SGOTM13 - Separated discussion of test maps

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Moderator Action: Posts in this thread have been split from the general pre-game discussion thread, as they were taking it over.

I'd like to generate test games to explore different strategic options.

The information I'd like is the minimum necessary to have the test game's rectangular shape and position with respect to the initial Settler's location match the actual SGOTM-13 rectangular shape and position with respect to the initial Settler's location.

I tried making a test map before in an earlier SGOTM without such information, but I eventually noticed it was missing a row of plots on the north edge and had extra row of plots on the south edge (when the game had progressed to point where the map edges were sufficiently explored to notice this annoying discrepancy).

An alternative would be a utility that rotates rows 1 North or 1 South and/or rotates columns 1 East or 1 West. This would not require any information beyond what players can observe in the real SGOTM-13 game. Such a utility could fix the "annoying discrepancy" I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

Please frame any answer you might provide, so someone with very little World Builder experience can understand.

Thanks,

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The game speed will be epic.

More info about the map? I wouldn't want to spoil the surprise

(I'm afraid my personal view is that teams that try playing the game on test maps to the level of detail that require precise knowledge of the coordinates of the starting position, before they play turnsets of the actual game are arguably not playing within the spirit of the GOTMs - ie. that each turn you play is supposed to be a step into the unknown on a game you've not played before, on an unfamiliar map).

Sorry, I apparently didn't explain myself very well. Frankly, I wish it were technically possible to enforce a ban on the use of test games. However, the reality is many teams do use test games. It is hard to compete without using test games; past winners of SGOTM, please speak up and tell me you did NOT use test games.

I do NOT want to know the North-South or East-West coordinate of the Settler, despite explicitly asking for it. Otherwise, I would not have proposed the alternative which no one has yet commented on:

.
An alternative would be a utility that rotates rows 1 North or 1 South and/or rotates columns 1 East or 1 West. This would not require any information beyond what players can observe in the real SGOTM-13 game. Such a utility could fix the "annoying discrepancy" I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

Please frame any answer you might provide, so someone with very little World Builder experience can understand.

Meaning one can "fix" the map when information from the real game shows how far off the test game's north-south coordinate was. Last time I tried to do this by hand and abandoned the attempt as it would have taken me hours to do, given WB limitations and my lack of knowledge using WB.

A second alternative would be the SGOTM provide a test game that would say test game. In my opinion, either test games should be banned, regardless of the technical ability to enforce it, or the SGOTM should supply a test game (that could clearly identify itself as a test game.

Just to be clear, my personal opinion is all test games and world builder should banned from being used in playing a SGOTM game. Players should really face the unknown and not just pretend they are.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[AlanH]

If you insist on making test maps, you're on your own, just ensure that you know which is the real map and which is your imitation one.

Equally, we can't ban them. Wed have to ban all other aids to forecasting the effects of action sequences - spreadsheets, pencil and paper, mental arithmetic .... It's not going to happen.

 

[LowtherCastle]

past winners of SGOTM, please speak up and tell me you did NOT use test games.

Your wish is my command:

Murky Waters, SGOTM6, no test games, GOld medal

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

If you insist on making test maps, you're on your own, just ensure that you know which is the real map and which is your imitation one.

SGOTM is a competition where the Team with the best test game makers and adequate players win. (No offense to past winners who play within the rules of the games.) If that is what you really want, then please understand the skills you are really rewarding (map making = World Builder skills).

Providing an official test game start would level the playing field between Teams with poor map making skills and those with expert map making skills.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[AlanH]

As indicated above, test maps are not essential to success. How could the staff possibly provide a test map that either (a) was not deliberately misleading, or (b) gave you too much information about the real map?

 

[Mitchum]

SGOTM is a competition where the Team with the best test game makers and adequate players win.

I couldn't disagree more. I consider myself an adequate player (Emperor/Immortal). However, even with perfect knowledge of the map, studying replay files, and then replaying as much as I want using the real save (not a test save), I still find it very difficult to duplicate the incredible games of some of the top Deity players in the xOTM competitions, which were played without test games, without reloading, and without prior knowledge of the map. Maybe that's an indication of my lack of skill, but I'd be willing to bet that a lot of us would have trouble duplicating many of Duckweed's incredible games, Jesusin's nearly perfect cultural games or Lexad's fastest domination/conquest games (just to name 3 of the top players).

Does a good test game help in SGOTM? Of course it does. Does it have to be perfect? No. What the team does with the test map and how much testing they do is a bigger factor to success than the actual quality of the test game, I think. In addition, the players still have to know what to test and how to test and that comes from experience and skill, not a perfect test game.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

SGOTM is a competition where the Team with the best test game makers and adequate players win.

While I disagree with your assertion about the value of test games (AlanH already mentioned many other tools and aids that can be used just as or more effectively--and I will mention one additional one--our brains), and while I don't think that this thread is the place to have such an argument (feel free to Private Message me if you want to further debate this topic), I will say that you already have access to the test games that some other teams have made.

Go and check out the last page of some of the SGOTM 12 threads, which are now open to all players to view, and you'll have access to the same test games that other teams will have.

 

[AlanH]

and I will mention one additional one--our brains

My reference to "mental arithmetic" was intended to cover that

 

[Alamankarazieff]

I'm fairly new at this, but it seems that you insist along the lines of "everybody uses steroids in cycling, so why doesn't the organizing staff provides it at the beginning ?".

If the spirit of the competition is to play without test maps, shouldn't we simply all agree to do so ?

 

[Gumbolt]

I'm fairly new at this, but it seems that you insist along the lines of "everybody uses steroids in cycling, so why doesn't the organizing staff provides it at the beginning ?".

If the spirit of the competition is to play without test maps, shouldn't we simply all agree to do so ?

I don't think you can get away from test maps. Theres no way to know which teams have usedtest maps anyway.

Overall it is the teams that decided to make test maps. I don't think Alan is obliged to give us any more detail unless he so chooses. When the live game arrives you can look at game setting page anyway for the basics.

Mystery makes some things more fun!

 

[Fluroscent]

I don't see what the problem is. No-one is learning anything they couldn't learn by crunching numbers instead. It is easier and more fun to just play out the various opening moves and comparing statuses in a test game rather than doing math.

Optimizing the opening moves by testing them and even practising them is not something the SGOTM or any competition should discourage in any way. It is a natural part of the perfectionist way a lot of us like to play a game like Civ4 .

And if the usage of test games actually was a problem, then why did SGOTM12 have almost every team diverge in settling/builds after only a few turns? This clearly shows that test games do not in any way lower the standards of the competition.

 

[kossin]

Test maps work best early game when teams are looking to get the best starts possible for their meta-strategy.

The need to keep a test map updated after 200 turns are very slim... just approximate where you are and you should be able to partially update a test game to the required needs.

Agreeing on no test games is like agreeing on doing no math to check the numbers. Any team not comfortable with math will be able to check their decisions via test games.

Let teams decide what they prefer... micro-insane play, test-intensive play, casual play, fun play, etc.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Providing an official test game start would level the playing field between Teams with poor map making skills and those with expert map making skills.

As indicated above, test maps are not essential to success.

Murky Waters SGOTM-6 win with test maps is an excellent counter example and does prove that excellent players without test games can surpass other players with test games, but it seems to be sole exception to my conjecture and thus I find it not entirely convincing.

How could the staff possibly provide a test map that either (a) was not deliberately misleading, or (b) gave you too much information about the real map?

This question goes way beyond my virtually non-existent skills with World Builder and the BUFFY module. However, ...

A staff person with only public knowledge of the SGOTM announcement should be able to create a test game start that complies with both ...

(a) was not deliberately misleading, or

(b) gave you too much information about the real map?

... just as well and probably better than each team on its own could do. (The SGOTM Teams would have to understand that the official test game start simply saves them the World Builder effort of making their own test game start and doesn't contain any useful information about the map in the real game.)

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[neilmeister]

This debate is silly.

To suggest that teams only won because of good test games is offensive to the winners.

The best teams win because:
- they identify good strategies
- can adapt them when new information arises
- can implement their strategies well

A team of 'adequate' players, as you call them, will never win, regardless of the test map. Mitchum said this better than I could.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

This debate is silly.

To suggest that teams only won because of good test games is offensive to the winners.

I welcome any SGOTM winner to tell me that my statements regarding test games are offensive. If they didn't use test games I can't image what they would be offended about. If they did use test games, they recognize test games for what they are, a tool to help a team win, nothing more and nothing less. (I support all teams use of test games, provided they are compliant with SGOTM rules. I made a similar statement with regard to winners in my initial post on this subject.)

The best teams win because:
- they identify good strategies
- can adapt them when new information arises
- can implement their strategies well

I wish we could add "Don't use test maps.", but sadly most do use them.

A team of 'adequate' players, as you call them, will never win, regardless of the test map. Mitchum said this better than I could.

That would be highly dependent on the quality of the test game and the World Builder skills of the player(s) that created it.

So far, only one SGOTM winner has come forward (out of 12 SGOTM competitions and three top places per competition) and said they did not use test games in achieving their victory.

It is clear that test games have a greater utility than anyone is willing to admit, otherwise more SGOTM winners would have come forward and stated that they didn't use test games.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Fluroscent]

Test Game Building, the Most Important Skill in Winning SGOTM

You will not find much support for this statement. Usage does not equate mileage.

Test game building skill? I think anyone, at least someone in every team can figure out how to build a matching starting location. And really, testing opening moves is the only thing where test games are really helpful in aiding teams to make better decisions. And even then, the same results could be had by crunching numbers instead. Why not use a fun and readily available tool instead?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

past winners of SGOTM, please speak up and tell me you did NOT use test games.

Your wish is my command:

Murky Waters, SGOTM6, no test games, GOld medal

I was curious about whether there was some characteristic of the SGOTM6 game that made test games less important to use, so I looked a few SGOTM6 threads, including Murky Waters. Personally, I'd definitely use a test game with the "Always War" option, except its not Deity level; its Prince level. A Warlords Prince level Always War game doesn't sound particularly challenging.

I was disappointed and confused by this post written by LowtherCastle in Murky Waters SGOTM6 thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6349380&postcount=803

The post details the results of what appears to be a test game for making a decision in the real SGOTM6 winning game by Murky Waters. Now it does appear that the test game use was brief and limited to some short of micromanagement. I can only assume that LowtherCastle forgot about this particular test game when he made his claim of "no test games".

We appear to be down to 0 SGOTM winners using no test games in making their game decisions. Does any other SGOTM winner (top three places) claim to have not used test games?

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[unclethrill]

... just as well and probably better than each team on its own could do. (The SGOTM Teams would have to understand that the official test game start simply saves them the World Builder effort of making their own test game start and doesn't contain any useful information about the map in the real game.)

If you look in several of the SGOTM 12 threads, you will find a couple of those independently made WB test games. Feel free to use the one in our thread (fifth element). I borrowed it from another team who borrowed it from another team too. It seems like this is what you wanted; an independently made test game that everyone can use if they want.

I think this should effectively end this discussion, right?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

... just as well and probably better than each team on its own could do. (The SGOTM Teams would have to understand that the official test game start simply saves them the World Builder effort of making their own test game start and doesn't contain any useful information about the map in the real game.)

If you look in several of the SGOTM 12 threads, you will find a couple of those independently made WB test games. Feel free to use the one in our thread (fifth element). I borrowed it from another team who borrowed it from another team too. It seems like this is what you wanted; an independently made test game that everyone can use if they want.

I think this should effectively end this discussion, right?

No, be careful about what you are suggesting. I would consider it to be against the SGOTM rules to pass any game related information between teams, including test games. I know that you meant only test games that are a faithful replication of the visible portion of the start at turn 0 with all units unmoved. However, consider that a team thinks they passed you their turn 0 test game, but they actually passed you a later version of their test game that shows a play progression they were working on.

No, even if it passes muster with the SGOTM rules, I would not be a party to what you suggested above.

Sun Tzu Wu