SGOTM 9 - Smurkz

ControlFreak said:
I would really like to go after the Ottomans sooner rather than later to take advantage of the 3 roving settlers. That means I need a town to gift them soon. How about this:
I will (auto)raze Ta-Tu and Kazan in a few turns. That should make the Ottoman settlers yoyo down to the choke and back to try to fill in. I should be able to get the New Mogol town for peace leaving them OCC in Tabriz as originally intended. I then can gift the island town to the Ottomans as a temporary holding cage while we sack the Ottomans.

I would continue the war against Carthage until we have Hippo and Leptis Minor. Then settle for peace if war happiness is over. They will have spent their GA in despotism with no improvements by the time we return.

Just a doublet this time :D.

I really don't understand why we should gift towns. Ottomans already have a nice town in the tundra up north. Why not let them keep that?

Mongol war: I would raze and replace (in new location) Ta-Tu, capture Kazan (if possible), settle capital, and raze and replace Tabriz. Let Mongols keep their new island holdings. Tabriz has iron and culture-threatens several towns, so I prefer that it goes.

Carthage: as long as we're in despotism we can keep attacking until we run out of steam. No war weariness. Agree that ring 5 cities are essential, but I would also like to get silks. Their GA could be a problem, but so far all these civs have been ridiculously weak IMO - even Carthage. If we make peace, we're bound to it for 20 turns, which is too long I think. If you want to do Carthage in 2 tries, then definitely go for Carthage first, then Otto's, then come back for Carthage. I fear they will be a lot stronger then.

Otto's: lowest priority atm because they are weak and because our armies are not in position. We could just take out their settlers and then fight a holding action. Once Carthage starts to crumble, we can start fighting Otto's in earnest.

The units on the western choke could join the attack on Carthage. In any case, it's harder for the AI to sail around a choke than to just walk through it.
 
WarDance said:
Turn 7) 1075 BC: Vasmurkzas founded at choke. Citizen becomes a scientist and science to 0%. Vet archer clears camp for 25, now 3/4.

IBT: Carthaginians declare war!!! Dastardly rats!

And later Hannibal sends a lone archer to attack us.

So, Carthage launches one (1) sneak attack, defeats one (1) warrior, razes one (1) city and sends one (1) follow-up military unit.

Granted, Hannibal (AI) is not smart. I did not expect him to be this, uh, stupid?

I do not see what good Carthage did for itself attacking us.
 
Niklas said:
I don't think we need to worry about resource exhaustion, we'll have iron plenty in other places if that should happen. Why do I get the feeling you only asked that to have something to ask? :p
Actually, I wasn't thinking about our iron. The southern iron is actually India's iron. Not that I want them to have a powerful army, but I would like them to build rails on their own. An I would feel really bad if they had an opportunity to build the ironworks in a core town slip away because of shoddy resource managers.:p I have plenty of things to ask so what I post is always something important to me. Just not necessarily all that intelligent or appropriate.:confused:

zyxy said:
Otto's: lowest priority atm because they are weak and because our armies are not in position. We could just take out their settlers and then fight a holding action. Once Carthage starts to crumble, we can start fighting Otto's in earnest.

My only urgency to hitting the Ottomans is I dont want "our" 6 slaves to turn into 3 autorazing cities. I may take your idea and fight a holding war, absorbing whatever offensive units the Ottomans can muster. The problem is that we have very few "holding" units. Most of the units we have are needed if I'm going after carthage. The stack must be much bigger to take on 2-3 Numidian's. Pulling all the units towards Hippo is going to open the borders considerably.

I was planning on doing the city gifting thing because Carthage doesn't own a good prison at the moment. However, gifting to them means waiting out the 20 turns of peace. I agree with you that they will be much stronger in 20 turns but so will we. I guess I'll just see how much resistance they put up. (How many losses we suffer against their defenders.) If I come to a crossroad during my turn, I'll stop and post for help.

To increase the "defensive" units, I thought about disconnecting the northern, corrupt towns by cutting the main road for a turn. Then set everyone to warrior builds to be upgraded for make shift defenders. They'd only be regulars but they'd be ready in 10 turns instead of 20 (spear), They'd provide good backline support, and they'd help the FPJ calculation. I'll wait until Ta-Tu and the Capitol are founded first (my two wandering settler choices). Of course, I'm going to need a barracks on the front lines which will have to be rushed. Being militaristic, I can pop rush a barrack in Karakorum at the cost of one mongolian citizen.

EDIT: Oops, nevermind! The Iron in the north is still connected. I may pop rush the barracks anyway. We could use the quick healing to be closer to the front.

I'll start in a few hours.
 
ControlFreak about FPJ to New Ta-Tu said:
I knew it wasn't a good idea when I posted but I wanted to up the post count. :p
ControlFreak said:
I have plenty of things to ask so what I post is always something important to me. Just not necessarily all that intelligent or appropriate.
:rolleyes: :p

I played around some with the combat simulator. A stack of 4 swords and 4 horses have >90% chance of taking a town with two fortified regular mercs on hills (~85% if defenders are veteran). Attacking with the horses first reduces the chances to winning slightly (a few percent units) but also reduces the mean number of lost units (not surprisingly).
Same setup for a town on flat ground gives >95% chance of winning. Two more swords vs hills also gives >95% chance.
Mean units lost were in all simulations between 2 and 2.5.

All in all not too shabby, I think we could easily roll over at least the first two Carthagian towns.

On the one hand, it would be nice if we could let the Carthagians spend a useless GA, and that we could get Iznik which is in the way of our inner ring.
On the other hand, it would be nice to end this war as soon as we possibly can, to increase the gains of Republic. Since Ottos don't have iron, rolling over them will be easy whenever we do it, and a holding war should be fairly easy as well. So for a fast war we should go down hard on the Carthaginians now when we have the chance.

I think CF's plan makes sense. Go down on Carthage now, and see how much resistance they put up.

I had planned to go through the save and give some MMing advice. But I don't seem to get the time, and I don't think you really need it. :)
 
CommandoBob said:
And later Hannibal sends a lone archer to attack us.

So, Carthage launches one (1) sneak attack, defeats one (1) warrior, razes one (1) city and sends one (1) follow-up military unit.

Granted, Hannibal (AI) is not smart. I did not expect him to be this, uh, stupid?

I do not see what good Carthage did for itself attacking us.

Hannibal just went for the immediate tactical advantage, as the AI is likely to do. As you say, it is surprising that we haven't seen more attacks after that. In other games I have had Carthage attack me with Numidians in such a situation, and that this doesn't happen now is a good sign that the Carthagian armies are weak.

Good luck, CF!
 
I should have known not to check this thread. I'm not even sure how many pages I'm already behind. Unfortunately it costs like 40 cents a minute so I'm definitely going to fall behind on this one.

Anyway, keep up the good work guys!

And yes, things are great here.;)
 
Just checking in so you don't worry about me.

I'm playing really slowly like always and there have been some RL interuptions so I'm only about halfway. I should finish late today.

The wars are going well. ;) Unfortunately, I took all your comments about needing a LOT of settlers a little too seriously and ended up with 9 settlers without enough escorts to get them where we need them. I will spend the second half of my turn trying to remedy that.

Oh, and Carthage has settled their own prison town so it looks like we don't need to do the massive shuffle.
 
ControlFreak said:
Unfortunately, I took all your comments about needing a LOT of settlers a little too seriously and ended up with 9 settlers without enough escorts to get them where we need them. I will spend the second half of my turn trying to remedy that.
Wee, that means I get to come up with lots of fun city names in my turnset! :D

Sounds good CF, keep it up!
 
Turn 0 (550BC):
Worker chops deer. Horse unblocks the choke and joins his friends to the north. Lead settler backtracks a bit to join the lone worker roading toward Ta-Tu. Ta-tu will fall first and will be more defensible then sending the settler alone to Green-Dot. Slave in forest SE to start irrigation towards the lambs. Archer climbs mountain between the barb and camp.

Change some preferences to make movements faster and not renegotiate deals.

Starting from top down, I go through each city. Changes as follows:
  • Karakorum - switch to barracks and rush at the cost of one foreigner.
  • VV switch to harbor, it's cheap because we're militaristic, but could be switched to library when we know lit. 1HP Horse moved to Karakorum for the barrack coming next turn. The 3/4 Sword stays there to heal and cover VV.
  • Kalmurkz uses river forest instead of BG, still growth in 1 (zyxy pointed this out in his posts so don't count this as MM I did.)
  • OlSmurkzRiver switches to horseman. The swords are too slow at this point. It can use the freed BG from Kalmurkz, leaving a BG for Olive.
  • HouseOfTheBeard switches to settler. I'm going to drop it's population to make the FPJ easier and to free up the MPs (as well as prepare for switching to Republic).
  • Smurkzgrad switches to horseman.
  • Oy switches to worker and use grass instead of forest for 2SPT. It will grow in 2 and will use the forest then for the extra 2 shields need for the worker. I know we need settlers, but Oy is still unimproved and could build settlers faster if it had more improvement.
  • Move warrior and archer south from the western choke to have them help with barbs/India/upgrades. Wake the horse in Heim and send him north. The horse that made it as far as HotB will cover his area. Rename Warrior02 so he stops confusing me (he's a sword). Wake horseman in Albusmurkz and send him towards the front. The sword in Albusmurkz climbs the mountain leaving Albusmurkz undefended. I hope that draws the barb onto low ground for easier killing.

No good trading opportunities so I hold my breath and hit space.

IBT Ottoman pairs all move toward the Choke. Numidian appears by our settler/worker near Ta-Tu. Carthage settler pair appears south of our warrior/archer headed home (from a galley). That might be a good thing. A town in this jungle would be a good prison for Carthage. No Mongol movement.

Karakorum barracks>spear. Smurkheim settler>settler, reset to 5fpt.


Turn 1 (530BC): In general, I'm moving the horsemen from the south to Karakorm for an attack on the Ottoman towns. The swords are going towards Hippo. (I may by pass Kazan to get to Hippo with more power and have the horses from the Ottoman war swing around to grab Kazan later. It's size 2 but I can't attack it this turn. The catapults will be more useful against Carthage so they too will head toward that front instead of wasting time on Ta-Tu. The worker stack finish the road to Ta-Tu, allowing 3 swords and 2 archers to prepare for the attack next turn. Healed sword from VV covers the Settler/worker from the Numidian. The 3 worker stack moves to make the road to green dot. The sword stack near Kazan moves N into enemy territory. The 3 swords by Karakorum, follow road, then mountain to be near the Ottoman road.

To the West, the warrior/archer fortify waiting to see what the Carthage Settler pair does. Archer kills barb warrior in camp but horseman has appeared. Sword moves back into Albusmurkz since barb moved to other mountain instead of coming into the valley.

Workers finish a two mines near Olive in a chain reaction. The left over workers split to a)help Olive's deer chop and head north to start irrigating around New Ta-Tu. Worker in south moves to forest that will either help HotB or Albu with their settlers. I pull the worker out of the jungle at the choke to have him help improve the north as well. There is a lot of unimproved terrain up there.

MM Trying to figure out what zyxy means with the cow swapping, I give the cow to Grad who makes 3fpt for growth in 1, Horse in 1. Heim keeps lamb for 3f,5s. Adelphia gets all the BGs for 2f,8s. Oy works a coastal tile for 3f,2s, should grow, use forest and finish worker. Shift some plains around in Grad to let HotB use all plains for 3f,10s, finish settler in 1.

Trying to balance the food around Food and River They need two turns with 4FPT and 1 with 2FPT or 1 with 6FPT and 1 with 4FPT. Opt for the 2FPT using 1FP and 1 Foreset in River this turn. I will just keep trying to make sure they don't need 4FPT on the same turn.

Trading Ottomans have Construction. Construction costs 332g. Philosophy is worth 112g and our Map is worth 20g. Mongols have Construction also and would give it plus a worker for peace, but not their island city Ulaanbaatar. No Deals yet. I'm guessing Carthage with swap currency for construction.

IBT Numid attacks sword on the settler/worker and dies, promoting our sword to 4/5. Carthage archer appears near Ta-Tu stack. (I'll need to watchout leaving unprotected workers/cats.) Ottoman pairs generally move East instead of S. Indians want to talk: "No, not now!".

Grad horseman>settler, set to 1f,6s using both lakes. It will get more shields from the forests when it gets the cow back. Oy does finish it's worker>worker, Restart it's cycle at 3f,4s. Beard settler>settler at 3f,7s. River horse>horse will MM later.


Turn 2 (510BC):
Battle for Ta-Tu, I attack with the Elite swords first since we're not ready for a leader yet and I have a small attack group. First sword redlines the spear but then promotes him. Second sword redlines the spear but then dies. A third regular spear appears. I hope I have enough units. Regular sword wins at 3/4. Elite archer kills 2/4 spear and last unit kills 1/3 spear to raze the city and capture it's worker. With only three troops in the Ta-Tu area left, I'm praying Carthage doesn't have a big stack headed there. As it is, there is no defense for the archer from Carthages archer.

The Swords progress towards Hippo. The workers move to road towards Isnik. The horses fan out around Karakorum while they wait for the fresh troops to arrive. Archer kills barb horse to take 25g. The sword in Albu mirrors the barb warrior. A warrior from HotB is no longer needed for MP and moves to Grad where he could be upgraded if need be. Two worker pairs enter forests near River and Olive. I'd rather delay the chop but it's the only way I could avoid wasting move turns. The chops will help build a galley and a horse with no loss.

The galley has lost sight of the Mongol galley and is exploring the N tip of the island, without suiciding.

MM Heim gives up the lamb also so Grad and Adelphia can work forests for max shields. Grad finishes settler in an even 3 and Adelphia will be one shield over for settler in 2. The slower growth in Heim is slowing it's settler build too but I haven't done the math to see if it's worth it. It seems like it is since I want to lower the population in all core cities.

Since Food doesn't have a forest available, it gets set to 3fpt for the remaining 2 turns. Albusmurkz uses a FP and forest for 2fpt this turn. Next turn, it gets 2FP and grows.

IBT Carthage archer kills our wounded archer in the ruins of Ta-Tu. That was the straw that broke the camels back, our War Happiness is gone. Carthage indeed founds a prison camp.

Ottoman settler pair moves W towards Ta-Tu open land, The remaining 2 move south. I will leave it alone for now. Mongol archer emerges from Kazan near our Catapult stack.


Turn 3 (490BC):
Horseman kills Mongol Archer. Sword (3/4) kills Carthage archer. New Ta-Tu is settled set to Temple Prebuild for a Library, but I may change to a worker.

Slave on FP by Ta-Tu starts a road, two workers move to his tile and will finish road next turn.

Swords move towards Hippo bypassing Kazan. Unfortunately both Hippo and Kazan are size 1 so I'm going to have to replace both. Closest settler is 6 turns from Hippo. One settler is on the way. Workers move to road towards Isnik and Kazan. War with Ottomans will start in 2 turns so I'm following the Settlers with some units. Workers chop. Food's worker finishs his road and moves to finish HotB's mine. That worker is freed and moves to Food's other Grass tile to road. Warrior fortifies in Grad. Galley goes out and back Sea/Ocean/Sea/Coast. Nothing there, he'll head up the Eastern Seaboard.

Sword finally kills barb warrior.

MM Luxury raised to 10% now that war happiness is gone. Olive can be made happy by MM to more commerce, but Nansmurkzet needs the Horseman from Heim for MP. Heim gets lambs back from Adelphia. Deer goes 4f,2s. Albu uses 2 FP for growth in 1.

IBT All three Ottoman pairs head south.

Adelphia settler>horseman.


Turn 4 (470BC):
Move all (9) Horseman in the N to the forest by Ottoman's 2 cities. They are both above size 1 and I if I can take them the turn of war, we should capture both. Swords and horsemen cover all settler pairs with 2 units to spare.

Swords advance past Kazan. I'm thinking now that I should have gone straight for Leptis Minor since it's still at size 3. I may head that way if Hippo doesn't grow. A Numidian is on the Hills NE of L.Minor. Worker finished roading the forest by Deer and moves to mine one of the irrigated grasslands.

MM Nansmurkzet switches to settler to get rid of some unhappy people. It goes 0f,4s working 2 coasts for the settler to finish in one. Adelphia gets the lams back for growth in one. That leaves Heim at 2F,5s using the lake. It can finish it's settler and grow next turn when it takes back both Cow and Lamb. That put's it at 3.0, a result of giving food to Grad and Adelphia. The three FP towns are still sharing the FP tiles as follows: River always gets 2FPs and works a forest for 2 turns. Food gets 2FP on the first turn after growth, then 1FP for the remaining 2 turns. Albu gets 1FP and works a forest on the first turn after growth, then it gets 2FP.

Moving all the Horsemen towards Ottoman left Karakorum empty. Because of the whip, it's not happy and hires an entertainer for this turn.

IBT Ottoman pairs move south. It looked like a Numid moved from the hills NE of L.Minor 2 spaces to the tile S of the gold. I know they only have a movement of 1 so there's 2 Numids SE of Karakorum. A sword also comes from L.Minor. Hope I haven't spread myself too thin.

Grad settler>horse at 1F,6S. Deer worker>worker. Nan settler>horse. Olive galley>galley. The worker chop will get the deer tile to give 3fpt, growing in one.


Turn 5 (450BC):
Move some of the swords in position to protect the tiles from Numids. Get the cap and settler out of the numidian's range.

I demand Contruction from Osman until he is furious. Then I tell him to get out but he conceeds. Guess I have to declare myself.

First horse attacks warrior pair on our road and takes only 1HP before dying. Second horse kills the warrior ending 2/4. Elite Sword redlines :eek: against second warrior but finishes him off. Veteran sword also redlines against spear on the hill but kills him. 6 new slaves captured.

Osman cheated and whipped something in Edrine so it's only size 1. First horse attacks Iznik and retreats from 2/3 spear. Second horse kills r-spear and reveals the 2/3. Third horse dies after redlining the wounded spear. He didn't promote? Fourth horse dies and now spear promotes. Fifth horse wins at 2/4 and Iznik is ours. The new borders reveal a spear/settler pair I missed to the SE. With only four horses left and Edrine whipped, I opt to chase the settler instead of attacking Edrine. Veteran horse scores a flawless victory and two more slaves are ours. I move one horse in and out of edrine to check the status of the road. It's unconnected so our wounded horses are save from counterattack. Remaining 2 horses escort two catapults to the Numidian, who go 1 for 2 and drop the Numid to 2/3. The horses fortify, thinking we're going to be better off with him attacking. I don't have a better defender to cover.

The new galley head north also. This is probably a waste since it's all explored. I'll Turn him around next turn.

MM With spices now in our possession, I can go back to 0% Lux with no unhappiness. Horse is returned to Heim from Nansmurkzet for better response to danger.

Heim gets both Cow and Lambs for growth in 1, should complete settler if the forest is picked. Got Adelphia Grad and Nan both doing 6spt by stealing BG from Oy Deer. I think it won't need the shields to complete the worker. HotB will grow and make settler next turn. I'm not sure it would pick a forest in this case so I set it to the required 9S. Olive is switched to Barracks so that the forest chops will be used for different things and nothing will be wasted. FP towns MM per the plan.

Save to do some work stuff.
 
IBT Carthage moves the second Numid next to our cats, the wounded one climbs the gold mountain instead of attacking.:(

Heim settler>settler. HotB settler>spear. Food settler>worker.


Turn 6 (430BC):
Cataputs fire at Numid but both miss. Swords cover horse/cats. Settler moves towards Kazan.

I change my mind and decide to go raze Hippo first, the settler is on its way and will be there in 4 turns. I will have a problem bringing the cats along though because the attack point is from the unroaded mountain. Edrine has expanded border and is back to size two so it can be captured. I need the horses to rest though so it won't be next turn. All wounded horses return to Karakorum.

I have NINE settlers. The most southern one is the one from Nansmurkzet. He starts heading toward the ivory, all others continue N toward the Green Dot area. I will start settling the pink dots as the space is available. Workers are concentrating on irrigating the Karakorum/VV area because there aren't enough troops to protect combat worker operations. I haven't razed Kazan yet because I'm not prepared to take Tabriz and I don't want the border expantion to cause slower troop movement.

MM River is going to waste some of the chop sheilds so I focus on commerce instead. Heim gets cow and lamb and lake. Most other towns are maintained. Warrior leaves HotB to MP River who will grow unhappy next turn. Switch River to swordsman to help the attack on Tabriz.

IBT Healthy Numidian moves to the hills south of Karakorum. The wounded fortifies on the gold mountain. A Sword emerges from L.Minor Heading towards our stack near Hippo.

Olive barracks>sword.


Turn 7 (410BC):
Cat's go 1 for 2 and bring Mountain Numid to 1/3.
Horse moves to cover our roaded iron hill. Sword covers catapults. I attempt to resume combat worker operations with a horse as cover. Settler moves to the forest pink dot. Other settler is one tile from Green Dot. 8 Swords climb the mountain by Hippo I hope it's enough. That leaves the catapults exposed on the tile south of the mountains.

In the south, the mines are finishing around Deer and workers head toward Albu to help improve/road toward ivory.

MM Oy uses a coast and a forest, worker should finish on growth shields. Grad works the lake and hills to stay at 6spt but save a wasted food. River does it's 4fpt making 3spt and with the chop should make horseman. Other FP Towns are fine for now. Decide I'd rather have a reg spear than a catapult out of Kalmurkz so I switch it.

IBT Unguarded catapults entice 2/3 Numid to head west. Other Numidian moves to the desert tile SW of our iron.
River Sword>worker. Hmm, should have had a worker from Deer and Spear from Kalmurkz. Appearantly my MM is wrong. Oh I see, growth of Heim stole the forest so Deer had to work a coast instead, and forest that Kalmurkz was working choped so no sheild from that. Ooops.


Turn 8 (390BC):
Cats miss both shots. Sword helps defend the tiles around Karakorum. Missismurki founded at Pink Dot E of iron>spear. Can't move horses to bear on Edrine because Iznik is still resisting, so the horses fan out around the Numidian trying to keep him off defense-bonus tiles.

Siege on Hippo: V-Sword vs Reg Numid Loses (2/3); V-Sword vs Reg Numid WINS! (1/4); E-Sword vs 2/3 Numid WINS! Hippo is razed and we get a slave. Swords will head to L.Minor. Slave moves to mountain as a lookout, he won't finish anything before the combat road crew makes it over. Settler is 1 turn away from Hippo ruins.

MM River stops using forests so that it can give a FP to Food who won't be able to steal from Albu until Albu has another 2food tile. Oy will waste shields no matter what because of my MM snafu so I just let it stay at 4fpt. Grad readjusted to 2f,4s so it will grow in 1 and can use the lake. Heim gets the extra BG. HotB uses plains instead of olives to eliminate the wasted shield. Olive goes to 1F,8S to shave a turn off the sword.

IBT Carthage Archer appears SW of New Ta-Tu. Carthage settler pair disembarks from a boat by the Ivory. No big deal with the Ivory near Hippo in our possession. One resistor is quelled in Iznik. The wounded Numid fortifies near Kazan.

Adelphia horse>horse. Oy worker>worker. Beard spear>spear. Kalmurkz spear>cat.


Turn 9 (370BC):
Swords move towards L.Minor. Settler moves to Hippo ruins. Road crew advances to the other side of Kazan with Horse escort. Sword leaves New Ta-Tu to cover the hill near the Numid. Horse covers other worker crew roading from GreenDot towards Ta-Tu. Northern Galley sees lots of sea tiles and uses the ocean to try to find coast. Ends on a sea tile.

MM Emphasize shields in Grad because governor picked lake instead of forest.

IBT Numid runs for empty Ta-Tu as expected, now I just have to hit him with the cats. Archer runs NW away from Ta-Tu (unless there's a road on that tile). Wounded Numid attacks our worker stack horse :eek: no damage done and the Numid is dead.:woohoo:

Grad horse>horse, Nan horse>horse. Food worker>worker. River worker>sword. Olive Sword>Galley. Albu settler>cat.

Galley was lost at sea. :(


Turn 10 (350BC):
Both cats miss and now we have to deal the Numid. He kills two swords that remove 1HP and then promote him, before a horse finishes him off.

City for the Sages founded on the Hippo ruins. Swords advance on L.Minor. Two horses move to be able to attack if necessary. That makes the strike force 2 cats, 5 swords, and 2 horses. Two more swords are 1 turn behind.

MM Setup sheilds to fit build in most cities. The FP towns are doing 4fpt in Albu and Food. River is working on a sword and can keep just it's 1 FP for five turns but that will make a food surplus in Food. If Oy picks the forest this time, it should grow and make the worker in 1 turn. I think Heim is back on track for 4 turn settlers.

The Handoff
  • There are three unmoved settlers. They have names that suggest their purpose but some can't move towards their goal without risk. There are also a bunch of other unnamed settlers that were moved before I remembered to name them. They basically fill in the RCP 5 ring and most can't get where they're going without escort.
  • Having focused on settlers, we have a big lack of units. Towns are back to being productive and there is a string of horses and swords coming up from the south. You should be really close to having enough units to take Tabriz in the next 2-3 turns. The horsemen are all spreadout in the N trying to block tiles and guide a numidian around. We shouldn't have that problem anymore unless units start coming from W of Ta-Tu. Sorry for the logistical mess. It will take 2-3 turns to put together an organized strike force of horsemen to hit either Edrine or Kazan. We will keep both of those regardless of size (Edrine has expanded and Kazan, with the palace, should expand next turn.)
  • I would wait for the lagging swords before attacking L.Minor. Numids on hills are brutal. For a few more units, you can wake a couple of the Horsemen on the preflight turn and move them to green dot, next turn they move to join the horses by the incense, while the lagging swords move to L.Minor. Then you attack on turn 2 with 7swords and 4 horses. Don't bring all three from Iznik though since it still has 1 resistor.
  • Republic is due next turn. We would be OK switching but I think I would wait until enough units are built to finish the war with the Mongols. I don't want to be waiting 4-8 turns before getting peace with them. Also, with Carthage in it's golden age now, we could use a lot more units on the front than I had. I don't think delaying is that painful and as it stands now, we're making over 50gpt with close to a grand in the bank. Once we capture Kazan and Tabriz, we'll have enough luxuries for size 6 towns.
  • I've had no luck finding the other continent. It takes a while to get boats from the south to the North. I did find an expanse of sea but I never found the end and died on my first turn out of safe waters. I switched Iznik to galley, if it ever stops resisting, you can whip it in 5 turns to make the galley right where it's needed. There are two other galley builds that should complete in the south about five turns from now also.

Sorry no pictures, I've barely had time to play.

The save is here.
 
Alright, looking good, look at that territory graph go! :goodjob:

Roster:
  • WarDance - On Deck!
  • CommandoBob
  • Methos - away until 12/11
  • zyxy
  • ControlFreak - Just Played
  • Niklas - UP!
So 'got it', but I won't have time to look at it in depth until tomorrow. At a quick glance it looks really promising though, I should be able to bring down Tabriz, Kazan, Edrine and L.Minor within my turns with no major trouble. :)
 
Nine settlers? :D That's far more than I though possible. Nice play CF, also on the war fronts. Capturing 8 slaves is a nice boon.

What next:
- I think you are right that we run the risk of spreading thin. First priority should be to knock the Mongols off the continent and make peace, so that we have our backs free. Mongols will give Constr (and worker) for peace, but no cities. Kazan could have been attacked this turn, but we don't have horses available. Probably Mongols will whip IT (but culture expansion of Kazan will prevent autoraze, like CF said).
- Main focus should be on Carthage. L.Minor -> Utica -> Carthage, and from there it's mop up hopefully. An alternative would be to bypass L.Minor for now and head for their core first, but then we have to backtrack and it will probably delay us more. Leptis Minor is a nasty problem. We could get two more cats there in 3 turns it seems, attacking on turn 4. OTOH we should attack as soon as possible, to deprive Carthage of the GA benefit as much as possible. In any case we may want to park a sword on the iron hill N of Utica, to deny the road to Carthage.
- We can start attacking Ottomans as soon as we have half a dozen horses to spare, but we may want to go slowly here: Istanbul still has a chance at the GLight, maybe.
- which city is Carthage allowed to keep? Theveste, Rusicade or Sabratha? They all have pro's and con's.
- India still hasn't done anything? Maybe they were at their maximum unit limit before they got MapMaking? (If such a thing exists). We could move the two cats up north to help out at Carthage.
- Agree we shouldn't go republic yet. Research can go to Lit at max I think, we'll get Currency and Constr soon enough.
- I'm somewhat puzzled by the spears. I guess they could defend vs numidians, but give me a sword anytime...
- There's a vet warrior in Albu that can be upgraded.
 
zyxy said:
- I'm somewhat puzzled by the spears. I guess they could defend vs numidians, but give me a sword anytime...
- There's a vet warrior in Albu that can be upgraded.
I was so desperate for units that I favored 3 spears over 2 swords, just to cover some of our vulnerable units. I was basically going for a cheapo unit (no barracks either). The AI can be steered into going where you want him to go but you need place holders and I didn't have anything to spare. I was also thinking that swords wouldn't get all the way to the front, ever. So why would I pay 10s for a +2 attack that would never strike anything?

The veteran warrior in Albu has just returned from the western choke point. I don't think Albu has a barracks to upgrade him, but he can move to River and then to Tabriz if needed.

One of the galleys coming up could be used to ferry some units towards Carthage across the inland sea? I might be a bit faster from the Ol'SmurkzRiver area. Especially once the Western Dye town is founded and connected. But with contacting the other continent being so important, I don't know if it's worth wasting the boat.

Watch Carthage for contact with the other continent. They have boats in the water and we haven't bought their WM to see if they found anything interesting on that half of the world.
 
Ok, didn't know our unit count was so low. Well, those spears will be good for something, I guess. Been a long time since I've seen one :D.

Few more MM things:
- Karakorum can switch to sword and whip this turn. We gain a vet sword, and lose a Mongol. Sounds like a good deal to me. EDIT: make that next turn. And we need to delay growth, otherwise it will whip a noble Viking citizen.
- It's not very important, but we can still sell the granaries in 'heim and Oy.
- I would settle the dyes town either W-W or W-W-NW of Kalmurkz, to get the bg into play.
- Galley transports across the inner sea sound like a good idea.
 
zyxy said:
Ok, didn't know our unit count was so low. Well, those spears will be good for something, I guess. Been a long time since I've seen one :D.

Few more MM things:
- Karakorum can switch to sword and whip this turn. We gain a vet sword, and lose a Mongol. Sounds like a good deal to me. EDIT: make that next turn. And we need to delay growth, otherwise it will whip a noble Viking citizen.
- It's not very important, but we can still sell the granaries in 'heim and Oy.
- I would settle the dyes town either W-W or W-W-NW of Kalmurkz, to get the bg into play.
- Galley transports across the inner sea sound like a good idea.
Maybe in your hands, the units wouldn't have been spread out so much. Or maybe it was just that you left me in a good position and I gained a lot of territory really quickly. Either way, I just felt I needed more warm bodies. Since they're cheap, we can use them for blocking chokes preventing the little "kids" from killing each other etc.

Karakorum has already been whipped for a barrack in my turn set. Just watch out for unhappiness.

I didn't sell the granarys because I thought they would come in handy to India should he take control of these before he gets the pyramids.

I agree that a principle advantage of the dye towns is gaining that BG for OlSmurkzRiver.

I was pretty sure I found the way to the new continent and it turned out to be a suicide mission. I dont' know if the seafaring trait is what gets the other teams over to the other side so fast but I'm wishing we had the lighthouse right about now.

With that said, I would use the galleys built in the south to ferry troops. I would whip one from Iznik, and keep exploring with it and the one by Nansmurkzet. If the Ottomans manage to build the Lighthouse for us, then we can follow the sea trail when it's safe. I hate throwing shields into the ocean.
 
ControlFreak said:
Maybe in your hands, the units wouldn't have been spread out so much. Or maybe it was just that you left me in a good position and I gained a lot of territory really quickly. Either way, I just felt I needed more warm bodies. Since they're cheap, we can use them for blocking chokes preventing the little "kids" from killing each other etc.

Oh please... any of us would have had a hard time going against Carthage. We are fighting 3 wars now, and you concentrated on settlers (a good thing), so that's why the army count is low I guess. Also, it seems Carthage is countering more than Mongols ever were.

I didn't sell the granarys because I thought they would come in handy to India should he take control of these before he gets the pyramids.

Of course, it's only 7 gold each after all. The one in 'heim should be sold just before we disband the town.

I was pretty sure I found the way to the new continent and it turned out to be a suicide mission. I dont' know if the seafaring trait is what gets the other teams over to the other side so fast but I'm wishing we had the lighthouse right about now.

Yup. Maybe Niklas can generate, oh, 2 or 3 more GL's :D ?
Seriously, if we just keep trying, in different places, then we'll get a ship across sooner or later. It's only 30 shields per ship after all.
The seafaring trait does help: curraghs are dead cheap, come early, and sea-farers have 75% survival rate in ocean, compared to only 50% for us, see here.

Another thing we need to think about is the palace jump. It looks like we have (nearly) enough cities up north to avoid the exploit, and should probably start looking at the jump soon, perhaps the next turnset. Negative effects would mainly be felt in 'heim (or New 'heim), Oy and Nan. Small increase in corruption in 'grad and 'adelphia until we remove the non-ring cities up north. Positive effects up north, where we gain a lot of productive towns.
 
zyxy said:
Another thing we need to think about is the palace jump. It looks like we have (nearly) enough cities up north to avoid the exploit, and should probably start looking at the jump soon, perhaps the next turnset. Negative effects would mainly be felt in 'heim (or New 'heim), Oy and Nan. Small increase in corruption in 'grad and 'adelphia until we remove the non-ring cities up north. Positive effects up north, where we gain a lot of productive towns.
Since I just played, I have the feeling that we can make several surges forward on Niklas' turn.

  • Exile the Mongols.
  • Take Edrine from the Ottomans and push the border up to the narrow neck up there.
  • Take Leptis Minor.
  • Found ALL of the Pink Dots. (I counted settlers and there was one extra settler so he was sent west towards the ivory.)
  • Jump the Palace.
EDITS in BLUE
While I think the FPJ could be done on Niklas' turn, and no one better to organize it than Niklas, we are going to take a big hit in production temporarily. Not because we're going to loose Nan and Oy Deer, but because there aren't any mines up north. The workers have been roading/irrigating the floodplains and roading towards the Ivory. There's a lot of worker turns left to get the shields out of the northern lands, and a lot of growth to be done.

Switching to Republic will also set our production back for a bit, but would allow our cities to grow, so it would be nice to syncronize those events. The problem is that anarchy slows our workers down by half.

My thought was to keep the palace where it is and stay in despotism a little longer. Build up a lot of units and walk/ship them to Carthage. Once Carthage itself is taken, we can revolt and jump. I'm not sure Niklas has enough units, in the right position, to take Carthage on his turn, unless we skip Leptis Minor. Skiping L.Minor will slow down the setting of the pink dots.

At any rate, I think it would be a good idea to stop and save on the turn that we want to Jump/Revolt so everyone can agree that the palace is ready to move to GreenDot (SmurkZentral?).

zyxy said:
Nine settlers? :D That's far more than I though possible.
Actually, there were 10 total. It's back to eight now since I founded Missismurkzi and City for the Sages. :)
EDIT: Of course I inherited some as well.
 
Carthage's new holdings:
CF SG9 Carthage Prisons.jpg
Prison assessment:
  • Rusicade has ivory and India will be bordering them (and was supposed to get that ivory).
  • Sabratha is a canal town, might end up close to india and will be productive once the industrious Carthage clears the jungle.
  • Thevestes gets silks and already has some usable grassland. It's removed from India so they should not kill each other. EDIT: If Carthage gets 2 silks, they could trade one of them to the Indians!
  • New Thevestes founded at the end of the pennisula would be good because it is easily blocked from attack until Marines. It also may or may not get silks. EDIT: Same comment about the silks, but it would require we let their culture expand to the full 21 Radius.
  • Leptis Magna is actually not a bad prison either. It's closer to our core so we can fight culture/flipping easier and it's removed from India. Plus it can't make galleys to escape from the continent.
I favor New Theveste or Leptis Magna with my preference to New Theveste.

The battle front shows a marginal attack force for Leptis Minor:
CF SG9 Carthage Front.jpg

The new Core area has a settler on Green Dot and settlers reserved for all of zyxy's Pink Dots. Note that New Iznik can't be founded without razing Iznik.
CF SG9 New Core.jpg

And the FP core with three pink dots added by me. The one to the south is RCP from Dehli and could be a decent part of their RCP4 core that includes Grad and Oy Deer.
CF SG9 FP Core.jpg
 
ControlFreak said:
  • Exile the Mongols.
  • Take Edrine from the Ottomans and push the border up to the narrow neck up there.
  • Take Leptis Minor.
  • Found ALL of the Pink Dots. (I counted settlers and there was one extra settler so he was sent west towards the ivory.)
  • Jump the Palace.

Looks like a good list. It's always a good idea to pile a lot of tasks on Niklas' plate, it's just a challenge for him to do even more :D.

I would add attacks on Utica and Carthage, because of the silks. We can wait a bit with Edrine if necessary.

Possible timeline:
  • Tabriz: we can attack the town with 2 swords (healing elite at Tabriz, vet from Kalmurkz), 3 horses (all between core and Tabriz) on turn 3. The other sword near Tabriz could either join the attack or move to the main Carthaginian front. The nearby settler could resettle Tabriz, or does he have another target already?
  • Kazan: can assemble 1 sword (from New Capital) and up to 7 horses (from Iznik, and incense tile, for attack on turn 2. Less units would be enough of course, and we may want to keep 1-2 horse at Iznik.
  • L.Minor: harder to estimate, but it would take our units 2-3 turns to reach L.Minor from Kazan. A better alternative would be to divert part of the Kazan force (the horses on the incense tile, and perhaps the one guarding the workers at Kazan), and use the swords at Utica, to mount an attack on turn 2, using 6 swords, 2 cats, and 3 horse (98% chance vs 2 reg numids, with mean loss = 2.2 ). The 3 horses as well as 1 from Iznik could even be moved to where they can strike both targets, just in case.
  • Utica and Carthage: we should be able to attack Utica 3-5 turns after L.Minor, depending on healing. Carthage itself takes another 3-5 turns from there. The sword and archer near Sabratha could help I think, otoh we should perhaps keep the choke.
  • So with some luck this could all be finished on Niklas' turns, and perhaps we would be ready for a palace jump at the end of this turnset, immediately followed by anarchy? Both need small towns, so better combine the two I think.
 
zyxy said:
  • Tabriz: we can attack the town with 2 swords (healing elite at Tabriz, vet from Kalmurkz), 3 horses (all between core and Tabriz) on turn 3. The other sword near Tabriz could either join the attack or move to the main Carthaginian front. The nearby settler could resettle Tabriz, or does he have another target already?
I counted the pink dots and sent that many settlers north. If I counted right, and we forego resettling Iznik, a settler could definitely replace Tabriz.

zyxy said:
  • Kazan: can assemble 1 sword (from New Capital) and up to 7 horses (from Iznik, and incense tile, for attack on turn 2. Less units would be enough of course, and we may want to keep 1-2 horse at Iznik.
  • L.Minor: harder to estimate, but it would take our units 2-3 turns to reach L.Minor from Kazan. A better alternative would be to divert part of the Kazan force (the horses on the incense tile, and perhaps the one guarding the workers at Kazan), and use the swords at Utica, to mount an attack on turn 2, using 6 swords, 2 cats, and 3 horse (98% chance vs 2 reg numids, with mean loss = 2.2 ). The 3 horses as well as 1 from Iznik could even be moved to where they can strike both targets, just in case.
I've seen at least two swords enter Leptis Minor last turn from the west. So I'm guessing we will face an attack on the IBT and have to kill more than two Numids. I'm guessing 2 Numids, 2 Swords and possibly an archer I saw moving West away from Green Dot a few turns back. The Archer SW of New Ta-Tu came from the SW so it's probably not the same one. That's why I recommend bringing the horses to help the swords on L.Minor and then head back for Kazan. Or wait to hit Kazan until the new troops finish Tabriz and arrive on the way to killing Edrine.

If L.Minor really does have 5 units in it, how does that stack up with the odd makers?

zyxy said:
  • Utica and Carthage: we should be able to attack Utica 3-5 turns after L.Minor, depending on healing. Carthage itself takes another 3-5 turns from there. The sword and archer near Sabratha could help I think, otoh we should perhaps keep the choke.
  • So with some luck this could all be finished on Niklas' turns, and perhaps we would be ready for a palace jump at the end of this turnset, immediately followed by anarchy? Both need small towns, so better combine the two I think.

I'm going to guess that losses are going to be heavy at L.Minor. If we lose 3-4 Swords, that only leaves 3-4 to go against Utica and Carthage. Unless we get really lucky at L.Minor, it's going to be more than 3-5 turns before units are ready to go against another Numidian defense.

Maybe it is worth cutting the iron (EDIT As Wardance mentioned earlier...4 pages ago :crazyeye:) and making ~10 Warriors that could be upgraded in Karakorum or River before travelling to Carthage. 400g would take less than half of our account right now and all the lower cities can make swords every other turn. If you don't mind regular swords, the Northern cities could switch to warrior builds so they don't have to walk as far.

If done on the Preflight turn (I think there's enough units left for that) we could get 4 warriors built on the first turn, two in the North (VV and Karakorum) and two in the South (Adelphia and HotB). Grad, Nan, Olive, and River would all make veterans on turn two and would alternate with Adelphia and HotB making warriors on the off turn. So 10 warriors in 3 turns, 14 warrior in 4 turns. and 6 more every 2 turns.

It would take 5 more turns to move them all to River to upgrade.

As best as I can figure, from River, it's 9-10 turns to Carthage no matter which way we go:
  • Walk them counterclockwise through Canal/New Ta-Tu on our roads (9).
  • Finish the galleys, walk to Atroid (3), transport to the Jungle Leptis Magna in three trips (4 if galleys bring the first load on turn 3), take Leptis Magna (1)walk on their road to Carthage(1).
  • Walk them Clockwise to the FP (1), on a new road to a new town (1) and through the Jungle taking Rusicade and Sabratha on the way (7).

To make horses, we have Adelphia, HotB, Grad, Nan, Olive and River making Horses every 5 turns so 12 Horses in 10 turns or 18 horses in 15 turns. It would take them about half the time to get there (using our roads clockwise) so 18 horses at Carthage in 20 turns, vs. 20 Swords in 20 turns. A little advantage for warrior upgrades. 20 Swords would cost 800g though. Maybe a combined force doing ~14 warrior/upgrades followed by Horses?
 
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