SGOTM 9 - Smurkz

[Niklas]

Looking good.

A few notes:

• The ETA on GLib in Entremont is 19 turns like I said . I did the calculations before posting that estimate based on the higher cost and Entremont growing, it just so happens that it's the same number that Entremont currently displays for the Gardens.
• If we can't muster enough troops to take Entremont, it's not a big deal. Just sending 4 units over there to pillage and block the wool tiles will stop Entremont dead in its tracks. If we do send lots of units over intent on capturing, we could still spend some turns blocking food-high tiles, to get Entremont down below size 7. We may not need to though, and capturing fast would be nice.
• The New Continent galley in the west won't need to explore anything, the WM we got from Carthage in the peace deal reveals that there is no safe crossing further south than where CB painted it. So three turns to cross it is if we go the Western Way. It should still turn back though, to be able to ferry troops if the Eastern Way is unsafe.
• Regarding the Eastern Way, Spain has a town on the island we're aiming for so it's entirely possible that they have a better map of the surrounding waters than we do.
• And speaking of Spain, they would be willing to pay us a grand total of 42 gpt for some techs we could trade them! I say nothing to hesitate about, that money is better off in our hands that in theirs, and we can't hope for any serious research help anyway. Let's not tie the deal to the MA vs Celts though, make those two separate deals, so that we still get the gpt if Spain decides to break the MA (which happens).

Before we start we need a better plan of where to rush what. With the extra 42 gpt from Spain, we can justify spending some more on swords and galleys . I don't have the time to plan right now though .

 

[CommandoBob]

Looking good.

A few notes:...

• Regarding the Eastern Way, Spain has a town on the island we're aiming for so it's entirely possible that they have a better map of the surrounding waters than we do.
• And speaking of Spain, they would be willing to pay us a grand total of 42 gpt for some techs we could trade them! I say nothing to hesitate about, that money is better off in our hands that in theirs, and we can't hope for any serious research help anyway. Let's not tie the deal to the MA vs Celts though, make those two separate deals, so that we still get the gpt if Spain decides to break the MA (which happens).

Are you suggesting another PlayAndPeek to get the WM from Spain? I can do that.

 

[Niklas]

I'm suggesting another PlayAndPeek, yes. But I think it should be more than just the WM from Spain, we should do it all in one go. So, what I suggest is:

1. Embassy with America.
2. Sign MA vs Celts with America. They will pay some for it since they are gaining the most from it, perhaps even Monarchy? Take what you can in any case.
3. Sign MA vs Celts with Spain. Here we'll have to pay, you could use cash since you'll get it back in the next step.
4. Sell techs to Spain, enough so that they'll pay all their gpt and gp (including what we gave them for MA) and of course the WM. Monarchy is less important, not to say unimportant. Keep Republic back if possible.

After that you can post back with the new save. Don't worry about reload counts, the powers-that-be won't care since we're clear on what reloads we're doing and why.

 

[CommandoBob]

Embassy with America.

Investigate San Fran, too?

The other points seem clear enough.

Don't worry about reload counts, the powers-that-be won't care since we're clear on what reloads we're doing and why.

I did not know that they kept track of such things.

 

[ControlFreak]

Investigate San Fran, too?

I've been argueing for investigating because I want to know if America is a threat when they cascade from the HG to the Library. Let's say they were one turn behind Spain in the HG. That means we have to get 364s before they make 100s. Sure that we can reduce that by the number of sheilds we make in the next 7 turns but that still leaves us with about 330 sheilds to 100 sheilds. More than three times as many spt as SF. Their hill, irrigated plains and irrigated desert, plus two from the city founded on sheep plain makes 6 or 7 spt. There is no way we can make 21spt to beat them.

Or worse yet, they are ahead of Spain in the HG race. If America finishes HG, Spain will cascade to the Great Library and we're sunk.

I would like to know that before we continue. I'd also like to know if it's going to be close so that we can wake/move and possibly join workers, possibly stop the forestry if necessary to accellerate Grad's spt.

I did not know that they kept track of such things.

Niklas is referring to one of the ways that the GOTM staff looks for cheaters. The theory is that if you have a lot of reloads, with not much play time between them, you might be reloading to change the results of battles, flips, leader generation, etc. I agree that our cause for reloading is well documented by our discussions here.

 

[CommandoBob]

Per Team Decision

Make embassy with America.
Sign MA with America vs. Celts, expect money from America.
Sign MA with Spain vs. Celts, may have to pay.
Sell techs to Spain and get WM.
Investigate SF?

Embassy
Build embassy in Washington for 48 gold. Building a horse, 2 turns. (3 rSpear)
Would cost 60 gold to investigate San Francisco.

Washington 50 AD:

Alliances
Sign MA with America against the Celts for Monarchy, 28 gold (all) and WM.
We are at war with the Celts.

Eastward Way, after MA with America 50 AD:

Spain wants contact with the Ottomans and Currency for MA vs. the Celts. Since we want to sell techs to Spain, investigate cash. Spain has 77 gold and will do the deed for 242 more in gold.
Done.
Spain Declares War 50 AD:

For Currency Spain will offer WM, 310 gold and 11gpt.
For Currency and Construction Spain will offer WM, 319 gold (all) and 44gpt.
Done.
We've been had. Stupid Spanish! On the island of Vitoria, they settled it and the galley went right back to Spain. They never explored the far side of the island!

I thought I had not included the WM in the trade, so I went back to my personal copy of the last save and bought the WM. Same details around Vitoria.
Well, we've got their money and we know they lack initiative.

@ControlFreak: Began playing this before your previous post. Will go back and investigate SF.

 

[CommandoBob]

Per team decision:
Investigate San Francisco for 60 gold.


San Francisco 50 AD

(Photobucket is doing maintenance at this time. Will upload image later)

San Francisco is protected by 1 rSpear.

It is building the Hanging Gardens.

It will be completed in 36 turns.

 

[Niklas]

Alright, seems we have all the intel on the current situation. Time for decisions and playing, finally.

The Eastern Way is still not guaranteed by the map from Spain, but it hasn't been disproved either. We should follow the plan set up by CF to scout it out and possibly send troops straight for Entremont.

Some thoughts on gathering troops, Eastern Way:

• Victoria should switch to galley right away. Tromsmurkz could rush one for 80 gp. That makes 4 galleys on the eastern side, should be enough for the assault on Entremont if the way is clear.
• Olive, River and Nan all have barracks and could switch to swords. Nan will finish in 1, Olive in 2 and River in 3. I think we need only one of them, which should be Nan, so the other two can continue on libraries.
• We have three additional vSwords in Kastle, Indianapo and outside Capulco, to fill the boats from Trom and outside Delphia
• The ship from Victoria can be filled by the vSword in Istanbul and the eSword by San Ansmurkzio. The one from Istanbul will take 5 turns to reach Victoria if it starts moving this turn, the same time it will take the scouting galley to get back again.
• The scouting galley can be filled by the eHorse at Kazan, and one vHorse from somewhere, for instance there are two beneath the eSword near San Ansmurkzio.

This makes 6 swords (one elite) and two horses (one elite), the odds of taking Entremont with 3 rSpears at city size is then >97%.

The Western Way:

• In two turns we know whether the Eastern Way is safe. If it's not, we should then rush galleys in Kastle and Stein, and switch (rush?) Vladivo.
• The only town in the north with a barracks is Karakorum. We could possibly rush a sword there.
• In 6 turns we can have the vSwords from Istanbul and Carthage, the wounded one outside Sabratha, and the eSword near SA all near the tip of the land. Add one for Karakorum makes 5, fill up with three horses. Odds are still >95%.
• Follow the path CB painted, march to end up on the hills, attack in approximately 16-17 turns from now.

Note that the units involved in the Eastern Way should start moving towards the east right away, they will still have time to get back. The ones only involved in the Western Way should start moving towards there right away.

Btw, we can now make Eng in 4 at 80% research and only -2gpt, sweet!

Lots of MMing to do still, for instance Deer doesn't need a library, could build settlers or keep up the workers instead.

 

[Methos]

I'm officially on vacation, again! I don't have to be back to work until the 3rd of January! Now, it's time to relax and play lots of civ. Oh yeah, and a few items on the honey-do list.

I believe it's my turn to play correct? It won't be until tomorrow morning before I can play. Tonight we're doing a little last minute Christmas shopping.

 

[Niklas]

I believe it's my turn to play correct?

Boy, you've really been out of it.

No, it's not your turn yet, there's been lots and lots of discussion surrounding CB's turnset that he hasn't even played yet. I suspect he might play tonight though , so tomorrow morning it should indeed be your turn. Not that you should play then, we'll have more to discuss...

Congratulations on your vacation though. I will have about 2 days or so off - saturday and sunday...

 

[Methos]

Boy, you've really been out of it.

Yes, that's for sure. Between coming back from the cruise and getting back into the norm, plus preparing for the holidays, I just haven't been able to stay focused on all my games. Now though, I have around ten days to do just that, so man am I looking forward to playing civ!

Edit: Any of you all got CivIV yet? Many of you mentioned possibly around Christmas time.

 

[CommandoBob]

Any of you all got CivIV yet? Many of you mentioned possibly around Christmas time.

CivIV = Divorce Court (or at least a marital fast , no, wait, PTW and SGs does that)

Plus, my machine is a PII 500 MHz 128 MB RAM; won't even run C3C.

 

[Niklas]

Haven't gotten Civ IV yet, no. I'm planning to pick it up some time soonish, but it might be some time into January before I get around to it. Right now I've got plenty of Civ3 games to keep me occupied so I'll manage (and besides, I might just get it for Xmas ).

EDIT: CB, ready to post the long-mid-short stuff?

 

[Niklas]

More MMing notes (in order of appearance in the list):

• New Heim makes too much food, move a citizen off the cow to the lake instead. It will grow in one and get the lost shield back so we only gain by working the lake.
• San Ansmurkzio should switch the plains for iron for two turns, then back to the plains on the third to grow and get the iron on growth.
• Edrine needs one food to grow, switch citizens to work lake and coast for one more gpt net.
• Delphia is fine.
• Grad should take the cow from New Heim, and work the forest. The two coastal citizens should go to this. And switch to Great Library of course.
• Sabratha is fine.
• Deer has no use for a library, I'd suggest a settler instead. Prioritize shields and commerce, so skip the deer tile until the settler is done.
• Ari should take the plains from LMin, growth in one and will get the forest on growth.
• House of the Beard should switch to market, and grow.
• Nan switches to sword, doesn't need a library so we could go for a settler after that, or another sword.
• Kazan, see earlier post.
• Ismurkz should keep growing in two. I go back on my previous suggestion for settlers here, those spices are too tempting. Library, then aqueduct.
• Food is rather hemmed. By giving the BG from Cape and giving it to River, Food can get the freed grassland instead of the desert.
• River should take the BG from Cape as noted, leaving a grassland for Food.
• Olive should keep up the library, then go for aqueduct and harbor.
• Victoria should switch to galley.
• Leptis Minor, see earlier post.
• Indianapo is fine.
• Kalmurkz won't have use for a library until the jungle is cleared, I'd rather build workers here despite the slower growth.
• Albu can't grow without an aqueduct, can switch a plains to work the hills being mined.
• Canal and Atroid are both fine.
• Cabana, Missi, CftS, Zentral, see earlier post.
• Capulco could work the hills for one more spt.
• Amzee needs a harbor!
• Trom should rush a galley on turn two if the Eastern Way is safe.
• Cape should work two coastal tiles.
• Vladivo should switch to galley if the Eastern Way is not safe.
• Kastle should rush a galley on turn two if the Eastern Way is not safe.
• Zala should keep growing, is fine.
• Land is fine.
• Stein should keep growing, is fine.
• Istanbul and Carthage are fine.
• Karakorum should rush a sword on turn two if the Eastern Way is not safe.

 

[WarDance]

Edit: Any of you all got CivIV yet? Many of you mentioned possibly around Christmas time.

I asked Santa for it. The funny thing is Santa apparently delegated it to my mother-in-law (who you may have heard me rant about before), and she was shopping online and then called my wife to ask "Do you think he wants Civilization 4 or Civilaztion 5?". I think she doesn't understand Roman numerals... It wouldn't surprise me as the other day I was giving her directions to some shop and she didn't know which way was north from her house.

 

[CommandoBob]

Primary Focus

• Make sure we get the GLib.
• Maintain 4-turn research for the rest of the game

Long Term Strategy

• Send Gandhi to space (ETA ~1500-1700)
• Give India a core to work with AFTER we gift India ONE city in 750 (60-70 turns)
• Reduce all other AI’s to OCC (home island is done, no time table on the New World)
• Build up City for the Sages to be a SCC (super science city) with lib and uni and Copernicus and Newton
• Connect luxuries to make us able to handle the WW from India.
• Learn things at 4 turns per tech.

Mid Term Strategy

• Deny the Celts any wonder they may be building in Entremont. Will require military action. We are at war with the Celts, and have MAs with Spain and America against the Celts. These MAs will last through these turns and Methos’ turns, and then expire.
• Prepare Smurkzgrad to give to India. Build the Great Library in Smurkzgrad.
• Reduce the Celts to an OCC before the MAs expire.
• Begin a third core in the New World.

My Term Strategy

• Lots of MM, already detailed in several places. (Post #540 and #574)
• Change builds in some cities to produce galleys. niklas has detailed these changes just a few posts earlier.
• In turn 2, determine which way to invade, the Eastern Way or the Western Way. (Post #559)
• Assemble and launch the Celt Invasion Forces, depending which way we must strike. Will send 4 galleys and 8 units. (Post #568)
• Build libraries and markets (mostly).
• Pay attention to ControlFreak’s excellent Worker Dissertation (Posts #542 and 552). I, too, think that it is good enough for a stand alone article in the War Academy.
• I am asking Santa for a turn of no bloopers.

Questions

• Do we need/want follow up forces to subdue the Celts? Our forces will not arrive until Methos’ turns, but it would be good to know now what we plan to do with Entremont once we capture it.
• We are researching Feudalism. Stick with it or switch to Engineering?

I have to do some running around, so it will be several hours before I am able to play my turns.

 

[ControlFreak]

Questions

• Do we need/want follow up forces to subdue the Celts? Our forces will not arrive until Methos’ turns, but it would be good to know now what we plan to do with Entremont once we capture it.
• We are researching Feudalism. Stick with it or switch to Engineering?

I think you will need more than 8 swords to accomplish this: "Reduce the Celts to an OCC before the MAs expire."

zyxy's plan was to go for Engineering and trade it for Monotheism. It think that's wise since the AI researches Feudalism often. You shouldn't have any research into Feudalism yet, so do the switch.

Reduce all other AI’s to OCC (home island is done, no time table on the New World)

Technically, the Ottomans are 2CC. Is it worth it to take one of MY worthless, good for nothing spearman or a regular un-upgraded warrior and sit him on the iron to prevent the Ottomans from connecting it? At some point, either Bursa or Izmit must go, and I don't think the Mongols or Ottomans should be left in the same play pen.

More MMing notes (in order of appearance in the list):

That's not how they show in my list. I love using the rank functions and rank by shields/food/happiness...just about everything. The problem is I haven't figured out how to go back to the original order.

I have a few additions/modifications to Niklas' grand list.:

• CotS (I couldn't find the previous post that's referenced.)can use both oysters for growth in 1.
• Grad, we want it to be bigger and stronger in production. Doing what Niklas said (lakes move to cow and forest) gets us to 11spt which is the best we can get for now. The mine on the incense hill is in progress and can be sped up by one turn by waking one of the miners on the Albu hill and adding him to Grad's mining project. Don't wake both because the second worker will be wasted. (6/3 = 6/4 = 2 turns) The forests is due to be chopped down in 2 turns which adds 10 shields to Beards market but takes away 1spt from Grad until it's mined. I would wake the workers and move them to a plains tile in range of Grad and start mining over the irrigation. Using the Cow, Grad can get two more mined plains for 0fpt at size 9, using only 12WT instead of mining the mountain for 18WT. As the mines complete, you can add a worker to Grad to get it to to the new size faster.
• Deer should really go back to making more workers. There is no reason to be wasting all the food we'd have to. Without border expansions, there isn't enough tiles to justify an aqueduct. The workers have plenty to do and can also be used to make potentially productive cities grow faster.
• Albusmurkz should rush or finish the library and then go on full time worker duty. It can make workers every two turns indefinitely with 2 flood plains, two [2F,1S] tiles and a hill or forest, cycling from 5.5 to 6.5. The flood plains area is getting congested and can't be fixed without a lot of improved tiles in the jungle area and then swapping tiles. This further emphasizes the need for deer and at least one other town to be on workers full time. The power of workers outweighs the need to have improvements in Albus at the moment. If a market is desired for income, we could rush it, but at this point, it's only going to get 2-3gpt when science is turned up.
• Kalmurkz is part of the problem with the crowded Flood plain area. We should not have let it grow to size 4 without having cleared more dye tiles for it. If push comes to shove, and you need anther tile for our inner ring cities, push one of Kalmurkz citizens onto the jungle dye. That will stop growth and free a mined grassland.
• Leptis Minor should switch to worker to get the free pop of a 1 pop settler/abandon. Same for Karakorum although I think that will be on sword duty if the Eastern way doesn't pan out per Niklas' list.

 

[WarDance]

All plans are looking good. I don't have anything to add.

 

[Niklas]

Looking good. I have one thing to add though, which is an emphasis. All the plans are good, but some things stand out as more important. These are

• Make sure we get the GLib.
• Maintain 4-turn research for the rest of the game.

In particular I want to stress the latter. Right now it's easy to do wo, but we should be careful not to miss a step. We're bound to be far behind the other teams with our min run on Republic and the turns with 0% research. We can't afford to lose any more turns, so 4-turners all the way!

EDIT: Oh, and I agree to the addendums by CF!

CB, good luck!

 

[CommandoBob]

I have to do some running around, so it will be several hours before I am able to play my turns.

Well, several hours turned into many hours and I still have not played my turns. It is 2.30 am local time (GMT -6) and I figure it will take at least 6 hours to play and log the turns. It is far too late for that.

I printed out these posts to guide me in my turns:

• Post #540 Niklas' detailed MM for Zerntral, Missi, Cabana, City for the Sages, Ismurkz, Arismurkz, Sumrkz-am-zee, Kazan, Leptis Minor and Karakorum.
• Post #559 ControlFreak shows us the Eastern Way.
• Post #568 Niklas explains militray moves for the Eastern and Western Way.
• Post #574 Niklas's MM for all cities, ranked in some order.
• Post #576 Strategy guide for this set of turns.
• Post #577 ContolFreaks's upgrades to Niklas's MM (later approved by Niklas).
• Worker Dissertation by ControlFreak.

I also printed the maps of the Eastern Way and the Western Way.

For my plan now is to go to bed and get rested. Later this morning I will get up, make some coffee, gather my wits and play my turns. And my turns should be fairly easy. The biggest unanswered question is which way to invade, which we will know by then end of turn 2. Most everything else involves MM the building of city improvements and MM worker turns. For both of these I have excellent guide(s).

Just wanted to let the team know what was going on. (Didn't want to disappoint the !)

@Niklas and ControlFreak: It is possible to rank cities? On my MM, I start at the capital and just move through the list that way, using the left and right arrows to change cities. This list is mostly in order of city founding. I say mostly because it seems that one city, number 20 or 24 or so, always gets moved way up in the order for no reason.