[BTS] SGOTM 26 - The Indecisive

[shulec]

Looks good guys. I agree with someone's point above that the ocean south of the 6R site needs to be explored for another seafood tile.

I also think we should delay settling Canal City, it is not a very strong settling site other than the seafood. Sitting Bull might give us the canal we need. And its also a canal heading toward the north pole. I want some green... I like the idea of getting three settlers off our continent.

 

[shulec]

Can we rename cities 2 and 3 to something like Fur City and Southeast City or whatever?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Good to see you, shulec. Thought maybe you were "no longer" SGOTM.

Looks good guys. I agree with someone's point above that the ocean south of the 6R site needs to be explored for another seafood tile. That will be done. And no reason not to rename cities.

I also think we should delay settling Canal City, it is not a very strong settling site other than the seafood. With Slavery, it will be pretty strong, and it does give access to the east. Sitting Bull might give us the canal we need. Might. And its also a canal heading toward the north pole. Do you have reason to think we won't be able to sail East? I want some green... I like the idea of getting three settlers off our continent.

That's assuming three good and relatively near sites, and it would significantly delay growth and development. Also, I'm wondering if there is any green on this map. Can you live with two settlers held back?

 

[Folket]

I made two test games where I trade growth of our fourth and fifth city for more rapid research. I personally think it turns out better.

 

[Folket]

I do not know what your micro of Vienne was but I feel it is underdeveloped in your save. I like what you did with Tolosa, but maybe that wb should explore south instead.

Shulec, canel city will be quite nice with Moai statues, but I agree that we can delay it and instead send the third wb from Tolosa south.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"I made two test games where I trade growth of our fourth and fifth city for more rapid research. I personally think it turns out better. It’s certainly a trade off." Your saves are ahead in research, meaningfully but not dramatically. My save is indeed ahead in growth, though mostly imminent growth, especially Canal City (whose growth you knowingly sacrificed). I’m thinking that in about 6 turns the research gap will close, as four seafoods are netted and utilized, but the growth advantage will remain. Suggest we each play another 6 turns of test and then compare again.

"I do not know what your micro of Vienne was but I feel it is underdeveloped in your save." It is relatively undeveloped compared to yours. I emphasized production there to get two workboats and a worker built for 6R. It will be fine going forward, though. How early did you camp the deer and use it? I like what you did with Tolosa, but maybe that wb should explore south instead. There is no more land visible to the south in the game save, except the marble island, which I did circle. If land becomes visible, then that would be a decision to be made. Appreciate the need for exploration and finding both other civs and possible other city sites with new resources, but not clear that is an immediate priority.

"Shulec, canel city will be quite nice with Moai statues, but I agree that we can delay it and instead send the third wb from Tolosa south." Again, there is no land visible to the south except AI land, and we don’t have Open Borders. Also, any speculative exploration with an existing wkbt would only be more pressing than need for wkbt to net seafood if we go with your test approach, where a monument and expansion in Canal City is many turns away.

BTW, what did you do differently in your two tests?

 

[Folket]

It was mostly about how fast I settled 6R.

 

[shulec]

Good to see you, shulec. Thought maybe you were "no longer" SGOTM.

That's assuming three good and relatively near sites, and it would significantly delay growth and development. Also, I'm wondering if there is any green on this map. Can you live with two settlers held back?

I think you may be right about the green. Looking at the distribution of jungle, that is likely the equator. We have visualized about 25-30% of the land. I counted about 225/773 land tiles visible. Holding back two settlers is certainly sensible.

There probably isn't a better site than the canal site. However, that is not a great site... It will have to build the following: Dun, monastary, lighthouse, monument, Temple, Cathedral, Maoi, AP. Without long Golden Age periods, those are a lot of hammers, especially for the AP.

 

[Folket]

Worth noting is that I have 200 hammers in stone hedge in test2 save file. In general I prefer test3.

You say 8 west of 6R but in your test game the settler has moved 8 east. If we plant a sixth city I think west of 6R is better. We can get clam+crab+2silver+fur.

Shulec, what test game do you prefer?

 

[shulec]

I’ll try to get a look tonight.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Worth noting is that I have 200 hammers in stone hedge in test2 save file. In general I prefer test3. Understood. I will look at that one again. Are you interested in playing six more turns of your test3?

You say 8 west of 6R but in your test game the settler has moved 8 east. Careless error. If we plant a sixth city I think west of 6R is better. We can get clam+crab+2silver+fur. Yes, I agree. I've posted words to that effect a couple of times. I just didn't worry about it for the purpose of testing.

Shulec, what test game do you prefer?

 

[Cactus Pete]

I’ll try to get a look tonight.

Folket recommends his test3. I recommend a test save that I will post tonight playing six more turns.

Edit: See below.

 

[shulec]

Both tests look great. I probably missed the discussion that prioritized pottery over BW, but I would love to see us whipping before getting The Wheel and Pottery. That being said, I prefer to faster research of Folket's save over the growth of CPs save.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Concur that both approaches are good.

Folket, can you play out your test (soon, I hope)? It would seem foolish for me to try to learn to replicate it.

We don't really need the whip until we have growth.

 

[Folket]

I will play six more turns in my test games tomorrow morning.

 

[shulec]

We don't really need the whip until we have growth.

Don’t really need it... vs leverage it!

Early one pop whips prior to granaries are great, especially when we are hammer lite. The happiness goes away very quickly, and it is better working weak tiles early on. Knowledge of bronze sooner than later impacts city sights. It will speed our expansion whipping galleys and workers.

 

[Folket]

I played 6 more turns.

 

[Folket]

Don’t really need it... vs leverage it!

Early one pop whips prior to granaries are great, especially when we are hammer lite. The happiness goes away very quickly, and it is better working weak tiles early on. Knowledge of bronze sooner than later impacts city sights. It will speed our expansion whipping galleys and workers.

Are we really hammer lite? It feel like we are missing more food then anything else. Canal city is the only spot where I see a great use of slavery. There might be an argument that canal city should wait until 6 turns before bronze working finishes as getting it to speed is going to be fast and cheap after slavery. Maybe you can show us a test game where you leverage slavery.

I agree that knowing where there is bronze is good but it does not feel crucial in this game as we do not need to war.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Test3 does look better. Your approach has us ahead in Research, and the Stonehenge gold is meaningfully greater. My approach has 6R and Canal City significantly advanced, with research per turn now about the same. I'd prefer to have the developed cities to the research, but it's a pretty even trade-off. Two factors favor your approach:

1. If there is land to the south of marble island, then you have a wkbt free to explore it immediately. It's needed to net seafood to make my approach work
2. There is a good city site to the west, and your approach will let us settle that sooner, provided we wait on settling Canal City. And waiting to settle Canal City until we have Slavery (as you argue) makes sense. Settling it late, as you do in your test, seems worse than not settling until we have Slavery (regardless of whether we settle another western city).

How soon do you think you can get another western city settled (assuming a delay in Canal City) and still maintain research to your satisfaction?

I agree that knowing where there is bronze is good but it does not feel crucial in this game as we do not need to war.

Don't we need to get a level 10 unit for one of the desirable/necessary wonders? Concur that BW is desirable early, but still like the research order being tested.

 

[Folket]

lvl 10? What wonder is that? If so I think we can get it fast by throwing gunpowder units at enemies and getting a couple of great generals. Should be easy enough.