[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Home Slices

[MirrorGuard]

I forgot when SB and Peter have open board to each other. That +1 attitude from open border would cancel out our efforts.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I forgot when SB and Peter have open board to each other. That +1 attitude from open border would cancel out our efforts.

I have it as T139 so we’re good to go.

Moscow is 1t from completing the Colossus! (If that’s what he’s building.) Go, Peter, go!

And some interesting news, good and bad.
T137 Peter became Pleased with SB
T139 Peter and SB opened borders.

Bad
1. We’ll get a negmod with Peter for DoWing SB.
2. SB will tech Feud faster.

Good
3. Peter will tech Engineering faster.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Prepare to have your mind blown.
tl;dr We have to move SB up one notch on the rankings

+1 your small civ is no threat

This is based on Leader, Ranks, and # players.

So, when RankDiffAttitude * rankDiff / (allPlayers +1)
is >= 1, you get +1 attitude
allPlayers is all players, even dead or unmet.

In your example, K. Khan has a iBetterRankDifferenceAttitudeChange of 3

KK doesn't give us +1 because rank diff is ours (3) - his (1) = 2

3 * 2 / (7 + 1) < 1

Adding Egypt, our rank is 4, so rankDiff is 3.

3 * 3 / 8 > 1, so now we get the +1.

Ethiopia got the +1 with or without Egypt.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter is a little tougher

iBetterRankDifferenceAttitudeChange of 2

SB (rank 6) - Peter (rank2) = 4

2 * 4 / 8 = 1, so SB gets +1 diplo

Ergo, all we have to do is get SB above one player on the score graph. Rank diff would be 3.

Arabia 754
Holy Rome is 744
SB is 674
So a couple tech gifts should do it after Nationalism
Music and currency might be enough, but I think we should consider MC again, cus I don't really want to give Constitution (something Peter doesn't have), nor are we giving Paper.
Or, we could let him get Feudal, but no one likes that idea I'll bet.
Or population can change. SB can grow, Sal or Holy Rome could whip (or grow)

This is still blowing my mind a bit.
Sitting Bull only knows us and Peter, so from his point of view the rank difference should only be 2.

Yet Buffy clearly shows Peter is giving +1 diplo "your small civ is no threat to us" to Sitting Bull.
The rank difference of 4 is very real.

Spoiler :

Did us meeting the new world AI cause Sitting Bull to get +1 diplo (Pleased) from Peter?
It must have happened when we met White (Germany).

Perhaps the rank difference is all calculated based on how many AI the human player has met.

**Edit**
Ya, here is an old screenshot from T135.
Peter is clearly Cautious with Sitting Bull before we met the 3 new AI.

Spoiler :

Oh wait, the shared religion ticked up +1 too.
Grr.

@LowtherCastle, do you have any info between T136 to T141 on Peter's attitude towards Sitting Bull?
We met Germany on T142.

 

[Kaitzilla]

We can know exactly how many points SB will get from those techs.

Ok, according to the Test Game here is what the various techs are worth:

Ancient Era Techs (+6 points each)
FISHING
HUNTING
MYSTICISM
MINING
PRIESTHOOD
THE WHEEL
AGRICULTURE
ARCHERY
MEDITATION
POTTERY
MASONRY
POLYTHEISM
SAILING
ANIMAL HUSBANDRY
MONOTHEISM
WRITING
BRONZE WORKING

Classical Era Techs (+12 points each)
IRON WORKING
LITERATURE
HORSEBACK RIDING
MATHEMATICS
MONARCHY
DRAMA
AESTHETICS
ALPHABET
CONSTRUCTION
CODE OF LAWS
CALENDAR
COMPASS
CURRENCY
METAL CASTING

Medieval Era Techs (+18 points each)
THEOLOGY
MUSIC
PAPER
OPTICS
FEUDALISM
BANKING
MACHINERY
CIVIL SERVICE
PHILOSOPHY
GUILDS
ENGINEERING
DIVINE RIGHT

Renaissance Era Techs (+24 points each)
GUNPOWDER
LIBERALISM
ECONOMICS
CORPORATION
PRINTING PRESS
REPLACEABLE PARTS
NATIONALISM
EDUCATION
CHEMISTRY
MILITARY SCIENCE
MILITARY TRADITION
CONSTITUTION
ASTRONOMY
RIFLING
DEMOCRACY

Industrial Era Techs (+30 points each)
FASCISM
SCIENTIFIC METHOD
COMMUNISM
STEEL
STEAM POWER
BIOLOGY
COMBUSTION
PHYSICS
ARTILLERY
MEDICINE
ELECTRICITY
RAILROAD
ASSEMBLY LINE
FISSION
INDUSTRIALISM

Here are the current techs we can trade to Sitting Bull on T145.

Spoiler :

Thanks to WastinTime's unique analysis, we just have to shrink the rank distance between Peter and Sitting Bull from 4 down to 3 on the scoreboard to get rid of that pesky +1 diplo.

Spoiler :

Hopefully we don't meet France on T146 increasing the Sitting Bull rank difference to 5
I'll make sure to get the Sitting Bull DOW done safely before moving our Great Scientist scout into Holy Roman Empire.

Anyway, we have a hefty 70 point gap to close between Sitting Bull and Holy Roman Empire.
Nationalism (24) + Music (18) + Currency (12) + Metal Casting (12) = 66 points.

When we trade Nationalism to Sitting Bull T145, we could trade Currency for Nationhood +30 + map.
Then trade Nationalism to Peter for 30 + map.

Next turn on T146, hopefully Holy Roman Empire whips for their war and then we can trade Sitting Bull Music + Metal Casting and remove +1 diplo from Peter.

Paper is 18 points.
We trade that instead of Metal Casting and that is +72 points.
We'd have to trade Peter Paper then too.


Jeez, a lot of work to save 1 diplo with Peter, but he is our free tech factory.

 

[WastinTime]

I'd rather do Nationalism like planned and then do others as needed next turn because population can change.
Maybe do MC so we have the option to do Machinery next turn?
My question would be (and need testing) can we change the rank T146 and instantly change Peter's attitude? or does it take 1t like worst enemy to change. I'm guessing it's instant.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I'd rather do Nationalism like planned and then do others as needed next turn because population can change.
Maybe do MC so we have the option to do Machinery next turn?
My question would be (and need testing) can we change the rank T146 and instantly change Peter's attitude? or does it take 1t like worst enemy to change. I'm guessing it's instant.

Test Game indicates it is instant.

We need some info from the T141 Real Game, the turn before we met Germany.
Is Peter Cautious with Sitting Bull with just +3 shared religion and +1 Peace?

Ok, Metal Casting for Nationhood + gold + map then.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I’ll provided any needed data tomorrow later on. I have all the saves.

 

[LowtherCastle]

The attitude values related to score ranks are independent of whether AIs have met. For certain. Klarius’ AI attitude spreadsheet includes those ranks and functions that way from Turn 0.

 

[WastinTime]

Time to get ready for whipping. Maybe wait a turn or two in some cities til we have more cash.
OrgRel bonus, check.
Probably forges first for +3 happy (soon) oh, and the hammer bonus . minimal overflow on those, so 8+hammers. That's a tall order for some cities. Canal, Silver...they can start forges now, they're not doing enough wealth to matter.
3 pop whip

With sushi coming: Courthouses (50% bonus)
29/120 for max OF
3 pop whip

One advantage of a slightly delayed sushi is that we get forges before execs and we won't have to 4pop whip them.
So +25% bonus on execs.
Can't worry about prepping these more than 1 turn, so it will be a 3 pop whip with some OF.

I was thinking we use OF to build maybe a treb? or temples would be good with Sankore. Save a whip on these 'small' things.
Later OF can go into harbor?

Build/whip galleons? or just upgrade our galleys?

 

[Kaitzilla]

The attitude values related to score ranks are independent of whether AIs have met. For certain. Klarius’ AI attitude spreadsheet includes those ranks and functions that way from Turn 0.

What if France has a high score?

Does that mean we have to give SB enough tech for him to move up 2 ranks?

 

[Kaitzilla]

Time to get ready for whipping. Maybe wait a turn or two in some cities til we have more cash.
OrgRel bonus, check.
Probably forges first for +3 happy (soon) oh, and the hammer bonus . minimal overflow on those, so 8+hammers. That's a tall order for some cities. Canal, Silver...they can start forges now, they're not doing enough wealth to matter.
3 pop whip

With sushi coming: Courthouses (50% bonus)
29/120 for max OF
3 pop whip

One advantage of a slightly delayed sushi is that we get forges before execs and we won't have to 4pop whip them.
So +25% bonus on execs.
Can't worry about prepping these more than 1 turn, so it will be a 3 pop whip with some OF.

I was thinking we use OF to build maybe a treb? or temples would be good with Sankore. Save a whip on these 'small' things.
Later OF can go into harbor?

Build/whip galleons? or just upgrade our galleys?

I think it will mainly be Forges, Courthouses (in the 5 cities without them right before Sushi spread if possible), Sushi, that 1 Dun, and Sushi Exec setups.

Cities with high food can draft hard and then whip forges to get rid of anger.
Then they grow back even without sushi.

The low food cities will need more thought.
They don't really grow back lost pop without Sushi.
Maybe Biology farms will help.

All of our big overflows should probably go into Hermitage.
There is no benefit to the city completing it directly, but the fail gold will be far better than Wealth, especially with Org. Religion.

The final 3 Workboats to pump up Sushi to the max?
Not sure when to build them.


Only Whale City is free from whip anger concerns.
It will get the Globe Theatre (300) one day and can draft a Musket every turn if we decide to switch back to Nationalism in the future after getting National Park.
With Org. Religion and Forge, a partially complete Globe can be whipped directly with 1 pop giving 30.

Actually, Whale City will have so much , it can draft every turn and still gain food
Or maybe just whip a whole lot of Cuirassiers with a Stable.

I think we can get Preserves started 1t sooner and Biology 1t sooner, NatPark 1t sooner, but sushi : no change.
It means we lose monasteries 1t sooner which hopefully isn't enough to actually cause a 1t delay in sushi (we can fix that problem if it arises)
The secret to doing 1t faster is to get Chemistry in 1t which needs ~1000:
145 PPress (don't complete it)
146 Corporation (delays extra trade rts 1 turn)
147 PPress (with like 800 overflow)
148 (Eng) bulb Chem, research Chem.
149 2bulb SM, finish it
150 3bulb Bio, finish it (trade for Calendar) (workers start preserves)
151-153 Liberalism (yeah, looks like 3 turns)
154 (Med, sushi) start Astronomy

Note: if Peter's Eng(1) on T147 somehow is still Eng(1) on T148, we'd just have to dump our OF into Liberalism, and Chem would take 2 turns. Sushi is unaffected, but Bio slips 1t.

We can plan out the city and worker micro around this timetable, thanks

 

[Kaitzilla]

Actually, our capital Science City will also be anger free.
Perhaps not to the extent of Whale City, but it will have a huge cap!
7 forest preserves gives +7 , and the National Park will remove the unhealthiness completely.

Due to Oxford, even 1 free scientist specialist trumps the Sushi Courthouse giving us +14 per turn.
National Park >>> priority than anything else in capital starting T151.
Might not want to draft there at all if is the game bottleneck.

It will be nice to get 5 Rice farm on T151.

Then again, forest preserve takes 8 Worker-Turns normally and 10 Worker-Turns for tundra forests. (5 of 7 are tundra )
Might not need to create an overflow waterfall to try and get it done immediately.

Spoiler :

 

[Kaitzilla]

Bah, the Dun stone trick is impossible to perform while at war with Sitting Bull.

 

[WastinTime]

maybe try to get a worker or two from SB for preserves. That could take 15.turns tho.

 

[Kaitzilla]

maybe try to get a worker or two from SB for preserves. That could take 15.turns tho.

I'm thinking of using the Peter galley to bring down our 6th worker.

 

[LowtherCastle]

@LowtherCastle, do you have any info between T136 to T141 on Peter's attitude towards Sitting Bull?
We met Germany on T142.

T135


T136


T137



T138



T139



T140

 

[LowtherCastle]

T141



T142



T143



T144

 

[LowtherCastle]

Peter was Pleased with SB before he got +1 puny empire.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Peter was Pleased with SB before he got +1 puny empire.

Whoa, that is really important info!

We need to cancel the puny plan with SB I think.

 

[LowtherCastle]

What if France has a high score?

Does that mean we have to give SB enough tech for him to move up 2 ranks?

If France is between the two, yes.

I don’t get Peter’s puny +1.
1. It’s clear that Peter and SB’s rank difference was at least 4 on T141-T142, so he should have had +1 on T141 also.

2. The puny attitude value is supposed to be hidden, so evidently this latest version added exposing that.

Thought: Is the mod in error??? Does it erroneously only show the plusmod when there are enough score ranks visible?

In other words, will WT’s plan still work?

On the other hand, if France is ranked between, one rank change definitely won’t work.