SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Finishing KK
Since KK has Optics, before taking Madrid, I'd move the galley away to avoid potential caravel. I'm not sure whether KK's galley will go for our net. Do we want to use the WB immediately or before peace to be safe?
As I circled, 1NE of Barcelona is the main point to rally.
About the build in Mycenian, it we plan to DOW Toku again in the near future to eliminate him, then it make sense to build granary since there are some grassland tiles can be irrigated. I think we should prepare to attack in ~5 turns, that's almost the time we finish the war with KK. We need about 3~4 Cuis for this war. 1 from RP + 1 from capital and 2 more from nearby.
AA should start a forge next turn and chop the forests into forge, it's a pretty good production city with abundant food.
RP could whip this turn.
About worker micro, you need to send some some workers back to capital and Sheepish, windmills on hill and chop the rest forests.
Spoiler :
Since KK has Optics, before taking Madrid, I'd move the galley away to avoid potential caravel. I'm not sure whether KK's galley will go for our net. Do we want to use the WB immediately or before peace to be safe?
As I circled, 1NE of Barcelona is the main point to rally.
About the build in Mycenian, it we plan to DOW Toku again in the near future to eliminate him, then it make sense to build granary since there are some grassland tiles can be irrigated. I think we should prepare to attack in ~5 turns, that's almost the time we finish the war with KK. We need about 3~4 Cuis for this war. 1 from RP + 1 from capital and 2 more from nearby.
AA should start a forge next turn and chop the forests into forge, it's a pretty good production city with abundant food.
RP could whip this turn.
About worker micro, you need to send some some workers back to capital and Sheepish, windmills on hill and chop the rest forests.
I think we can improve the Fish. Kublai doesn't have a Trireme, so we only have to worry about his Galley. It will have reasonable, but losing odds if we park our Galley on the Fish. It is the riskier option, for sure, but we can get ~15F out of it at the very least.
For H-S, I would attack this turn. The Combat III guys will receive 2XP, and can then promote to March. If all goes well, there will only be one defender.
We should ignore Tokugawa for the near future. The Spices will provide +1
and the Silver +1/+2 . Aksum is the only city suffering bad motherland happiness, and this will 3–pop whip a Cuirassier soon.
Should we move our Spy?
Why is our
slider at 0%? I have said a few times that it should be raised, given the number of Markets in production (and zero Libraries are being built). I really don't mind it staying at 0% if there is a reason, but haven't heard one yet... 
I agree with Duckweed's comments and war-plan, apart from warring against Tokugawa. There are better uses for Cuirassiers in the near future, two stacks are needed for the H-C war, and these ice cities will be a drag (could postpone the attack until ~T144).
For H-S, I would attack this turn. The Combat III guys will receive 2XP, and can then promote to March. If all goes well, there will only be one defender.
We should ignore Tokugawa for the near future. The Spices will provide +1
and the Silver +1/+2 . Aksum is the only city suffering bad motherland happiness, and this will 3–pop whip a Cuirassier soon.Should we move our Spy?
Why is our
slider at 0%? I have said a few times that it should be raised, given the number of Markets in production (and zero Libraries are being built). I really don't mind it staying at 0% if there is a reason, but haven't heard one yet... I agree with Duckweed's comments and war-plan, apart from warring against Tokugawa. There are better uses for Cuirassiers in the near future, two stacks are needed for the H-C war, and these ice cities will be a drag (could postpone the attack until ~T144).
I think we can improve the Fish. Kublai doesn't have a Trireme, so we only have to worry about his Galley. It will have reasonable, but losing odds if we park our Galley on the Fish. It is the riskier option, for sure, but we can get ~15F out of it at the very least.
What if Madrid produces a caravel? Usually AI start at least 1 once Optics is available.
For H-S, I would attack this turn. The Combat III guys will receive 2XP, and can then promote to March. If all goes well, there will only be one defender.
We should ignore Tokugawa for the near future. The Spices will provide +1
Aksum will grow pretty fast, 3~4 Cui to wipe our Toku won't have much effect on our war progress in the front. Moreover, Qoh is worth of keeping.
Should we move our Spy?
I think so.
Why is our
I don't mind whether to raise the slider now or later, the cash is only enough for Constitution now. The advantage of stopping research now is the flexibility. For instance, if Eng is available for trade, we might want to research Compass ourselves and try to twist Optics from KK.
I agree with Duckweed's comments and war-plan, apart from warring against Tokugawa. There are better uses for Cuirassiers in the near future, two stacks are needed for the H-C war, and these ice cities will be a drag (could postpone the attack until ~T144).
Qoh is good to keep and we can just raze the other one. The happiness issue will become more severe when the city grows bigger, and that hurts Askum a lot.
HC is weaker than KK, we have no problem of doing fork-attack.
For the Caravel threat, see if Kublai has produced one on T134. If he hasn't, we only have to worry about the Galley. Our stack will threaten Madrid and he will switch to a defensive unit (T134/5).
Aksum will 3–pop whip, and then it grows pretty fast, but we'll have +3 from Spices and Silver. I am fine for us to attack Toku later, in about 10 turns.
HC will have fewer troops but tough cities:
A few other thoughts:
Aksum will 3–pop whip, and then it grows pretty fast, but we'll have +3
from Spices and Silver. I am fine for us to attack Toku later, in about 10 turns.HC will have fewer troops but tough cities:
Spoiler :
A few other thoughts:
- AA shouldn't whip for a while. Grow onto the improved FPs and Grass farms. Chopping a Forge is fine.
- We need Workers to road towards HC. If we capture these, great. If not, begin to move some from former Ethiopia in ~4 turns.
- Perhaps Lalibela could build a Spy > Cuirassier?
- As our Buddhist Missionary moves, make a note of Nappy's stack (in the city he captured from Alex) and any defenders in the Inca territory.
For the Caravel threat, see if Kublai has produced one on T134. If he hasn't, we only have to worry about the Galley. Our stack will threaten Madrid and he will switch to a defensive unit (T134/5).
That's why I suggested the following
Aksum will 3–pop whip, and then it grows pretty fast, but we'll have +3
Attack when we complete the war with KK is a better time since we suffer less from WW.
HC will have fewer troops but tough cities:
Spoiler :
A few other thoughts:
- AA shouldn't whip for a while. Grow onto the improved FPs and Grass farms. Chopping a Forge is fine.
- We need Workers to road towards HC. If we capture these, great. If not, begin to move some from former Ethiopia in ~4 turns.
- Perhaps Lalibela could build a Spy > Cuirassier?
- As our Buddhist Missionary moves, make a note of Nappy's stack (in the city he captured from Alex) and any defenders in the Inca territory.
Missionary could move into HC's border this turn. I think we should just gift it to HC immediately and let himself spread to his capital.
Edit: Since our capital is big enough to offer 2C trade route income to other cities, maybe we don't need to settle the island city and send the settler from Adulis to settle the fish site near the silver.
How's your new home? Ready to fight a war next?good progress
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
Hey guys, been busy today and can't play now because I need to rest after yesterday's 5am session 
I can play tomorrow to wrap up my set or someone can take over now if he's up for it.
@Doshin: about slider I had seen your comment but in fact we didn't have that much cash a few turns ago and unit maintenance rocketed as soon as we entered borders. Was hesitating and Duckweed advised to say at 0 for a few turns so decided to keep it down
I can play tomorrow to wrap up my set or someone can take over now if he's up for it.
@Doshin: about
slider I had seen your comment but in fact we didn't have that much cash a few turns ago and unit maintenance rocketed as soon as we entered borders. Was hesitating and Duckweed advised to say at 0 for a few turns so decided to keep it downAbout the GP production.
Doshin listed a detailed plan before.
I'm thinking whether we should let Dye Hard produce the next GP, the advantage is that DH will produce the GP before BS when both cities have enough GPPs in the same turn, therefore save the turns we need to stay on CS.
Constantinople should take the Corn back and grow while our 3rd GA is close.
Another thing that I'm thinking is whether we should keep the barbarian city, the major benefit of razing is to save the forests for the gateway site.
Doshin listed a detailed plan before.
I'm thinking whether we should let Dye Hard produce the next GP, the advantage is that DH will produce the GP before BS when both cities have enough GPPs in the same turn, therefore save the turns we need to stay on CS.
Constantinople should take the Corn back and grow while our 3rd GA is close.
Another thing that I'm thinking is whether we should keep the barbarian city, the major benefit of razing is to save the forests for the gateway site.
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
T133
Steal Barb worker next turn by moving northern Cuir 2SE this turn
Attack H-N this turn
Hide Galley in F&S until we know presence/absence of KK Caravel, move out to protect Fish if KK Galley approaches (why is that tile coastal by the way???)
Send the 2 Workers 1SW of GS to Case Depart/Sheepish
Send 2 Workers on the tundra forest North of BS down to chop in DH/BS
Questions:
slider: don't feel strongly about this. We don't benefit from an early Constitution and maybe our cash is better invested in GA buffed research?
Build something else than Settler and grow on Farm in Adulis until it can grab the Horse tile back? (T136) If so what to build? (Spear? Spy? Granary?)
Duckweed suggested whipping RP. I guess it's to get some OF going, why not do that with forest chop?
Do we forget about demanding something from Nappy?
Move Spy? I still feel a bit uneasy about this
------------------------
War logistics
Follow Duckweed's guidelines
-------------------------
City builds
Case Depart: Cuir
Rice Pudding: Cuir
Golden Sands: finish Cuir then 2pop whip Settler
Sheepish: Spears
Constantinople: Cuir after Market, will give cott tile 2N to SH so as to work the cott 1SW (12 turns to village, so +2C with PP bonus)
Cornish Cow: Market, 2-pop Cuir next turn (put OF in ??)
Thessalonica: whip now. OF in Cuir
Sea Horse: Market, switch cott 1S to village 1S2E from Const
DH/BS: grow on Markets
Aksum: Taj
Gondar: Forge, 3 pop whip in 3 turns
Lali: Cuir? (Doshin suggested spy)
Adulis: see above question, I'd build a Spy or Spear while growing on Farm until it can grab back Horse tile from Aksum
Addis Ababa: OF in Cuir, then Forge while growing on farms
Yeha: switch to Spy/Spear until Size 2 then whip Gran
Mycenae: chop x2 into Granary
Fish & Ships: Gran
Steal Barb worker next turn by moving northern Cuir 2SE this turn
Attack H-N this turn
Hide Galley in F&S until we know presence/absence of KK Caravel, move out to protect Fish if KK Galley approaches (why is that tile coastal by the way???)
Send the 2 Workers 1SW of GS to Case Depart/Sheepish
Send 2 Workers on the tundra forest North of BS down to chop in DH/BS
Questions:
slider: don't feel strongly about this. We don't benefit from an early Constitution and maybe our cash is better invested in GA buffed research? Build something else than Settler and grow on Farm in Adulis until it can grab the Horse tile back? (T136) If so what to build? (Spear? Spy? Granary?)
Duckweed suggested whipping RP. I guess it's to get some OF going, why not do that with forest chop?
Do we forget about demanding something from Nappy?
Move Spy? I still feel a bit uneasy about this
------------------------
War logistics
Follow Duckweed's guidelines
-------------------------
City builds
Case Depart: Cuir
Rice Pudding: Cuir
Golden Sands: finish Cuir then 2pop whip Settler
Sheepish: Spears
Constantinople: Cuir after Market, will give cott tile 2N to SH so as to work the cott 1SW (12 turns to village, so +2C with PP bonus)
Cornish Cow: Market, 2-pop Cuir next turn (put OF in ??)
Thessalonica: whip now. OF in Cuir
Sea Horse: Market, switch cott 1S to village 1S2E from Const
DH/BS: grow on Markets
Aksum: Taj
Spoiler :
Gondar: Forge, 3 pop whip in 3 turns
Lali: Cuir? (Doshin suggested spy)
Adulis: see above question, I'd build a Spy or Spear while growing on Farm until it can grab back Horse tile from Aksum
Addis Ababa: OF in Cuir, then Forge while growing on farms
Yeha: switch to Spy/Spear until Size 2 then whip Gran
Mycenae: chop x2 into Granary
Fish & Ships: Gran
T133
Questions:
Build something else than Settler and grow on Farm in Adulis until it can grab the Horse tile back? (T136) If so what to build? (Spear? Spy? Granary?)
Wealth. Will any infrastructures in this city get paid back in ~30 turns? Same as the spice city, if we can't farm some grassland tile, that city does not need a granary with 3F plus for growth.
Duckweed suggested whipping RP. I guess it's to get some OF going, why not do that with forest chop?
Those forest tiles are good to work during GAs.
Do we forget about demanding something from Nappy?
While you see that the peace treaty can be cancelled, try to demand something from him.
Move Spy? I still feel a bit uneasy about this
Not a big deal to move spy for now, we could connect the iron again in 2 turns.
War logistics
Follow Duckweed's guidelines
-------------------------
City builds
Case Depart: Cuir
Rice Pudding: Cuir
Golden Sands: finish Cuir then 2pop whip Settler
Sheepish: Spears
Constantinople: Cuir after Market, will give cott tile 2N to SH so as to work the cott 1SW (12 turns to village, so +2C with PP bonus)
Cornish Cow: Market, 2-pop Cuir next turn (put OF in ??) Market.
Thessalonica: whip now. OF in Cuir
Let it grow a bit and whip 1 turn before Taj GA to gain the bonus.
Sea Horse: Market, switch cott 1S to village 1S2E from Const
DH/BS: grow on Markets
Aksum: Taj
Spoiler :
Gondar: Forge, 3 pop whip in 3 turns
Lali: Cuir? (Doshin suggested spy) OK with a spy as long as it's fast enough to reach HC's city.
Adulis: see above question, I'd build a Spy or Spear while growing on Farm until it can grab back Horse tile from Aksum
Wealth as I suggested. chop the forest to speedup the settler
Addis Ababa: OF in Cuir, then Forge while growing on farms
Yeha: switch to Spy/Spear until Size 2 then whip Gran
Wealth if you want to switch, otherwise keeps on granary
Mycenae: chop x2 into Granary
If we decided to get rid of Toku as soon as we complete the war with KK, then granary makes sense, otherwise, spear.
Fish & Ships: Gran
Remember to let Constantinople take the Corn back and focus on growing.
If you can't continue on, I hope you can play a bit more today. It's better not to leave too much work on the last player, although kossin got some experience of rushing at the last moment in last game.
The plan looks good, and I agree with Duckweed's feedback.
I suggested Lalibela as a candidate to produce a Spy, because it has a Forge/CH/Granary and decent production. You may find a better candidate, or decide against it completely. It is a long journey for a 2-movement unit and I didn't have the game open when I made the suggestion.
Avoid whipping generally, and grow cities as much as you can before the GA. But do so in the knowledge that, because we will be out of Police State and Slavery in 4 turns, some last minute whips (e.g. Thessalonica) or whips of important builds (e.g. Settlers) will be necessary. Sorry this point is desperately vague.
Perhaps completing the Taj could be the stopping point? The build here is quite delicate, and it will help the next player to transition and plan when they can see the boosted yield of GA tiles.
Two things are important for me:
The second point involves guesswork, but, if this is the hidden objective, the GM could set up the corporation in Aksum, which will have a lot of pop, is fairly central, and has the FP reducing maintenance.
More generally, after pomthom's set we should plan out our attempts to spawn Great Scientists in Constantinople and Case Départ, before we reach Chemistry and Scientific Method.
Gateway city = Whale city?
Many of those Forests will go to BS/GS/CC.
We only need the island city in time for Corporation. Even then, the benefits are debatable, if hammers are the bottleneck.
I suggested Lalibela as a candidate to produce a Spy, because it has a Forge/CH/Granary and decent production. You may find a better candidate, or decide against it completely. It is a long journey for a 2-movement unit and I didn't have the game open when I made the suggestion.
Avoid whipping generally, and grow cities as much as you can before the GA. But do so in the knowledge that, because we will be out of Police State and Slavery in 4 turns, some last minute whips (e.g. Thessalonica) or whips of important builds (e.g. Settlers) will be necessary. Sorry this point is desperately vague.
Perhaps completing the Taj could be the stopping point?
The build here is quite delicate, and it will help the next player to transition and plan when they can see the boosted yield of GA tiles.Why do you think DH is better to produce the first GM? More Grassland tiles?
Two things are important for me:
- The GM needs to pop ASAP. It needs to reach an AI capital, and this will take ~10 turns.
- We should anticipate a "spread your corporation to X cities" hidden objective.
The second point involves guesswork, but, if this is the hidden objective, the GM could set up the corporation in Aksum, which will have a lot of pop, is fairly central, and has the FP reducing maintenance.
More generally, after pomthom's set we should plan out our attempts to spawn Great Scientists in Constantinople and Case Départ, before we reach Chemistry and Scientific Method.
Barb city = Hung-Nsia?
Gateway city = Whale city?
Many of those Forests will go to BS/GS/CC.
Yes. The island city will only add +1C to ~3 marginal cities with the GLH.
We only need the island city in time for Corporation. Even then, the benefits are debatable, if hammers are the bottleneck.
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
Yes don't worry I'll play later today, completing the Taj is a good breaking point (T136)
15 turns is not that much but I can play only so much quicker
15 turns is not that much but I can play only so much quicker
Another reason why I think about razing HN is because it's a small city with 4F+ only, Even a granary investment takes long time to be paid back. I assume that our end-game time would be T160~170 and the tech tree can be completed ~T160~165 depending on how well of the war progress.
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
Ready to play in ~30 minutes. Available?
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
What's the vote on the slider?
I vote c because it has the highest beaker yield and more flexibility (as Duckweed mentioned). However it might or might not lead to a 1 turn delay to Democracy (although I doubt it)
a. 100% now
b. Partial slider now
c. 0% until Taj GA (T136)
b. Partial slider now
c. 0% until Taj GA (T136)
I vote c because it has the highest beaker yield and more flexibility (as Duckweed mentioned). However it might or might not lead to a 1 turn delay to Democracy (although I doubt it)
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
Do I leave 1 Cuir in conquered "border" cities such as Murcia or Salamanca?
Spoiler :
Constantinople is completing Market this turn, so 100% slider this turn should be fine. Whether to lower down next turn, I'm fine either way as long as we can research Demo without delay.
No need to leave Cui in Murcia and Sala. Get them to Barcelona to heal.
I need to take care of my boy for a while, no need to wait for my feed back in about 1 hour.
Just to emphasize, raze HN and small cities(size<4, without new happy resource, granary).
No need to leave Cui in Murcia and Sala. Get them to Barcelona to heal.
I need to take care of my boy for a while, no need to wait for my feed back in about 1 hour.
Just to emphasize, raze HN and small cities(size<4, without new happy resource, granary).
The Golden Age does not buff or boost research any more than it does GPT. The base commerce increases, which in turn is modified by various buildings.
If you work 10 tiles worth 4 commerce each, for 5 turns in a city with a Library.
Science first:
(40C * 1.25) * 5 = 250B
GA begins, now 10 tiles worth 5 commerce each. Now gold:
(50C * 1) * 4 = 200G
----
If you work 10 tiles worth 4 commerce each, for 5 turns.
Gold first:
(40C * 1) * 5 = 200G
GA begins, now science:
(50C * 1.25) * 4 = 250B
----
The GA timing is therefore irrelevant. What matters are city improvements (e.g. if you have just whipped multiple Libraries, turn off the slider) flexibility, and trading opportunities.
If you work 10 tiles worth 4 commerce each, for 5 turns in a city with a Library.
Science first:
(40C * 1.25) * 5 = 250B
GA begins, now 10 tiles worth 5 commerce each. Now gold:
(50C * 1) * 4 = 200G
----
If you work 10 tiles worth 4 commerce each, for 5 turns.
Gold first:
(40C * 1) * 5 = 200G
GA begins, now science:
(50C * 1.25) * 4 = 250B
----
The GA timing is therefore irrelevant. What matters are city improvements (e.g. if you have just whipped multiple Libraries, turn off the slider) flexibility, and trading opportunities.
