SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

We will need to settle the northern Fish (edit: Crabs? West of the Whale) site ~T135, or else spend some late turns in Universal Suffrage.

It's fine to switch to US in late stage as long as we are in GA. However, the coastal city required to attack the barbarian city need to be settled as soon as possible so that it could build a galley for itself. We can't wait very late to capture the city.

The current Fort stickies should be removed. The plan could only work by gifting Adulis to Tokugawa before we found the Fish Island:

Yes, those forts are no longer valid after Folket proved with a test.

Spoiler :


A Galley would need to be in Adulis, and we'd have to check that it would be teleported 2N5E.

There is a good chance the Galley will be teleported west and, since we will need ~80 Worker turns to build the necessary Forts, I think I'd just prefer to settle the northern Fish/Crabs city earlier.

Another problem is that Forts need to be in friendly territory to be accessed, so all the NE Ice tiles will need our culture (or that of an AI with OBs).


Let's give up the fort plan


There are lots of short- and long-term economic techs. Printing Press will add 30-40CPT. Banking will add ~100C per turn in Representation (~20 cities * 6 = 120, minus one foreign trade route). Emancipation would double Cottage growth, Corporation offer +1 trade route per city.

T130 3rd GA does not help to get PP earlier since it'll done before that. Unless we want to beeline to Bank immediately, Getting Banking is decided by AIs or our war progress mostly. That why I said T130 GA won't have any impact on any important tech.


The total yield of extra citizens (delaying the Taj by 5 turns) would mean that we will need to have as many new citizens in the last five turns of the final GA (T155-T159) as we would have had in the final "free" turn of a GA started on T155. That will not happen.

The difference of 3rd GA from T130 and from T135 is difference of the extra GA yield of empire from T130-T135, vs T141-T145. If there are average of 20 more citizens working from T141-T145 than T131-T135, then the yield from a later GA beats the extra turn of GA on T130 (~100 tiles). My writing looks wield:p.


The flexibility argument for civic switches is fair enough. OTOH, reaching Democracy sooner is another source of flexibility.


Forge first adds 5HPT and takes 4 turns to build. After that, the Monastery takes 2 turns to build. We gain 10H in those two turns. Invert this, and the Monastery (finished in two turns) contributes 40B while we build a forge (finished in 4 turns).

40 :science: > 10 :hammers: for me.

Make sense from numbers. However, remember what I quoted? If the war progress is more likely to be the bottleneck, then 40B is less important than 10H, which might speedup a Cui.

The reason why I start to worry about the war progress is because we have to win by either domination or conquest. Since we can't war with 2 AIs in the same time and in the near future, assume each AI takes 10 turns, then 4 AIs need ~40 turns, that's almost T170.
 
@Duckweed

With the Taj, we can argue it backwards and forth. So let's just delay it, if you feel strongly. This will free up more Workers for Cuirassiers.

I had thought about settling the Crabs city early, to build a WB and then whip the Galley. A few Forts would be needed along the Ice Coast. I'm not sure whether we'll be in Slavery again, though.

I had considered your post about hammers, but to argue that 4B = 1H seems extreme to me. The additional beakers could, for instance, justify our whipping away basic Cottages in another border city.


@pomthom: minor things

  • Pillage the Cottages around Tokugawa's razed city.
  • Remember to grow Rice Pudding this turn (borrow the Plains Farm from the capital?). I agree with maximizing OF. I don't know, but perhaps working the Lakes will delay the University by a turn and maximize this?
  • It would be useful to scout Kublai's border cities ASAP. If he has stacked by us, we could consider a bribe.
There are a few trade combinations. If we have to trade Music + Philosophy to Kublai for Engineering, we could always just gift Music to HC. Our power may be too great for HC to attack us, though.

In any case, the HC is probably going to Guilds, and Education would take quite a few turns to research if he gets Paper.
 
Actually, what about building a Chariot in Rice Pudding on T123, and then putting the OF into a Horse Archer on T124, which becomes a Cuirassier?

The Chariot would be our Super Medic, and can be upgraded for 0G to a Cuirassier.
 
Mini-PPP T120-T124 final draft v2 - READY TO PLAY when I have a go from team

General comments
- I'll whip Forges in CC, Thess and SH switch to HA, complete Forge and bank hammers on wealth like suggested. Not 100% sure about SH since whip anger is already heavy there (although whipping Forge is "happy neutral" because of +1:)) and it means whipping 3 GL cotts
- I can't prepare a Cuir whip in BS and DH since I'll be running max scientists and therefore will be nowhere near 25H in HA
- I favor Forge in Case Depart because I prefer switching to HA/Cuirs after Forge rather than Monastery at this point because of sooner Cuirs
- Uni in Rice pudding will actually be quite hard to complete in 2 turns without OR bonus. I prefer building it in 3 turns, with some OF to bank for 1 turn Chariot is good suggestion - also allows to grow RP this turn
- I wouldn't trade Paper to HC just yet (or anyone actually) because with bad RNG he can go straight to Edu/Lib after that (which would be a set back for us). Keeping monopoly on Paper keeps him more the 2 techs away​

Still unsure
- Taj. Doshin is for building it during current GA by delaying FP, Duckweed is for delaying Taj and give up the extra turn bug. I was for one, then the other, and now I don't know :mischief: - in any case I don't think this has to be decided before we are back in OR T125
- Machinery: do you still think we can trade Paper with risk of unlucky early Lib?​


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Civics

T120: switch to Caste System + Pacifism
T125: switch to Police State + Slavery + Organized Religion


GPP

Constantinople: 1 Spy and 6 Scientists (switch to 1 Spy, 1 Engineer, 5 Scientists when Forge?)

For DH and BS if we have to starve, is it bad to work only +3F tiles and specialists until 1 turn from losing 1 pop then re-balancing food surplus so that we don't lose the pop? I belive this maximizes GPP locally. However we might not want to starve them?

Dye Hard: 7 Merchants for 4 turns (23F and -5 FPT), then 5 Merchants for 1 turn
Bacon Sandwich: 8 Merchants for 3 turns (23F and -7 FPT), then 5 Merchants for 1 turn (2F and -1 FPT), then 4 Merchants for 1 turn (1F and +1 FPT)

If not how many should I run?


Workers

Mostly chopping.



City builds (approximate)
Spoiler :
Turn Case Depart Rice Pudding Golden Sands Sheepish Constantinople Cornish Cow Thessalonica Sea Horse Dye Hard Bacon Sandwich Aksum Gondar Lalibela Adulis Addis Ababa
120 Forge University Fail Forge Forge Whip Forge, HA Whip Forge, HA Whip Forge, HA Market Market FP Forge Forge Galley
121 Forge University Fail Forge Forge Complete Forge Complete Forge Complete Forge Market Market FP Forge Forge Settler
122 Forge University Fail Market Market Wealth Wealth Wealth Market Market FP Forge Forge Settler
123 Forge Chariot Fail HA Market Wealth Wealth Wealth Market Market FP Forge Forge Settler Culture
124 HA HA HA Market HA Wealth Wealth Wealth Market Market FP Forge Forge Settler CH

Troops

Sentry HA explores SW
Combat I HA on Corn 1NW of Lalibela scouts Kublai
Combat III HA 1SW of Barb city gets into position to steal Toku (where? I'd say 2S2W of Yeha for max range)
Combat III HA (wounded) 1S2W of Constantinople moves 1S on forest then heals waiting for a double Worker steal attack simultaneously with above HA
Other HAs regroup in Lalibela to heal, next turn some will be healed and can pillage cottages around razed city
Question: Axes-Cata stack stay where they are for Yeha assault?
Question: What to do with WII Axe 1S of Constantinople
 
@Duckweed

With the Taj, we can argue it backwards and forth. So let's just delay it, if you feel strongly. This will free up more Workers for Cuirassiers.

Not very strongly,;) as I mentioned, the yield of both way is not a big difference. However, I usually prefer a more flexible way.

I had thought about settling the Crabs city early, to build a WB and then whip the Galley. A few Forts would be needed along the Ice Coast. I'm not sure whether we'll be in Slavery again, though.

That's a good idea, there are also some forests around the barbarian city to be chopped if we want.


I had considered your post about hammers, but to argue that 4B = 1H seems extreme to me. The additional beakers could, for instance, justify our whipping away basic Cottages in another border city.
I have no strong preference of this. Pomthom also suggested skipping monastery and a Cui straight.
 
Combat I HA on Corn 1NW of Lalibela scouts Kublai
Combat III HA 1SW of Barb city gets into position to steal Toku (where? I'd say 2S2W of Yeha for max range)
Combat III HA (wounded) 1S2W of Constantinople moves 1S on forest then heals waiting for a double Worker steal attack simultaneously with above HA
Other HAs regroup in Lalibela to heal, next turn some will be healed and can pillage cottages around razed city
Question: Axes-Cata stack stay where they are for Yeha assault?
Question: What to do with WII Axe 1S of Constantinople

I'm considering upgrading 1 or 2 combat HA to Cui and take Yeha on T126 so that we can have Wine when attacking KK. The woodman II axe is for worker stealing in south, you could send 1 HA together.

We don't need trade the tech before T125.
 
For Dye Hard and BS, just don't starve away any population in the next 5 turns. 3F tiles should always be worked, all 1F tiles should be devoted to Specialists.

We don't need to trade techs in the immediate future, so only update if the AI tech situation changes (or an AI has more than 60–80G for trade).

After we have scouted Kublai, we can think about Horse Archer movement. We may be able to declare with ~6 Cuirassiers ready to invade and Horse Archers there to mop up. It really depends on our unit flow and whether Kublai has his stack by Huayna.

There are a few roads that would be helpful: e.g. 1SW of Addis Ababa, 2W of Dye Hard. We won't need these for ~8 turns, but perhaps you will find a way to incorporate them into general Worker movement.

Good luck/have fun. :D
 
Going well (a few minor and stupid suboptimal moves on worker micro but what can you do at this point :mischief:)

T121: Angkor Wat was built in HC's capitole, a bit more fail :gold:

T122: Alex demanded we declare war on Napoleon, I declined without consulting the team

T123: we get this demand




The only reason we might consider refusing is that it might piss off Alex (with whom we are Pleased). What do you think?
I say yield
 
Nappy is now pleased.

Good news: KK just built the Great Lighthouse :D :assimilate:

Nappy just finished Theo, making HC willing to trade it (he just finished Engineering we don't see his next tech yet)
Spoiler :


HC also built the Hagia
 
Isn't that ~68H before modifiers?

That would lose 8H.
 
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