SGOTM 22 - Lurker thread

[Deckhand]

Agreed. Skill in playing should be differentiator, not correctly guessing map design.

Sometimes more testing isn't the answer. It can result in changes with unintentional consequences. In this game changes were made to strengthen AIs and to ensure players could get GW. In hindsight, the AIs were made too strong. Maybe no raging barbarians would have been better than facilitating GW. In first BSP map, I play tested and struggled enough that some AIs were nerfed; which resulted in a very easy game.
I think there is real value in consultation and another pair of eyes looking at things. Maybe someone would be willing to do this even if they don't have time to playtest. (Assuming BSPollux was agreeable).

 

[BLubmuz]

At the time i pointed out the weaknesses of this scenario. Obviously i could point only what i knew when the game was presented, being absent 4 months from here.
This game was on the edge where a bad or good RNG round can make the difference between victory and defeat, thus it was unbalanced, like the very old Viking one, not sure when it was, even before BtS, probably.

As i'm trying to point from years, this competition does NOT need complicated scenarios: a normal game, a given VC and some objectives to be completed to access the laurels, nothing more.

 

[WastinTime]

As i'm trying to point from years, this competition does NOT need complicated scenarios: a normal game, a given VC and some objectives to be completed to access the laurels, nothing more.

I disagree. I play SG and GotM mainly because you get a hand crafted scenario. Not just a map I can generate myself.

I liked the most recent game. It was refreshing to have dangerous AI opponents--and surprisingly so. Not just a Deity game where everyone expects it. And there's nothing wrong with losing a game once in a while. At least no one got eliminated too early and couldn't participate.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I disagree. I play SG and GotM mainly because you get a hand crafted scenario. Not just a map I can generate myself.

I agree with this, the different rules etc are what makes it exciting.

I think the game shouldn't be dependent on an early Wonder being obtained or not, Raging Barbs was probably a mistake in this one on balance. A lot of effort was made by the Mapmaker in trying to get the AIs to go for the Oracle this time which resulted in too strong capitals - perhaps easier just to found a Barb City and build it in there!

 

[Pangaea]

(ie, don't build maps from scratch, but build them from a generated map)-

Are maps for these games really crafted from bottom up? That's... a lot of work

 

[BSPollux]

Are maps for these games really crafted from bottom up? That's... a lot of work

They are. I try to make them look just a little realistic. Like having forrest/jungle on one side of a large chain of mountains and dry land on the other ("rain shadow") and such things. I hate it if I play any civ-like game and the map has an insane mix of landscapes in a tiny area.

And then there's the diplomacy part of it. If I want the team to be friends with an AI, they will have diffrent res, so they can trade. If I want them to be enemys they will have contested iron/horse etc right between them

I love preparing maps for any game. Should have played all the HOMM3 Maps I made. These are really a lot of work!

 

[Deckhand]

Are maps for these games really crafted from bottom up? That's... a lot of work

AFAIK, BSPollux is the only one that does this. All of his SGOTM maps are handcrafted.
Very occasional xOTM maps are done this way. kcdswede made a Game of Thrones map years ago and I recently made a Lord of the Rings map. Many xOTM maps are heavily edited, but generally not "wiped" and recreated from scratch. Many have no changes or only minor resource adjustments.

 

[WastinTime]

But it's not just the maps. Sometimes you start with 4 Keshiks, sometimes you start with modern techs (Back to the Future), or Humbaba shows up. All good.

 

[LowtherCastle]

They are.

Respect.

Frankly, I don't think there's any need to panic. If BSP does it again, then we'll know he's actually evil and we'll banish him to the HOF.

 

[Gumbolt]

So the last game was challenging? I think many teams enjoyed the challenge. I don't think the game needed too much tweaking. We did have a very strong UU to help us.

If teams had really thought about it they could of guessed where the iron would be. Maybe we could of used 1 more commerce resource to help early game but we already had Monarch tech pace. Perhaps starting game on prince might of been the balanced ticket?

However the game was designed someone was always going to complain. Too easy, too hard, not enough resources, too many resources. As long as the majority enjoy the game that is what matters.

I actually like the fact that this game was actually loseable. Going into a game knowing you will win is hardly the description of a great SGOTM. Perhaps next game the objective could be to lose by space by best possible date? Knowing you could lose a game always makes you rise to a challenge.

Keep the maps coming BSP.

 

[BSPollux]

The map I'm planning will have a very simple objective (like: easy to understand), very open. That objective will need a specific tech to be possible, so the game will need to go on for a while before you can start working on winning it.

I'm at the point of tweaking the map. Right now the start plays too slow. I'm thinking about diffrent options to get you going a little faster without turbo charging you for the whole game

 

[kcd_swede]

The map I'm planning will have a very simple objective (like: easy to understand), very open. That objective will need a specific tech to be possible, so the game will need to go on for a while before you can start working on winning it.

I'm at the point of tweaking the map. Right now the start plays too slow. I'm thinking about diffrent options to get you going a little faster without turbo charging you for the whole game

Just remember, speeding up the start will probably slow down the number of turns played by teams in the first month of competition. You know how we are.

 

[Pangaea]

They are. I try to make them look just a little realistic. Like having forrest/jungle on one side of a large chain of mountains and dry land on the other ("rain shadow") and such things. I hate it if I play any civ-like game and the map has an insane mix of landscapes in a tiny area.

And then there's the diplomacy part of it. If I want the team to be friends with an AI, they will have diffrent res, so they can trade. If I want them to be enemys they will have contested iron/horse etc right between them

I love preparing maps for any game. Should have played all the HOMM3 Maps I made. These are really a lot of work!

AFAIK, BSPollux is the only one that does this. All of his SGOTM maps are handcrafted.
Very occasional xOTM maps are done this way. kcdswede made a Game of Thrones map years ago and I recently made a Lord of the Rings map. Many xOTM maps are heavily edited, but generally not "wiped" and recreated from scratch. Many have no changes or only minor resource adjustments.

Respect indeed. That takes tremendous effort, and it's only part of the job, as you then need to test the maps for balance.

KUTGW!!

 

[Xcalibrator]

Regretfully, I can't commit the time to playing a full SGOTM, but I would be happy to play test, especially if I don't have to finish the game.

 

[yyeah]

I'm at the point of tweaking the map. Right now the start plays too slow. I'm thinking about diffrent options to get you going a little faster without turbo charging you for the whole game

I think that can be answer for your dilemma.

I dont want to repet myself but if i can suggest something ...
Basicly what i was thinking about " a bit more then avarage land" was not .
Adittional can snowball game too much.
But with restrictions in last SGoTM aditional here and there could set teams just step ahead. Like Rome has only one 6 tile i dont even count Bananas, horse site had one 4 tile Fish city only Fish etc etc.
Its fine in standard game but with this restricions wasnt enough, like adding wet Corn and maybe river side plains cows ( additional prduction + a little bit of something) in Capitol + Calms in Horse site maybe 1 more Corn somewhere near us would set teams step ahead.

What i want to say is just a detail like additional resource witch help team meet restrictions can be enough.
Maybe a lot more food its not a just detail but it allso provides like micro game, micromanagment/slavery micro can change game/date a lot.

 

[BSPollux]

@yyeah:
Thanks for your tips, but that wasn't the answer. After analysing the problem I realized that it couldn't be fixed in a way that keeps the scenario as open as I wanted it to be. I can explain afterwards if you're interested (even though both of us will have forgotten about it by then).

The best solution was to drop the problematic element of the scenario and replace it with something else. I made a new map that follows the same idea and I actually like it better now.

@Xcalibrator: Could you PM Alanh? He is searching for a tester right now and I don't know if he allready found one. Thanks for the offer

 

[LowtherCastle]

The best solution was to drop the problematic element of the scenario and ... I made a new map.

Easy as pie.

 

[Gumbolt]

Just go with your gut BSP. I don't think we all need to know how the map was designed.

Just start us all with 2 settlers and the ai with 3 and have some fun.

 

[Deckhand]

Just start us all with 2 settlers and the ai with 3 and have some fun.

Great idea. I think I will do that with some xOTM.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Great idea. I think I will do that with some xOTM.

How about 100 each! I think it would be interesting to create a scenario in which we start with way too many units of whatever breeds, so we're forced to make maintenance decisions right from the get-go. That would surely cause a lot of game variation.