pomthom
Drive & Reverb
I'll make an estimate
SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I'll make an estimate
After the DOW, we can also bribe Alex to join.
I can't remember when Nappy made the demand on us, we need be aware about him. Make a demand on him before the peace treaty is gone. KK has enough to bribe him.
Edit: The north cities have more units than expected (4 units in the city plus 1 HA on the way, and maybe 1 more unit next turn), let's draw a couple more Cuis from the west stack to north stack.
I can't remember when Nappy made the demand on us, we need be aware about him. Make a demand on him before the peace treaty is gone. KK has enough to bribe him.
Edit: The north cities have more units than expected (4 units in the city plus 1 HA on the way, and maybe 1 more unit next turn), let's draw a couple more Cuis from the west stack to north stack.
(A) GPP
Turn
Case Depart
Constantinople
Dye Hard
Bacon Sandwich
131 48/800 (base = +14GPP) 107/800 (base = +4GPP) 459/800 (base = +0GPP) 621/800 (base = +0GPP)
Rough guide to food/pop:
CD = +4FPT @ size 16 (size 16 now)
Co = +14FPT @ size 11 (size 11 now)
DH = +9FPT @ size 9 (size 8 now)
BS = +9FPT @ size 10 (size 7 now)
(B) Golden Age/Pacifism
----
Dye Hard is about 300GPP short of a GM for Sushi. There is time to spare, and the Parthenon could boost Great People here.
The above numbers are a general guide, as before.
Bacon Sandwich is most important: a Great Merchant needs ~10 turns to travel from here to a decent AI city. If we leave it too late, the war situation will be too tense. Engineering will shave a few turns off travel time.
It would be nice to chop a Market in BS and DH before we start running Merchants again.
Dye Hard should convert one Grass Cottage to a Farm, so that it has +10F and can run 5 Merchants without losing food (since it will need to do this for 15–20 turns).
Spoiler :
131 48/800 (base = +14GPP) 107/800 (base = +4GPP) 459/800 (base = +0GPP) 621/800 (base = +0GPP)
Rough guide to food/pop:
CD = +4FPT @ size 16 (size 16 now)
Co = +14FPT @ size 11 (size 11 now)
DH = +9FPT @ size 9 (size 8 now)
BS = +9FPT @ size 10 (size 7 now)
(B) Golden Age/Pacifism
(1) Bacon Sandwich
(3 * 3) * 6 = 54GPP per turn, with 6 Merchants
(3 * 3) * 7 = 63GPP per turn, with 7 Merchants
54 + 63 + 63
= 180GPP, so ~ 3 turns to generate a Great Merchant
(2) Constantinople
(3 * 3) * 7 = 63 + 12 (wonders) = 75GPP per turn
~10 turns to 900GPP. Run Great Scientists?
(3) Case Départ
14 * 4 = 56GPP per turn
(3 * 4) * 2 = 24GPP per turn
= 80GPP per turn, running 2 Great Scientists
~10 turns to 900GPP. Should be slower than Constantinople, so that it grabs the 1000GP guy.
(4) Dye Hard
(3 * 3) * 5 = 45GPP per turn, with 5 Merchants
45 * 10 = 450GPP
459 + 450 = 909GPP
(3 * 3) * 6 = 54GPP per turn, with 6 Merchants
(3 * 3) * 7 = 63GPP per turn, with 7 Merchants
54 + 63 + 63
= 180GPP, so ~ 3 turns to generate a Great Merchant
(2) Constantinople
(3 * 3) * 7 = 63 + 12 (wonders) = 75GPP per turn
~10 turns to 900GPP. Run Great Scientists?
(3) Case Départ
14 * 4 = 56GPP per turn
(3 * 4) * 2 = 24GPP per turn
= 80GPP per turn, running 2 Great Scientists
~10 turns to 900GPP. Should be slower than Constantinople, so that it grabs the 1000GP guy.
(4) Dye Hard
(3 * 3) * 5 = 45GPP per turn, with 5 Merchants
45 * 10 = 450GPP
459 + 450 = 909GPP
----
Dye Hard is about 300GPP short of a GM for Sushi. There is time to spare, and the Parthenon could boost Great People here.
The above numbers are a general guide, as before.
Bacon Sandwich is most important: a Great Merchant needs ~10 turns to travel from here to a decent AI city. If we leave it too late, the war situation will be too tense. Engineering will shave a few turns off travel time.
It would be nice to chop a Market in BS and DH before we start running Merchants again.
Dye Hard should convert one Grass Cottage to a Farm, so that it has +10F and can run 5 Merchants without losing food (since it will need to do this for 15–20 turns).
2 turns are left.
----
Adulis needs to build the Workboat on T132. Do you have an Axe moving towards our Galley?
I am sure you have seen that we can steal a barbarian Worker quite easily.
Thinking about our Ice cities:
With the suggested layout, we need one of the two cities to reach 100
. Otherwise any boats built in Crabs will be unable to use a Fort 1SW of the Whale.
If the eastern city received a religion and built culture, with Stonehenge, it'd generate 67CPT. Let's say ~15 turns before any Galleys can cross the Whale.
With an Artist Specialist (instead of working an Ice Mine while building Culture) it could generate 78CPT. That would need ~13 turns, before the Galleys can move from Crab City ---> Whales. So ~17 turns before we unload the first Cuirassiers.
Mercantilism would speed things up (1012CPT), but we will not switch for at least 10 turns.
So, two points:
An alternate way to move the Ironclad is as follows:
The Ironclad constantly uses its two moves. 1W, then 1E.
If we move a WB, the Ironclad attacks and then seems to stop for the turn.
On the next turn, it uses both its moves. 1E, then 1W.
Another test, comparing us and the AI:
Others can test the barb behavior, if you'd like.
Spoiler :
With the suggested layout, we need one of the two cities to reach 100
. Otherwise any boats built in Crabs will be unable to use a Fort 1SW of the Whale.If the eastern city received a religion and built culture, with Stonehenge, it'd generate 67CPT. Let's say ~15 turns before any Galleys can cross the Whale.
With an Artist Specialist (instead of working an Ice Mine while building Culture) it could generate 78CPT. That would need ~13 turns, before the Galleys can move from Crab City ---> Whales. So ~17 turns before we unload the first Cuirassiers.
Mercantilism would speed things up (1012CPT), but we will not switch for at least 10 turns.
So, two points:
- We need a Settler for this city ASAP.
- Or we could consider settling 1W of this dotmap instead?
An alternate way to move the Ironclad is as follows:
Spoiler :
The Ironclad constantly uses its two moves. 1W, then 1E.
If we move a WB, the Ironclad attacks and then seems to stop for the turn.
On the next turn, it uses both its moves. 1E, then 1W.
Another test, comparing us and the AI:
Spoiler :
Others can test the barb behavior, if you'd like.
The Crab city could be moved 1E of the dotmap too.
In any case, 100 is very difficult for small/poor cities, without the Sistine Chapel and Mercantilism. Ships can't pass through Forts in neutral territory, and capturing the barb city is going to be a drawn out process (load/unload/move to city/build a stack/capture/wait for it to leave revolt/improve... etc).
----
If the Ironclad bombards a city, does it consistently park next to the city? Or will it move back 1E occasionally, blocking our access to the Ice corner every other turn?
I haven't tested this behavior. I think pomthom did?
In any case, 100
is very difficult for small/poor cities, without the Sistine Chapel and Mercantilism. Ships can't pass through Forts in neutral territory, and capturing the barb city is going to be a drawn out process (load/unload/move to city/build a stack/capture/wait for it to leave revolt/improve... etc).----
If the Ironclad bombards a city, does it consistently park next to the city? Or will it move back 1E occasionally, blocking our access to the Ice corner every other turn?
I haven't tested this behavior. I think pomthom did?
^
My original thought was 2 settlers to fill the gap, not a huge sink to our economy due to GLH and TC.
An alternative way is settle the crab site 1E if that site can still produce WB and galley (Need test).
My original thought was 2 settlers to fill the gap, not a huge sink to our economy due to GLH and TC.
An alternative way is settle the crab site 1E if that site can still produce WB and galley (Need test).
Oh true, that would work. It is one more Settler to build.
Are we set on using the city culture to lure the Ironclad out of its current location? I ask because sacrificing a WB seems to move it permanently 1W.
Ideally we could drop Cuirassiers onto the Ice tile every turn, since we will only have ~2 Galleys.
----
BTW, if we ignore Hung-Nsia, the chop 2W of the Tundra Horse will go into a Whale city, won't it?
24H (30H in Police State) is half/most of a Galley. We could capture the barb city after.
Are we set on using the city culture to lure the Ironclad out of its current location? I ask because sacrificing a WB seems to move it permanently 1W.
Ideally we could drop Cuirassiers onto the Ice tile every turn, since we will only have ~2 Galleys.
----
BTW, if we ignore Hung-Nsia, the chop 2W of the Tundra Horse will go into a Whale city, won't it?
24H (30H in Police State) is half/most of a Galley. We could capture the barb city after.
^
I think the culture trick is pretty good, even the Ironclad remove all the culture, it will regrow the next turn and lure the Ironclad back.
1 galley should be enough for the job, we just need to ship a few more times. I don't think the defense in the barbarian city would be very tough.
Hung-Nsia is not a bad city and we can take it soon. We can delay the settlement of the gateway city and wait the galley from crab site.
Just tested this and it works. Those ice tiles are considered as water tiles.
I think the culture trick is pretty good, even the Ironclad remove all the culture, it will regrow the next turn and lure the Ironclad back.
1 galley should be enough for the job, we just need to ship a few more times. I don't think the defense in the barbarian city would be very tough.
Hung-Nsia is not a bad city and we can take it soon. We can delay the settlement of the gateway city and wait the galley from crab site.
Just tested this and it works. Those ice tiles are considered as water tiles.
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
Sounds good
Sure about the Plains Farm.
The quickest Taj date I can get is T136 by working Horse + Mines for 5 turns... (delaying the chop until T135)
T131: Taj (441/700) working Horse + 2*Mines + Plains Forest, 13 base * 2.25 = 29
T132: Taj (470/700) working Horse + 2*Mines + Plains Forest, 13 base * 2.25 = 29
T133: Taj (499/700) working Horse + 2*Mines + Plains Forest, 13 base * 2.25 = 29
T134: 3pop whip Cuir (6/100) but still work Horse + 2*Mines, 6 + (90 + 11) * 1.5 = 157, OF: (157 - 100)/1.5 = 38
T135: Taj (528/700) get chop + OF working Horse + 2*Mines, (11 base + 30 chop + 38 OF) * 2.25 = 177
T136: Taj (705/700)
This means Adulis needs to switch to WB now and work GL Forest from Gondar
Ok about diplo.
How many more troops for North? (currently 11)
Yes Galley needs to be completed IBT 132 and 133Adulis needs to build the Workboat on T132. Do you have an Axe moving towards our Galley?
I am sure you have seen that we can steal a barbarian Worker quite easily.
An Axe will be in F&S T132
Worker steal: yes of course
however if there are wandering LBs near the tundra forests I'll have to use another Cuir to protect the roading Workers (which we can then use to capture Hung-Nsia)I don't remember testing the Ironclad behaviour after the city culture is 0% but I'm pretty sure it moves 1E and comes back 1W. If not, culture will grow back and the Ironclad will go back
Very interesting, worth testing (I had thought of settling a 3rd city too)
EDIT: xpost Duckweed
Tomorrow is weekend, do you want to play a few turns tonight?
I thought it was 10, make it 12 then.
I thought it was 10, make it 12 then.
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
Writing down thougts about next turns, if I'm not too slow I'll pay tonightTomorrow is weekend, do you want to play a few turns tonight?
I thought it was 10, make it 12 then.
Yes I said I opted for 11 rather than 10 since I could only gather 2*Lvl 4 + 1*Lvl 3 instead of the 4*Lvl 4 we wanted.
So for T131 we'll have a West/North distribution of 14/12
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
T131
Slider 0% Constitution (or partial slider?)
Cancel Deer deal with KK, demand tribute of Deer from Nappy
DoW KK, EDIT: bribe in Alex
Steal barb worker in North tundra after building road. If Worker moving on forest shows barb LB wandering nearby, bring in 2nd Cuir to protect it (we can choose from a 2 or 11 XP, suggestions? I'd say 11XP because it will probably attack East barb city)
------------------------
War logistics
Northern stack (12 Cuirs):
Western stack (14 Cuirs + Angry Nurse + rest of troops):
-------------------------
City builds
Taj:
Case Depart: takes back plains Farm from RP
Aksum: see Taj
Adulis: switches to WB this turn, working GL forest
Cornish Cow: switches to Market, grows to size 7 and 2pop whips Cuir
Thessalonica: whip now. OF in Market or Cuir?
Sheepish:whips now, OF in Spear
GS: grows on Cuirs, then whips Settler 5 -> 3
Slider 0% Constitution (or partial slider?)
Cancel Deer deal with KK, demand tribute of Deer from Nappy
DoW KK, EDIT: bribe in Alex
Steal barb worker in North tundra after building road. If Worker moving on forest shows barb LB wandering nearby, bring in 2nd Cuir to protect it (we can choose from a 2 or 11 XP, suggestions? I'd say 11XP because it will probably attack East barb city)
------------------------
War logistics
Northern stack (12 Cuirs):
T131: move entire stack 2E of Toledo
T132: take Murcia with minimum troops, the rest moves 2S of Salamanca
T133: take Salamanca
T132: take Murcia with minimum troops, the rest moves 2S of Salamanca
T133: take Salamanca
Western stack (14 Cuirs + Angry Nurse + rest of troops):
T131: move 1SE or 2S2E of Toledo
T132: take Toledo using in priority troops 2S2E of the city, move available units towards Barcelona
T133: take Barcelona
T132: take Toledo using in priority troops 2S2E of the city, move available units towards Barcelona
T133: take Barcelona
-------------------------
City builds
Taj:
Spoiler :
Case Depart: takes back plains Farm from RP
Aksum: see Taj
Adulis: switches to WB this turn, working GL forest
Cornish Cow: switches to Market, grows to size 7 and 2pop whips Cuir
Thessalonica: whip now. OF in Market or Cuir?
Sheepish:whips now, OF in Spear
GS: grows on Cuirs, then whips Settler 5 -> 3
Remember to bribe Alex to join, you can check which techs are the cheapest. I'd try to keep Machinery since it leads to Eng.
Thessa market next is fine
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
^ Yes but he doesn't have cash and I didn't want to lose the Deer (for 
in Case Depart). I can renegociate our deals with him to get the dear (for Corn) but if we have nothing else to demand he can be bribed...
in Case Depart). I can renegociate our deals with him to get the dear (for Corn) but if we have nothing else to demand he can be bribed...I'd favor raising the science slider again, since we will soon have city capture gold and I don't think there are any HArchers left to upgrade (well, worth upgrading).
I've a slight preference for 11XP Cuirassiers going to Kublai > barbs. AI cities have cultural defense, promotions, and more units.
Against the barbs, Combat I = ~91% odds, Combat II = ~96%, Combat III = ~97%.
If you can't demand Deer, you'll need to renegotiate some deals with Nappy. Cancel the Corn <----> 1GPT.
Thessalonica OF into another Cuirassier, while in Police State/Theocracy.
We don't need it immediately, but think about what cities will produce northern Settlers. We need several and could be out of Slavery in ~6 turns. (edit: I saw your note for GS)
GL.
I've a slight preference for 11XP Cuirassiers going to Kublai > barbs. AI cities have cultural defense, promotions, and more units.
Against the barbs, Combat I = ~91% odds, Combat II = ~96%, Combat III = ~97%.
If you can't demand Deer, you'll need to renegotiate some deals with Nappy. Cancel the Corn <----> 1GPT.
Thessalonica OF into another Cuirassier, while in Police State/Theocracy.
We don't need it immediately, but think about what cities will produce northern Settlers. We need several and could be out of Slavery in ~6 turns. (edit: I saw your note for GS)
GL.
1 unpromoted Cui kill the HA, 5 Cuis including 1 level 3 and level 4 to 1SW of Murcia. These Cuis will have 1 movement left after the battles.
^ Yes but he doesn't have cash and I didn't want to lose the Deer (for
Wait 1 or 2 turns, he is likely to have cash or gpt, trade the Deer with resource. Even not, we can cancel a resource deal and demand later.
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
Good.
