves, but I'm afraid that AlanH is not happy for uploading live save into this thread. I could post the screenshot instead or just the number of EP cost to sabotage the build.

Health in the cap is a bit tricky before Guilds. We need !

Constantinople won't grow, capital needs quite a few turns to grow, we can also take back the clam when needed. We might also need to whip univ in capital. Not a problem in the near future.

At first glance from screenshot, it looks like the target cities are quite defended (capital especially).
I can look a bit later, but we might want to be a bit more conservative at first.

Condar's defense remains as T103, Aksum is defended by 2 archers only, with a WE and 2 cats wandering around. We might not be able to take Condar in the 3rd turn, but capturing Aksum in the 2nd turn is for sure.

Mining Inc requires Coal to be hooked up as well so it may end up being more complicated than Sushi (not even considering the need for GE). We can rush-buy workboats for the ice ball cities that need to grab seafood. Only Tokugawa has Rice besides ourselves and we can see ~10 seafood not in our control at the moment.

Forts are better way to send WB and fleet north.

I had considered the Mids when it turned out HC was building ToA but thought it was a too late investment to really payback. So yeah why not for PS but I don't think it justifies delaying OU. What about building them in Constantinople? Not sure how many forests we've got left.

Not delaying OU, but university because the bottleneck of OU is the universities in other cities. they can't complete universities without whipping. Constantinople only has 4 forests left.

Dosh has a point about treasury VS Cuirs date management. Would we consider upgrading HAs/Phants if we have some leftover cash to compensate for not turning the slider up sooner?

There are still a lots of techs ahead, so I'd prefer to use cash to fuel the research.

BTW about the Ironclad: not sure if the plan is to kill it but there's a way not to by settling a city 1S2W of it (when borders pop the clad moves in to bombard, leaving room for a single Galley on a fort to unload 2 Cuirs per turn)

This is surely a good way, if the Ironclad is going to bombard.

 

[pomthom]

^^Duckweed pointed out we can chain cities/forts all the way through the middle of the empire if we want to move ships near the Ironclad. There are just enough water tiles spaced about to allow it. However if we don't have to kill it, it's certainly easier to use your way.

Yes I know, just another way to see it. My idea is maybe cheaper in hammers and Worker turns but maybe slower (and at a time where hammers and worker turns won't be an issue so maybe not relevant).

Will have to judge when the time comes. EDIT: xpost with Duckweed

BTW how can we have some visibility on what's hiding there?

 

[kossin]

^^^
Vision unit will give us an extra tile of visibility.

@Duckweed
I am speaking in general, there are some seafood which can't be reached by chaining forts as I recall. In those cases, a short stint into Universal Suffrage at the last moment will be the fastest way to solve the problem.

 

[Duckweed]

It seems to me that capital is better to work on those cottages rather than hiring scientists.

Constantinople hires 7 merchants and BS hires 5 merchants. Dye hard could also starts to hire specialists. Not a complicate GP plan as I see.

The GPPs accumulated iafter 1st GA and the possible order of GPs would be something like

Constantinople: 80 + 63*11 = 773 -400 (4th GP) = 373 GPPs left
Capital: 120 + (44 or 56(if hiring 1 sci)) * 11 + 22 = 626~758 - 500 (5th GP) = 126~258 GPPs left
BS: 45*11 = 495 , it is going to generate 6th or 7th GP depending on when we could launch the 2nd GA.

If we want 2nd GA soon, then we have to hope that the 4th and 5th GPs won't be 2 GAs. What if we get a GE?

It looks the earliest GP that Dye Hard could produce is the 8th or 9th GP (800GPPs). Like BS, Dye Hard could produce 495 GPPs in the 2nd GA. Do we want to commit?

Another thing is about the stack composition. As doshin and kossin suggested before, we could send 2 woodmanII axes to join the HAs stack for Askum and Condar.

Shall we stop using test game? The micro becomes quite tedious in this stage.

 

[Doshin]

My impression is that AIs give more priority on AP than other wonders. I do have previous saves, but I'm afraid that AlanH is not happy for uploading live save into this thread. I could post the screenshot instead or just the number of EP cost to sabotage the build.

Yes, you are right about the AP (both that it is possible, and that the AI prioritize it).

Could you post the T104 EP screens for Aachen and Vienna? There's no need to upload the intermediary save.

----

The war effort looks good to go.

I am not sure whether Thessalonica will need a second defender. The AI sometimes leave their stacks next to (or attack) barb cities, even when they are getting pummeled in a war. But leaving Slavery means that we cannot whip an emergency defender, so we'll need to be careful here. Toku's latest Silk city may also have a Chariot or HArcher. Aggressive AI are happier to leave their cities weakly defended in order to attack.

We could also delay Caste/Pacifism, to stay in Organized Religion and Slavery for 5 more turns. There are several possible whips (Libraries in Dye Hard/Bacon Sandwich; Market in Sheepish) and the OF would then go into Universities. Case Départ, meanwhile, is building the Mids and the timetable looks tight. Will this screw up the GP plan?

BTW about the Ironclad: not sure if the plan is to kill it but there's a way not to by settling a city 1S2W of it (when borders pop the clad moves in to bombard, leaving room for a single Galley on a fort to unload 2 Cuirs per turn)

I think this is a very good idea, especially if we opt for Sushi > Mining Inc. Otherwise we are going to need a small army of Caravels to dislodge it. We can test behavior closer to the time.

^^^
Vision unit will give us an extra tile of visibility.

Can this see over the Ice tiles?

 

[Duckweed]

I am not sure whether Thessalonica will need a second defender. The AI sometimes leave their stacks next to (or attack) barb cities, even when they are getting pummeled in a war. But leaving Slavery means that we cannot whip an emergency defender, so we'll need to be careful here. Toku's latest Silk city may also have a Chariot or HArcher. Aggressive AI are happier to leave their cities weakly defended in order to attack.

RP is pumping HA continuously, those HAs will go via the north and south route, so it won't be a problem of defense.

We could also delay Caste/Pacifism, to stay in Organized Religion and Slavery for 5 more turns. There are several possible whips (Libraries in Dye Hard/Bacon Sandwich; Market in Sheepish) and the OF would then go into Universities. Case Départ, meanwhile, is building the Mids and the timetable looks tight. Will this screw up the GP plan?

Whipping BS and DH will hurt the GP production. There are still quite a few forests in many cities to be chopped into universities. We could time the chop done in the last turn of GA so that they can whip immediately after the GA.

T104 EP screenshots

Spoiler :

 

[kossin]

Ice tiles don't block view, else we wouldn't have any vision whatsoever in the top right corner. See Churchill location in SGOTM17 as well.

Fine to scrap test game, it's just to give an idea really at this point.

 

[Doshin]

Aachen: T104 ---> T106

225H ----> 309H (i.e. 42HPT)

Spoiler :

Aachen: FPs x 4, FFP x 1, Pigs x 1, Silk x 1, Cow x 1, PH x 3, GH x 1

Marble/Stone = 23HPT * 2.75 = 63HPT

Augsberg could well work one of the FPs, so the base should likely be higher. Since the investment only increased by 42HPT, this is probably building the AP.




Vienna: T104 ---> T106

126H ---> 214H (i.e. 44HPT)

Spoiler :

Wheat x 1, Cow x 1, Plains Cottages x 2, Iron x 1, PH x 1 (1H from ToA)

Marble/Stone = 16HPT * 2.75 = 46HPT

One of the Parthenon, Chichen Itza, or Pyramids, then. This could reach 500H in 6–7 turns without a chop or whip.

 

[pomthom]

One of the Parthenon, Chichen Itza, or Pyramids, then. This could reach 500H in 6–7 turns without a chop or whip.

It's very common for AIs to whip wonders (discovered that when I was testing Oracle dates at the start of the game)

 

[Doshin]

Our capital has 25H base if it works the Grassland Hill > farmed Plains.

= 62HPT in Bureaucracy/Pacifism for Stone wonder

62 * 8 = 480H
62 * 9 = 558H​

If we chop the Forest (24H??) that would contribute some more hammers (60H??):

62 * 7 = 434
+ 60H​

= 494/500H

Working a mined PH > GH contributes +3HPT, so we could build it in 7 turns that way.

^^^^ untested.

It is still not guaranteed, unless HC changes civics. As pomthom says, the AI has no issue with whipping wonders. Asoka whipped TGW for 3-pop.

 

[Doshin]

Well, we can start it anyway. If Vienna is still building a wonder in four turns, we can recheck the EP screen and exclude the Parthenon. ~300G for failing it would be fine as well.

The University doesn't need to be started immediately, and the last Forest doesn't need to be chopped. Universities outside the capital are the limiting factor for Oxford, as you say.

 

[Duckweed]

PPP to T109

Starts GA, switch to Bureaucracy + CS + Pacifism

Tech: Edu. GS will bulb on T107, partial slider to finish Edu, then 0% on Nat.

War Plan

The stack on Dye Hard: 19 HAs + 2 woodman Axes -> Aksum->Condar
The stack on Constantinople 1WE + 1 Cata + 5 Axes + HAs from RP behind -> Lalibela

Worker direction:

2 workers in capital will finish connecting the road and then cottage the plain tile in Sheepish, another worker will cottage the last GH tile

2 workers in Cornish cow will cottages

2 workers in BS will farm the grassland tile in Golden sands and another worker will cottage

1 worker in Dye Hard will cottage the GH tile next.

2 workers in Sea Horse will cottage the grassland tile and then the jungle tiles

2 workers around Thessa will cottage

GP production

Constantinople -- 7 merchants
BS -- 5 merchants
Dye Hard -- 2 merchants from start. will add more once it grows.

City Build

Capital -- mids
Cornish Cow -- Parth
Golden sands -- 2 warriors/Parth
Thessa -- warrior->Market
RP -- will produce a stable when the OF is enough to complete it in 1 turn, otherwise HAs
All other cities will continue on their current build and then switch to University on T108, Except that capital remains on mids and RP remains on HAs

The 6 cities that unlock the OU are capital, Sheepish, Constantinople, Thessa, Cornish Cow, SeaHorse.

One thing is not clear, shall we build Market/university in Golden Sands?

Edit: If team prefer to finish mids earlier and safer, I could send a worker to chop the forest instead of cottage.

 

[kossin]

Golden Sands seems a bit irrelevant due to its food supply. Fail gold is probably better there if possible.