Sgotm18

[kcd_swede]

I've been assigned the map-maker role for SGOTM 18 which I am aiming to have sign-ups open in mid-July.

If you got any ideas that you think would be fun, you can certainly post them here, and I will ignore them or steal them as I see fit.

What I'd like to know, though is whether you guys think you'd be ready for a Deity level game. Think of a map that is about as challenging as SGOTM17... are you up for it? Is there anything I should definitely avoid if I make you a Deity level game?

 

[nocho]

First of all, hurray for planning installment #18!

As to Deity or not, I'd say that for now it would be too much of a leap. We just had the first SGOTM ever (that I'm aware of) on immortal and without trying to be spoilerish with teams still busy, I'd say that it was surprisingly doable, even with the cooked map. Or possibly in part thanks to that cooked map. Well, that probably means that a lot will depend on the map.

But still, I'd rather see another go at immortal after 16 (?) emperor games before taking it to yet another level. I'm sure immortal obviously is a step up for everybody from emperor, but I think deity will scare away people, especially in the mid and lower range of teams, those that typically don't expect to gain a medal before even starting. Well, it might scare me away at least. Which could be an objective by itself.

 

[UnforcedError]

Happy to see you already planning SGOTM 18

I firmly believe that with good teamwork any group of players can perform way above their average level. However, I'd second nocho here, I'd be afraid that a Deity level SGOTM might scare away players which should definitely not be a goal Reading through other team threads after the game is part of the fun. Let's have as many teams as we possibly can I'd say Immortal with some extra twists should be fine.

 

[kossin]

Deity is touchy on a several-months map, so many things can go wrong with RNG (ex. Dagger before turn 30 by any AI, like Hatty for example).

Some avenues that could be explored...

• Advanced Start
• Free tech of choice (ex. teams can choose between Biology, Communism, Rifling, ...)
• Limit warring, or always-war with a non-war victory condition
• No AP victory
• Emperor but AIs are 1 era ahead at start (or ~30 turns of development)
• Auto-loss if a certain tech is obtained (ex. Bronze Working)
• If you really want Deity, take a look at this scenario or its inspiration.
• Custom leader (Ind/Phi? )
• Custom BUFFY mod (see SGOTM12... maybe something with forests?)
• Merge latest BULL+BUG into BUFFY
• No workers, but improvements already exist
• No jungle near start location. A bad spread = ruined game. See pigs in this game.
• No metals, no horses map and no resourceless units civs (Monty, SB...)

In my opinion, a fine balance is needed so that RNG doesn't reward or punish teams; an example is those stupid resources that pop from mines on hills. As I recall, it's not possible to be edited out, but it can be managed by having no hills, already having resources on those hills (ex. aluminium), making a rule against mining hills, etc. Same with forests but their effect is usually smaller.

 

[Gumbolt]

There have been previous deity SGOTM if you look far back. In those days we had 15+ teams with a lot more advanced players. I think RNG and bad luck need to be sorted.

If you really want to spice the games up you can use an immortal start and give certain Ai extra units/techs. Bit like the AP game where English had an extra settler. We all enjoyed watching teams trying to beat down the English.

Maybe start using some not well known AI. For one Toku and English appear in most games. Toku perhaps because he is least likely to trade of all the AI.

Edit: I wonder when Kossin will offer to make a map.

 

[bestsss]

to address kossin's point.
an example is those stupid resources that pop from mines on hills. As I recall, it's not possible to be edited out,
It takes 2 characters to remove the pop up ( 0& in the "if" clause for the curious) Either way the change it's truly trivial (but it'd require custom mod). OTOH mines inherent property is popping resources according to their tool tip - I suppose it's a "balance" issue.

imo, throw in an always war option w/o choke points is a rather bleak but very welcome as there is no diplomacy to manage. (just make sure there is a jumbo/slonik in the near vicinity).
Deity is way too much to step up. A BC war could shape the outcome like nothing else. While recovering is possible, it's rarely a competitive reasonable option (i.e. actually getting land), also usually it has ill effects on the team spirit.

 

[kossin]

Edit: I wonder when Kossin will offer to make a map.

A few issues stand in that path. For one, it means I couldn't play SGOTM .

I believe there are quite enough capable hands at work already in any case

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Deity level difficulty would be a welcome change. It could be made significantly easier by providing great starting land, a second settler or even the same units the AI starts with. Other options include a later era start, like mediaevil for example. With these later era starts, the usual plan is to spam military units that can be built with the starting technologies and take over a few nearby civilizations. Modern Era Deity would be easy (Spam Tanks) and Future Era Deity would be trivial (Nuke 'em All).

I really liked SGOTM-17's Classical Era start and the removal of religious technologies so they can be founded as in an ancient era start. A similar Mediaevil Era Deity start would be great; it would allow an immediate Horse Archer or Swordsmen rush, if I'm not mistaken.

Thus, I hope we would explore ways to have a Deity SGOTM-18 without allowing it to become too intimidating to those players used to Emporer difficulty level or below. I really think that a Deity Mediaevil Era start would be a lot of fun for all teams; just stack the deck well enough, so that no team is ever at risk of losing or retiring the game (due to no hope of winning the game).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[ChrisShaffer]

I would like to see a game with no conquest or domination victory conditions. The builder in my heart is losing interest in games that are all about fast military, and I'm unlikely to play such a game.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

A victory condition other that Conquest and Domination would be great. Such victories require different a very different skill set and mind set. I believe the vast majority of players would prefer aviod Conquest and Domination for SGOTM-18, especially after a rather exhausting SGOTM-17 Conquest Victory.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Doshin]

It is also important to bear in mind that SGOTM17, although much more difficult than a standard map, was in many ways played on "Immortal Light." The delayed era start, heavy preponderance of Jungle tiles, and isolated state of the map's two best techers all served to weaken the AI.

A "no" to Deity SGOTM 18 from me, although I would still undoubtedly play. To add to ChrisShaffer's remarks: I personally have no problem with warring, but (for the sake of variety) I'd very much like a stronger emphasis on building, teching, spreading a religion/corp, winning peacefully, fulfilling an artificial mapmaker condition... whatever, just to keep things fresh next time around. kossin's list is full of good suggestions. Is there a way to make an espionage game possible and (more importantly) fun? IDK. Just spitballin' here.

I tremendously enjoyed the previous map, so please accept my heartfelt thanks kcd. I had one major gripe, which I will spoiler (it contains no new information to influence the still active games, but links to some of the finished games).

Spoiler :

The Ocean tile next to the Silver mountain on our continent was a poor edit, IMO, since this broke a basic law of the Civ IV universe that any non-lake water adjacent to land, if it is not an Ice Cap, is a Coast tile and therefore navigable pre-Astronomy.

The edit punished attempts to explore the southern edge of the map via a Work Boat or Galley. I argued for this here, and I know that shulec voiced similar thoughts to my own here. It was not game changing or even that damaging, but had the Mountain been changed to an Ice Cap, the impossibility of passage would have been clear from the start.

Basically, the laws of the game's physics should be bent, but never broken where to do so would punish otherwise reasonable and intelligent play.

 

[neilmeister]

No to Deity from me, too random and too hard.

I personally want to go back to ancient start (and not just because I sucked at Classical). Later starts nerf the AI (as Doshin said, it was 'Immortal Light').

The current game (conquest only) was a good idea coming after the previous game where FT1 & 2 Legendary cities were required, great variety. Variety is all I ask for.

I have no issue with the mapmaker doing crazy things to the map, it makes for a better game. Anytime we are forced to rethink is great. It's what SGOTM is (or should be) about.

 

[bcool]

I too favor immortal with twists.

Perhaps Deity with always peace? Might take out the worst of the RNG problems with Deity. Would certainly be a different game and perhaps impossible challenge though depending on the map.

Deity with always peace and few free great artists? Or a map where we are not immediately robbed of all the available land.

 

[Seraiel]

Yes to Deity for me. Aggree on the argument that teams can solve difficult puzzles a lot better than single persons, and Deity would catch the eagerness of the players and the interest of the readers.

IMM would also be ok imo, but if I coiuld choose, I'd propose something like the Gauntlet 100, Conquest + Raging Barbs and a Huge map <3 .

 

[Fippy]

I like Ancient starts best too, i think these bring in most interesting discussions.

I play Deity only myself, but i don't think that would be great here..
maybe if you would balance and mix teams, instead we have deity players all together in mostly 2-3 teams while some others play for fun and some struggle getting enuf players.
There's no real base for Deity here.

I think the sgotm where future tech was required was best, way more interesting than watching who works faster towards Galleon chains and Trebs + X spamming.

Also another note, i think always peace and very special rules would be...really bad, planning wars should still be part of this game.

 

[soundjata]

Some avenues that could be explored...

• If you really want Deity, take a look at this scenario or its inspiration.

The idea of a barb nation is interesting.

How is the barb AI different from a "non barb" AI?
Are there any economic penalties apart from starting techs and lack of trait?

 

[Manco Capac]

Barb nation did happened in the past, right? An old SGOTM or some xOTM. I tend to think it was one the first SGOTM.

 

[kcd_swede]

Thanks for the input... keep it coming. Seems like so far there is more call for IMM than DEI, and to be honest I am not very confident in my abilities to avoid all the pitfalls of deity. As I am an IMM level player at best, I'm much more likely to catch problems in an IMM map (but as some of you found out, I am not infallible even at Noble).

Don't worry... I wouldn't set up 2 conquest games in a row. But its civ, so you can expect you'll need some military prowess.

BTW-soundjata will be my co-designer on SGOTM18... so some fresh ideas, extra quality control, and someone else to blame when things go wrong. Not to mention a blow to Plastic Ducks who will have to struggle without soundjata.

Keep input coming... DEI/IMM question not completely decided yet, and you may be suprised how many of the twists are fitting well with our nascent plans... (PS-be careful what you wish for!)

 

[Jastrow]

I would also vote against Diety, not because I think the teams cant beat it (I suspect most teams would still win any fair deity map), but simply because it brings in too much randomness.

I personally would favor a builder game....

 

[BLubmuz]

I do not like deity, period. Even in my solo games with some mod i avoid it. It's just unbalanced.

About SGotM, we has a Vanilla Deity OCC with Permanent Alliances enabled ages ago (SG 7). Aside that always Monarch, later (about SG 10 or 11) moved to Emperor until the last one.
We even has a Prince, but it was a Warlords AW game.
A barb nation is not possible, but there was SG 5 where the human was teamed with barbs. That one required a small mod, made by Gyathaar.

About advanced starts, any non modern or future start penalises the human, IMO. And they are not fun unless the mapmaker does think to some variant.

To my taste - as i already said - the most interesting games were 09, 12 and 16.
Some good scenario on SG 14, 15 and 17 but ruined by chances to exploit some weakness in the map or in the set up.

A game which suites my taste should have:
- enough war to make it spicy
- reach the modern/future era to win (because you need certain units or because Space is the fixed VC)
- probably a fixed VC

What about a Space AW with no tech trading enabled and domination disabled? A great start is in order and some choke point placed in the map too.
Maybe a prebuilt Wonder in the Capital (CR?).