SGOTM 9 - Smurkz

ControlFreak said:
(In case this isn't common knowledge, if a city has enough sheilds for a settler at size 2 but is making EXACTLY 0fpt, the govenor will ask you if you want to disband. Any other food per turn, it will wait until it reaches size three to make the settler. So to get rid of these cities, we can cash rush and adjust the citizens to 0fpt. Same goes for workers at size 1.)
News to me; I've never been in the position where I wanted to disband a city. And if you answer the question 'Yes' (i.e., disband this city), then you are rewarded with a settler or worker, depending on the size of the city, correct?

When we do this to a captured city, do we take a rep hit, as if we had razed the city?

Disbanding cities is a new thing for me, but looks to be extremely interesting and helpful. :evil:
 
CommandoBob said:
And if you answer the question 'Yes' (i.e., disband this city), then you are rewarded with a settler or worker, depending on the size of the city, correct?

Yes, if the city is size 1 you get a worker. If it is size 2 you get a settler. Note that if the city is size 2 and it's foreign citizens when you settler elsewhere you'll still have a foreign citizen.

Not for sure if it grants a rep hit. I don't believe so as I've used this before in SG's and never seen a rep hit from it.
 
CommandoBob said:
And if you answer the question 'Yes' (i.e., disband this city), then you are rewarded with a settler or worker, depending on the size of the city, correct?
You get what ever you were building.:) If you were size 2 and you were building a worker, you wouldn't get asked to raze the city because there'd be one citizen left after taking the pop point for the worker. If you were size 1 and building a settler, you wouldn't get asked because the are enough pop points, even if you raze the town. The city would just sit there forever waiting to have enough pop points to spit out the settler. The AI has managed cities like this when they really need more towns, but their happiness is so bad (usually from whipping) that they need an entertainer at size 1.:crazyeye: It's no wonder we're expected to beat them.:lol:

CommandoBob said:
When we do this to a captured city, do we take a rep hit, as if we had razed the city?
I've never really checked but I do think this counts as razing another civs city based on what I've read. If a city has more foreign citizens than native when it's disbanded for whatever reason, the other civs will like you less. But it doesn't affect per turn trades if that was what Methos was referring to.

In this game, nobody is going to like us by the end, but we don't care about that, do we.:devil: Thank goodness the UN is disabled.:mischief:

EDIT: I take that back, I'm not sure we've bent our likeability by so much that it's unrecoverable. I think once everyone is OCC and we start trading resources and ROPs with them, they may get back to being annoyed with us.;)
 
So the forums are back up I see. What an annoying day. First my electricity is knocked out by a storm. Then the electricity comes back and the forums are down. Anyway, here goes.

Edit: Oh and just to make sure I don't scare anyone, I'm not playing immediately. I'm expecting comments first.


Long Term
Get India to build a spaceship so we can hijack it.
Set up India with a productive core
Cripple all other civs
Get City for the Sages set up as science town
Acquire as many luxuries as possible
Build up to 4 turn research capability

Mid Term
Trim Carthage and Ottomans down to OCC status.
Develop new core
Find other Continents
Get set up for wonder builds

Next 10 Turns first draft
Take Carthage and try to get currency in peace deal
Take Edrine from the Ottomans and Istanbul if possible (I really want the Lighthouse)
Karakorum, L. Minor, and Kazan get abandoned after building a worker or settler each.
Build some horses in the south lands to defend against Indian landings.
MM towns to focus on food during anarchy, as outlined by CF.
Focus worker tasks on City of Sages and Missi to prep for wonder builds.
Become a Republic
Enter Middle Ages
Disband regular warriors after Republic?
Explore with galleys.
0% research until MA and try to get free tech from Ottomans.
 
ControlFreak said:
The SEA is easily reachable but unless you can SEE coast attached, this is a suicide mission. Refer to previous comments about no suicides until we control the lighthouse.

Not exactly. With differential naval movement I can move out 2 tiles and still move back to the coast. Of course if I see coast out there after moving 2 tiles...

There has been some talk about iron disconnection but nothing diffinitive.

If we aren't going to disband the 2 warriors can I upgrade them? They may be useful for fending off Indian invaders as well as flip suppression this way.
 
Gee, can I finally post this now?? :p

Day before yesterday was the climax for my course with the exam being held, so yesterday I was completely wasted. I woke up with a headache, sore and tense all over, and things didn't really improve :sad:. But the good thing is, the course is (more or less) over, which means more time for civving! :)

I've tried to reconstruct what I wrote that was eaten, but some of it has been said already. :)

Military

Carthage
The stack moving on Carthage should be enough to capture. Since Hannibal has been using his Numids in offense, I doubt there will be that many left as guards in Carthage, I would guess 3. With the troops we have, assuming no counters, that's well over 95% chance of capture. If we get a counter, or if there are 4 Numids, the odds drop to about 91%.

Move the sword on the cat stack one step along the road towards Carthage on turn 0, hills is better bonus to defense than fortification, and there's no way Hannibal could send a unit around that position to strike at the cats.

When you attack, a general rule of thumb when using mixed forces:
If the question is whether to succeed in capturing or not, always use the strong but slow units you have first, since they has the greatest chance of taking out the strongest defenders right away.
If you are certain to win, and need the forces for further action, start with the fast attackers since they can retreat, which means average losses will be less.

Carthage clearly falls under the first category, so use the swords first.

Edrine
Some units could reach Edrine a turn faster, but they wouldn't be enough to capture with fair odds. Wait until all the units get there, then attack. Bring in the sword that has been healing in Karakorum, and you should have enough units fully healed afterwards to press on to Istanbul.


Infrastructure
I set lots of towns to building libraries, we want the expanding borders fast not to mention the effect of the libraries themselves. I think we should rush the lib in City for the Sages as fast as we can, when the border expands there we'll get access to the oysters which are not only super-commerce tiles, but also food bonuses for faster growth. And it also means that we can start the Copernicus prebuild faster (after market).

Some towns that have very high growth potential (Zentral, Cabana, Missi?) might be better off with a market first, with the silks from Carthage that means we can get up to size 11 with lux rate 0%, instead of 7 without it. Would anyone care to do some calculations on this? I could do it, if only I get the time before WD plays.

In general, build sequence in all these towns should be something like library - market - (harbor where needed) - courthouse (except in Zentral) - cathedral/uni.

I've followed CF's good example and named some settlers, but of course you may choose to place them somewhere else. :)
And yes, the three towns disrupting RCP should go away fast.

@CF: Are you sure that's what happens when building a settler at 1 pop? I was under the assumption that even if you have only 1 pop, if you run at 0fpt you are asked if you want to disband. I would have thought I would have noticed if this wasn't the case, I've relocated quite a few towns in my days, but when I think back maybe all of them were pop 2? :confused:

Research and Trades
In 4 turns we can start researching again. And our potential is really massive, at the current count (which will increase) we can do Monotheism at 100% research in 5 turns at -84gpt, or at 0gpt in 9 turns.

We have lots of money. Really lots of money. But still we could only keep up 100% research for about 13 turns before we have no money at all. But what else to do with the money? We could rush libraries, courthouses and markets, but they will never be able to repay themselves. Only if we are already running at 100% research will rushing such buildings make sense. No, I say full speed ahead towards Education (once Otto's are down), with few exceptions (like the library in CftS).

We should be able to get Currency in a peace deal 4 turns from now, and thus be able to start research on Monotheism right away. It is possible, but unlikely, that we could get peace with the Ottos in the same time. But since we're not yet at 4-turn research, the speed of our research will be measured in gp still. So running a few turns at 0% research, just hoarding money, will not slow us down the least, it will only prolong the time for which we can run at a deficit once we start.

My suggestion is thus to get Currency fast, take reasonable time (6-7 turns?) to deal with the Ottomans while running at 100% tax rate, gift up the Ottos, and then start research at 100%.
 
Looks good. EDIT: crossposted with Niklas.

On the war plans: we don't really need peace with Carthage soon. We can use prebuilds for markets for a while, and I would prefer not to research until we know the Ottoman free tech. The only reason to make peace right after taking Carthage would be WW, or a strong counter attack (not likely). The advantages of not making peace right away are that we can raze Sabratha, and get Carthage down in size if needed (starvation, or rush slave workers).
I think the small Ottoman city near Istanbul should be a target as well, because of flip risk. It wouldn't delay peace by much I think.

The warrior upgrades are your call I think. If you feel it's unsafe, then upgrade, and possibly you don't need a lot of horses down south then. Try not to overbuild military, as we'll be paying upkeep soon (but not underbuild either :) ).

Let's try the ocean crossing at Methos' point.

Iron disconnection sounds like a bad idea to me. We hopefully don't need a lot of troops for a while, and we should save our cash for deficit research I think.
 
My suggestion for a war plan against Carthage:
View attachment 107630
I have this idea with setting a trap for Hannibal. We have 4 slaves close by that might be a good lure for him, and if we could pull one Numid out of Carthage it would mean a lot for our chances. :)

Turn by turn:
  • Turn 0: Move the sword from the cats and onto the hills. Hills give 50% defense, fortification only 25%, so he's better protected on the hills. Take the spear from Ari (should have named it Arizmurkz of course...) and move into Carthaginian lands.
    Take the two slaves from former Utica and move to the cats.
    Leave the southern stack where it is for one turn, no point in moving in too fast.
  • Turn 1: Move cats to where the sword is, the sword should fortify and the spear should move in to cover.
    Move the slaves from Utica SE, and the ones near Amzee W.
    Move the whole southern stack W towards Carthage, and bring the wounded horse (by then at 3/4) with you.
  • Turn 2: Let all troops meet up on the forest E of Carthage, leaving the road free to travel. Put all four slaves on the same tile 2SW of Ari, forming a powerful bait for Hannibal.
  • Turn 3: Attack Carthage. Attack order should be cats - swords - horses - archer, with elites attacking before veterans.
 
ok, looks like I'm ready to go. Anything else?
 
Niklas said:
@CF: Are you sure that's what happens when building a settler at 1 pop? I was under the assumption that even if you have only 1 pop, if you run at 0fpt you are asked if you want to disband. I would have thought I would have noticed if this wasn't the case, I've relocated quite a few towns in my days, but when I think back maybe all of them were pop 2? :confused:
Actually I never tried it at size 1 because I just assumed you need 2 pop to make a settler....WRONG! You can set a size one town to 0FPT and when the shields finish for the settler, the governor still gives you the options to Abandon:
CF SG9 Abandon For Settler.jpg
Even though we're only at size 1, the city is razed and we get a settler! Thanks for questioning me Niklas...now I know.

Regarding the attack on Carthage, it sounds sensible, but I don't think you need all four slaves as bait. One might not be enough but I would think 2 has the same draw as four. The others need to go help Sages keep enough improvements ahead of growth.

I agree that rushing all the librarys is not cost effective, but with the high cost of libraries and then unis, it might help to short rush several of them in our higher sheild/commerce towns. That would wait until we get a lot of growth and mines done up north.

I agree with zyxy that peace with carthage isn't urgent until we can also get peace with the Ottomans. In my dream, India learns Polytheism and trades around so that the Ottomans are in the middle ages before our peace deal. Hey, it could happen.:p

EDIT: OMT, don't forget that we're trying to use contacts to give India a leg up. After the other continent is met, we should sell or gift Indian contact to all the new world civs. Hopefully that will let them trade old world contacts <--> new world contacts for techs.
 
CF said:
Even though we're only at size 1, the city is razed and we get a settler! Thanks for questioning me Niklas...now I know.

Thanks for testing it CF! My line of thinking was similar to yours as I thought you got a worker at size one and a settler at size two. Interesting that you get a settler even at size one.

Seems weird to give out India's contact but this whole game is a bit weird.:D
 
I'm on turn 7 I think. Taken Carthage, Sabratha, Edrine, and Istanbul... Great Lighthouse! We are a Republic, Carthage is ready to give us Currency for peace. Founded 2 more towns and 2 more will probably be set down before I finish.

I'm afraid I've fudged the abandon town/ get settler thing. I didn't understand it at first but I do now. So... they have to have enough shields to build the settler which means 5-10 turns unless I cash rush or short rush something. Should I wait and let it happen next turn set, or just abandon now?

Any comment on moving one town west as CF suggested? It would basically be 2 tiles SE of Carthage.
 
WarDance said:
I'm on turn 7 I think. Taken Carthage, Sabratha, Edrine, and Istanbul... Great Lighthose! We are a Republic, Carthage is ready to give us Currency for peace. Founded 2 more towns and 2 more will probably be set down before I finish.

Great progress! So that's just one more Otto town to go and: peace, gift techs, research. Also: explore the world! :king:
Interesting spelling error btw... (we hosed the lighthose? :hmm: ).

I'm afraid I've fudged the abandon town/ get settler thing. I didn't understand it at first but I do now. So... they have to have enough shields to build the settler which means 5-10 turns unless I cash rush or short rush something. Should I wait and let it happen next turn set, or just abandon now?

hard to say if we don't know more. Try to weigh the losses (population and/or cash) against the benefits (less corruption/waste in core towns, more settlers).

Any comment on moving one town west as CF suggested? It would basically be 2 tiles SE of Carthage.

I haven't looked carefully but it seems a good move. We lose a desert tile, but the town gains coastal access, that's good for commerce. Again: please weigh the options, and decide!
 
On a completely different note: I'll be away for the holidays from Dec 21 until Jan 4 (inclusive). It's unlikely I'll have web access or an opportunity to play.
 
I second zyxy's comments about the game. Great job! :goodjob:

My plans have changed and I'll be home for the holidays but I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to play with the relatives here. I post more when my turn rolls around.

EDIT: See how both those thoughts fit in the same post? :p :whipped:
 
zyxy said:
Great progress! So that's just one more Otto town to go and: peace, gift techs, research. Also: explore the world! :king:
Interesting spelling error btw... (we hosed the lighthose? :hmm: ).

Ha! Fixed it
 
ControlFreak said:
EDIT: See how both those thoughts fit in the same post? :p :whipped:

Yeah, but they get much less emphasis that way ;).

Oops, spammed again :mischief:
 
Well, as everyone else will be busy for the holidays I met as well say I'll have plenty of time. My company shuts down from 23Dec until 2 Jan and we are forced to take that time off. [Can't you hear the complaining :mischief: ]. We'll travel some but not much. Christmas Eve and day will be it, I believe.

Great game WarDance!

WarDance said:
I'm afraid I've fudged the abandon town/ get settler thing. I didn't understand it at first but I do now. So... they have to have enough shields to build the settler which means 5-10 turns unless I cash rush or short rush something. Should I wait and let it happen next turn set, or just abandon now?

It's my understanding that you don't need the shields at all. All you need is to have a settler qued and be at +0 fpt and at either size 1 or 2. Since the city isn't growing and can never reach the needed size the city askes whether or not it should be disbanded. Note, this does not happen immediately. You have to wait several turns before it asks.
 
Please read an important addition to the rules HERE
 
From AlanH's remarks I gather everyone is having the exact same troubles with India. Note we have to wait until the Modern Age before we can use the alternative rule.

The nice thing is, this lets us know how India is acting with the other teams.
 
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