SGOTM3 Rome - Team Bugsy
- Thread starter mad-bax
- Start date
RowAndLive
RAMMING SPEED!
grahamiam said:no way to go but forward. we'll need to capture the GLib city ASAP, that's all. the good news is that it's on our landmass and we can get it. keep building Legions and cities and press on.
Yeah, but unless we can depopulate it the same turn, we'll have to level teh place, so it doesn't help us directly, it just slows down the AI. Hey, maybe we could give them enough workers that it forces them to add them to their cities. Then we hug the cities so that the pop starves, and when we take it, hope that it's one of our guys left.... Naaah!
Question - You mentiona German settler in the IBT pre-Turn 1. Grahamiam had Germany declaring on us in his pre-turn 10 IBT. Did you kill the German settler, or was that a typo for French?
Also, does the earlier than planned war with Germany leave us at the same date for whoever is next, or does it accelerate it? At least killing off Greece won't force us into an earlier war.
Thanks for the stack commands!
alerum68
Priest of Hiroshima
Actually that may worker! If we pop rush and keep at least 1 of our citizens as a taxman or entertainer then when we get down the city will be ours. To do that we'll have to make it so they only have 1 or 2 citizens, and they can't be resisting, and 3 workers. Whatta think? Would someone be willing to run a test on it to see if it's possible to remove all the foreign pop before we leave the captured city screen?
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
RowAndLive said:
Glad you pointed that out R&L. I missed it completely. I have updated the second post in the thread.
I'm not sure if that changes our next declaration date. I am getting
concerning keeping that stuff straight.Edit - Alerum - How's this going? We probably need to start moving the game forward.
grahamiam
In debt to Mr. Geisel
right, forgot about the xenophobic part of this gameRowAndLive said:
RowAndLive
RAMMING SPEED!
@Alerum - I really don't see how it could work. There must be something in the code to make it so that starvation is not random, and that they always keep one of their own. Also, how would you force them to add the workers to the city that you want, and not just use them for labor? IIRC, the rules state that if there is even 1 foreign citizen, then we must raze the city. Or maybe it was that we had to raze any city that wasn't one that we founded, lost and recaptured... I'll have to look.
I'm assuming that you did disband the captured workers, as required by the variant. Please don't answer here, just make sure that you did it.
I'm assuming that you did disband the captured workers, as required by the variant. Please don't answer here, just make sure that you did it.
grahamiam
In debt to Mr. Geisel
i agree. we need to get this moving again. at this rate, we won't be done till OctoberSir Bugsy said:
alerum68
Priest of Hiroshima
Get moving again? Today is my 72 hour limit. Fellas, I want you to understand I'm working 50+ hour weeks, and if I'm not moving fast enough for you at the rate I am, then go ahead and skip me and find someone else.
I've been dropping all citizens but our natural workers by doing that. I think there was 1 time where it didn't work, but only one time. The question is I guess, do we have to raze instead of capturing it, or can we take it, and as long as there are no foreign citizens inside, we can keep it? How can we check if we autoraze?
I've been dropping all citizens but our natural workers by doing that. I think there was 1 time where it didn't work, but only one time. The question is I guess, do we have to raze instead of capturing it, or can we take it, and as long as there are no foreign citizens inside, we can keep it? How can we check if we autoraze?
alerum68
Priest of Hiroshima
Turn 7(610BC)
Move workers into capitol to upgrade when we get the gold. Move legionary onto hill, hoping to make a trap for the hoplite who's posted on the mountain.
Loose a legionary taking out a spear/settler combo. Finish him after. Disband workers on the spot.
Switch GL to Palace. It builds in 6 turns. Can slow it down only 1 turn by MMing... either that or we can starve it down, but I want growth.
IBT
cool. Hoplite did move onto flat ground with a road so we can attack and regroup. French spear appears in view, and 2 greek archers come from the east.
Veii grew but didn't produce settler?!
Turn 8 (590BC)
our legionary takes out the hoplit with only 1 dam
other legionary moves to intercept archers.
Upgrade warrior. Move 2 warrior south to intercept archers as well.
fort spear in Pisae. All cities are now guarded.
Veii didn't grow because of corruption. Looks like a 5 turn factory unless someone knows a trick to MM so we don't get corruption? Anything to get this back on track?
stack moves outside to Pharsalos. SHould remove them next turn.
IBT
Veii Settler - > Worker in 2, growth in 2. No loss. Is a 6 turn factory if we move from working game to regular BG.
Lot of units approaching us from all sides.
Turn 9 (570BC)
Move settler to Rome.
Fort legionary on Wines.
Fort Legionary on Iron.
Odds aren't great for our Legionary vs the archer, because we're crossing the river and he's elite. The other option is to sacrifice the warrior and let the legionary take him down. That seems the best bet. Was a tough call. Almost just move everyone into Popeii.
We loose warrior, but take him down to 3 hps.
Kill regular archer.
Wish we didn't have all these mountains around us.
Make a small line of Legionary to block spears coming from the north.
*** Battle of Pharsalos ***
Elite Legionary vs reg Hoplite - we win, 2 dam
vet legionary vs reg hoplite - Ouch. Redline hopltie, but loose.
ELite archer vs 1hp hoplite. We win, take 2 dam, but no leader.
vet legionary vs reg archer - We win, no dam.
Destroy Pharsalos.
Damn it! The battle against the hoplite near Pompeii produced a leader for them.
Wake vet warrior and attack the 2hp archer. is a GIANT gamble, but I want the leader gone.
We win, go elite, and destroy the leader. Warrior will probably fall next turn, but we have another being produced in Pompeii and no way for it to be attacked without Tanks appearing from the fog.
IBT
Germans come calling. Tell them to go away.
Our warrior falls to the archer.
Cumae and Pompeii both build warriors. Fort the one in Pompeii, send the other to Rome.
Turn 10 (550BC)
Vet legionary vs 2hp vet archer near Pompeii
Move legionary back north to protect our wines.
Move another legionary on mountain top to the east to watch archers coming from Greece.
Skip settler, leaving him active.
vet legionary takes out reg french spear, taking 2 dam
Found Ravena s of Pompeii, again RCP-7. Set production to Barracks
left 2 legions in the mountains to the northeast active... not sure what to do with them.
fort Legion in Ravenna until I can get a warrior down there.
End:
We should sign an MA with Babylon againat as many people as we can. Have another 30 turns before we have to declare on them.
Gotta figure out a way to fix the settler factory in Veii. Build a courthouse maybe? Will stop growth. We can also switch it over to build workers. Was hoping for 2 full rings, but not sure if we need it, and we have a nice kill zone just outside of our current borders.
If we do build workers, (which we badly need, and I already started... we only have 1 right now!) we should connect Pompeii up to the trade network. It's going to get alot of attacks from the east. Cumae we can keep as it is since it's not going to see an attack until things are grim.
Need to figure out what to do with the Palace in Antium. We have nothing to trade to a tech, and unless we want to starve Antium down the palace will move there in 3 turns.
We're running out of locations to build cities on. We may want to send settler to take the hill location that's 3 sw of Cumae. Is highly defendable, nice coastal location, and RCP-7.
Move workers into capitol to upgrade when we get the gold. Move legionary onto hill, hoping to make a trap for the hoplite who's posted on the mountain.
Loose a legionary taking out a spear/settler combo. Finish him after. Disband workers on the spot.
Switch GL to Palace. It builds in 6 turns. Can slow it down only 1 turn by MMing... either that or we can starve it down, but I want growth.
IBT
cool. Hoplite did move onto flat ground with a road so we can attack and regroup. French spear appears in view, and 2 greek archers come from the east.
Veii grew but didn't produce settler?!
Turn 8 (590BC)
our legionary takes out the hoplit with only 1 dam
other legionary moves to intercept archers.
Upgrade warrior. Move 2 warrior south to intercept archers as well.
fort spear in Pisae. All cities are now guarded.
Veii didn't grow because of corruption. Looks like a 5 turn factory unless someone knows a trick to MM so we don't get corruption? Anything to get this back on track?
stack moves outside to Pharsalos. SHould remove them next turn.
IBT
Veii Settler - > Worker in 2, growth in 2. No loss. Is a 6 turn factory if we move from working game to regular BG.
Lot of units approaching us from all sides.
Turn 9 (570BC)
Move settler to Rome.
Fort legionary on Wines.
Fort Legionary on Iron.
Odds aren't great for our Legionary vs the archer, because we're crossing the river and he's elite. The other option is to sacrifice the warrior and let the legionary take him down. That seems the best bet. Was a tough call. Almost just move everyone into Popeii.
We loose warrior, but take him down to 3 hps.
Kill regular archer.
Wish we didn't have all these mountains around us.
Make a small line of Legionary to block spears coming from the north.
*** Battle of Pharsalos ***
Elite Legionary vs reg Hoplite - we win, 2 dam
vet legionary vs reg hoplite - Ouch. Redline hopltie, but loose.
ELite archer vs 1hp hoplite. We win, take 2 dam, but no leader.
vet legionary vs reg archer - We win, no dam.
Destroy Pharsalos.
Damn it! The battle against the hoplite near Pompeii produced a leader for them.
Wake vet warrior and attack the 2hp archer. is a GIANT gamble, but I want the leader gone.
We win, go elite, and destroy the leader. Warrior will probably fall next turn, but we have another being produced in Pompeii and no way for it to be attacked without Tanks appearing from the fog.
IBT
Germans come calling. Tell them to go away.
Our warrior falls to the archer.
Cumae and Pompeii both build warriors. Fort the one in Pompeii, send the other to Rome.
Turn 10 (550BC)
Vet legionary vs 2hp vet archer near Pompeii
Move legionary back north to protect our wines.
Move another legionary on mountain top to the east to watch archers coming from Greece.
Skip settler, leaving him active.
vet legionary takes out reg french spear, taking 2 dam
Found Ravena s of Pompeii, again RCP-7. Set production to Barracks
left 2 legions in the mountains to the northeast active... not sure what to do with them.
fort Legion in Ravenna until I can get a warrior down there.
End:
We should sign an MA with Babylon againat as many people as we can. Have another 30 turns before we have to declare on them.
Gotta figure out a way to fix the settler factory in Veii. Build a courthouse maybe? Will stop growth. We can also switch it over to build workers. Was hoping for 2 full rings, but not sure if we need it, and we have a nice kill zone just outside of our current borders.
If we do build workers, (which we badly need, and I already started... we only have 1 right now!) we should connect Pompeii up to the trade network. It's going to get alot of attacks from the east. Cumae we can keep as it is since it's not going to see an attack until things are grim.
Need to figure out what to do with the Palace in Antium. We have nothing to trade to a tech, and unless we want to starve Antium down the palace will move there in 3 turns.
We're running out of locations to build cities on. We may want to send settler to take the hill location that's 3 sw of Cumae. Is highly defendable, nice coastal location, and RCP-7.
RowAndLive
RAMMING SPEED!
alerum68 said:
Alerum, you were doing fine. I think they either got the wrong SG, or they were counting posts, not time. After all, I'M the slow player on this team....
As far as the 50+, well, I'm close, but usually 48-50. I think the others are too.
alerum68 said:
You just lost me, so I went back and checked the rules:
Quoth M-B:
"The Xenophobic part of the variant runs as follows.
7. You may never own a foreign worker. You must never buy one, and if you capture them they must be disbanded on the tile on which they were captured.
...
10. You will never retain a town that contains foreign citizens. Such towns must be razed and any workers spawned disbanded."
So, no keeping a foreign worker. By my earlier post, I just wanted to be sure, since I wasn't getting the meaning out of your words. Obviously you're on track, and it was my comprehension that was at issue.
Per #10, if we capture a town, and all of the citizens are our nationality, then we can keep it. The only two ways for this to happen would be if we recaptured one of ours shortly after losing it, or if we somehow got the AI to add in some of our workers to the desired target city and then starved it down. Again, I'm guessing that something in the game code would force the last remaining citizen to be of the owner's nationality, provided that he already was there. The only way to find out is to try, but off line. I'll see what I can do. I must admit, having to raze a city containing 9 of our citizens, and 1 foreigner would bug me, and would likely not make the rest of our populous to pleased. We'll just have to be sure to take back any captured cities quickly. M-B would probably justify it under our Xenophobia making us view them as traitors.
An autoraze is an autoraze - we can't do anything about it.
A thought - if a city flips to join us (not that I expect this), be sure to accept the flip, and then raze / abandon the city on our turn, instead of rejecting the flip. I couldn't find anything in the previous discussions that would forbid this.
Incidentally, I was reminded of M-B's clue about the barbs by going to review the rules. AFAIK, we haven't seen any. So, what is the insight that we'll be gaining into SGOTM4? Looking for speculation here.
I'm going to go WAY out on a limb, and guess that all of the barbs are off the coast on 1-tile islands, which we'll need amphibs to take out. THAT will be our insight as to the next game - an archipelago! And the need to use amphibs.
RowAndLive
RAMMING SPEED!
alerum68 said:
During my last turns, I looked at the civilopedia for terrain, and it stated that the defensive bonus for a river was +0%. Is that correct? Or is it modified for this scenario? Then again, there were no mods. Can this be changed in the save file via the editor?
VERY NICE decision and job taking out the leader!
Definitely something to be done at any cost.
Did they open an embassy with us? If so, great!
G-man can tell us. I don't know who's up next, but G can take a look at the save and tell us. I'm still learning the exact steps for this.
If we can pull a tech on the next turn, then it may be best to cut our losses, and switch it to an improvement now, saving 2 more turns of shields. Opinions?
denyd
Emperor
Nice turn set Alerun69
I agree that without looking at a city, you can't be 100% sure what the population make up is, so it does make sense to accept the city, review the population and if any foreigners are in the city, you then abandon the city before proceeding.
From what I can see with Greece has 4 cities left. We should make it a priority to eliminate them. Then we only have to concentrate on targets to the north. When we start that direction, we'll be attacking fringe AI cities and should have success. It's the cores that are going to be a problem. We should keep pumping settlers from Veii to fill in all the old Greek lands. There is quite a bit of dirt to the south, southeast and east to fill. It's not that great of terrain, but every city provides us with additional support once we get to monarchy. Keep pumping Legionaires from Rome and Warriors from Cumae, we'll need the troops for the French campaign. I agree that we should pay whatever it costs to get allies at this time. The more targets the AI has to shoot at the better. It will also slow down the tech pace. I don't relish the idea of Legions vs Pikes (or Muskets).
I agree that without looking at a city, you can't be 100% sure what the population make up is, so it does make sense to accept the city, review the population and if any foreigners are in the city, you then abandon the city before proceeding.
From what I can see with Greece has 4 cities left. We should make it a priority to eliminate them. Then we only have to concentrate on targets to the north. When we start that direction, we'll be attacking fringe AI cities and should have success. It's the cores that are going to be a problem. We should keep pumping settlers from Veii to fill in all the old Greek lands. There is quite a bit of dirt to the south, southeast and east to fill. It's not that great of terrain, but every city provides us with additional support once we get to monarchy. Keep pumping Legionaires from Rome and Warriors from Cumae, we'll need the troops for the French campaign. I agree that we should pay whatever it costs to get allies at this time. The more targets the AI has to shoot at the better. It will also slow down the tech pace. I don't relish the idea of Legions vs Pikes (or Muskets).
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
alerum68 said:
Easy now. Don't be so quick to think a finger is being pointed at you. It was a general comment at the team in general. Up until you posted your turns, we had completed exactly one complete set of turns since July 21th. It is meant as a gentle prod to all of us.
Denyd
G-Man
Alerum - Just Played
Bede - Up
R&L - On deck
Bugs
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
OK, Here is the Civs Met list
Civs Met:
1) Greeks - 2750 BC - war in 2750 BC
2) England - 2270 BC - war in 1950 BC
3) France - 2230 BC - war in 1375 BC
4) Russia - 2150 BC - declared war on us in 1050 BC (normally would have declared in 875 BC)
5) America - 2110 BC - declare in 450 BC
6) Babylon - 1550 BC - declare in 50 BC
7) Germany 1500 BC - declared on us via MA in 775BC
8) ?????? - ????? - declare in 500 AD
So the question is: Does Germany take America's place in 450 BC, or do we have to declare on Abe?
I don't think the capture a city and starve down idea will work. The code will keep a native in the city above all else. Bottom Line - we need to raze Paris as soon as possible.
Civs Met:
1) Greeks - 2750 BC - war in 2750 BC
2) England - 2270 BC - war in 1950 BC
3) France - 2230 BC - war in 1375 BC
4) Russia - 2150 BC - declared war on us in 1050 BC (normally would have declared in 875 BC)
5) America - 2110 BC - declare in 450 BC
6) Babylon - 1550 BC - declare in 50 BC
7) Germany 1500 BC - declared on us via MA in 775BC
8) ?????? - ????? - declare in 500 AD
So the question is: Does Germany take America's place in 450 BC, or do we have to declare on Abe?
I don't think the capture a city and starve down idea will work. The code will keep a native in the city above all else. Bottom Line - we need to raze Paris as soon as possible.
denyd
Emperor
I'd like to get rid of Greece first. Not having to defend/attack on two fronts would make things 'easier'.
As for the pace of the game, we're ahead of the Staff Team
Got and will play tomorrow after 2:00PM EDT.
I concur that Greece is our #1 priority.
Have not looked at the save or reviewed the posts in detail but in general here's what I am thinking:
1) Take whatever steps are necessary to get the Veii on a settler/worker cycle at six turns.
2) What would be the impact if the place moved to Antium? I'm guessing it would negatively affect the RCP. If that's the case then I guess just bite the bullet on the shield loss and build something cultural, the not so great library maybe.
3) Defend to the north.
4) Move with all deliberate speed on France.
I concur that Greece is our #1 priority.
Have not looked at the save or reviewed the posts in detail but in general here's what I am thinking:
1) Take whatever steps are necessary to get the Veii on a settler/worker cycle at six turns.
2) What would be the impact if the place moved to Antium? I'm guessing it would negatively affect the RCP. If that's the case then I guess just bite the bullet on the shield loss and build something cultural, the not so great library maybe.
3) Defend to the north.
4) Move with all deliberate speed on France.
grahamiam
In debt to Mr. Geisel
sorry, not meant directly at you alerum but in general for reasons bugs had stated previously. there is a "guillotine" for these games as opposed to a regular sg that can last forever (ie, SUL5balerum68 said:
).@R&L ->in regards to the settler factory @ Veii... sorry, i have to go out of town for a couple of days and have lots to do tonight so i won't have time. however, bede is an excellent MM'er and i'm sure he'll figure it out.
@bede-> please layout the settler/worker factory @ Veii so all can use it effeciently
I believe we probably need a mine or 2. probably should set the govenor to emphasize production as well just to make sure we work a forrest during growth.general comment: we should let Rome get big. It can be a shield powerhouse. We should try to get it up to 10spt asap so we can make legeons every 3T. if we're already @ 10spt, then try to get it to 15spt which should be possible, even in despotism. imho, let Veii and the new city to the east of Rome worry about workers and settlers.
alerum68
Priest of Hiroshima
Sorry when I see my name involved, then I usually think it's directect at me.... anyway, moving onward.
1) Foreign Citizens: R&L: The process I'm talking about is using the natural population to rush improvments. We have 4 English citizen in our newly captured town, and we're able to throw a couple of workers into that city to make it 6 total... 4 english, 2 roman. What we do is use those 4 english to rush a temple or barracks. If we set our roman citizens to entertainers or taxman they will remain while the citizens working the tile will be killed off in the construction of that barracks. That will leave it free of all but Roman citizens, which means we can keep it, according to the rules our the varient. We'll need to have 2 workers ready to be joined ASAP, and we'll need to keep a road intact to ensure we can join them in on the same turn that we capture. Bugsy@ I know that it seems like it will keep a native worker, but I was doing that in RaceWars and you'll notice all the cities I did it with are naturual population after.
2) Veii - I'm confident Bede will be able to do something... we're probably looking at a 6 turn factory without a courthouse though. It's set it on my watch to emp. production, and it went to the forest like planned, just lost the shield to corruption. It was only a true factory during our Golden Age.
3) Abe: Russia saved us, but we still have to declare in 450AD. Otherwise I would have had to declare war.
4) Bede: I tried the worker/settler idea. The best I could get out of it was 8 turns. I just can't get those last 2 shields due to corruption. Moving the Palace to Antium would be horrible! We need to switch that to a lib or something else expensive. No trading that I saw. The north is where I'm seeing the most units. There are only a trickle of archers coming from greece and like Denyd said I think they're down to 3 or 4 cities. It even seems that taking Greek land will "complete" our empire. We'll have a 1 side front which is idea in AW, and we'll have all those mountains to slow down knights/cav in the later game.
5) Allies: Does the rules state we can't build an embassy or are we just assuming that we can't?
6) Rome: It's growing as fast as possible. There isn't much food around it so it takes a while, but I think it'll need some hills mined to get that 15 spt.
Even though we're in a world of hurt I still have a good feeling about this game.
Oh yeah West Nile Virus has come to my town.... joy! Anyone got some Off?
1) Foreign Citizens: R&L: The process I'm talking about is using the natural population to rush improvments. We have 4 English citizen in our newly captured town, and we're able to throw a couple of workers into that city to make it 6 total... 4 english, 2 roman. What we do is use those 4 english to rush a temple or barracks. If we set our roman citizens to entertainers or taxman they will remain while the citizens working the tile will be killed off in the construction of that barracks. That will leave it free of all but Roman citizens, which means we can keep it, according to the rules our the varient. We'll need to have 2 workers ready to be joined ASAP, and we'll need to keep a road intact to ensure we can join them in on the same turn that we capture. Bugsy@ I know that it seems like it will keep a native worker, but I was doing that in RaceWars and you'll notice all the cities I did it with are naturual population after.
2) Veii - I'm confident Bede will be able to do something... we're probably looking at a 6 turn factory without a courthouse though. It's set it on my watch to emp. production, and it went to the forest like planned, just lost the shield to corruption. It was only a true factory during our Golden Age.
3) Abe: Russia saved us, but we still have to declare in 450AD. Otherwise I would have had to declare war.
4) Bede: I tried the worker/settler idea. The best I could get out of it was 8 turns. I just can't get those last 2 shields due to corruption. Moving the Palace to Antium would be horrible! We need to switch that to a lib or something else expensive. No trading that I saw.
The north is where I'm seeing the most units. There are only a trickle of archers coming from greece and like Denyd said I think they're down to 3 or 4 cities. It even seems that taking Greek land will "complete" our empire. We'll have a 1 side front which is idea in AW, and we'll have all those mountains to slow down knights/cav in the later game.5) Allies: Does the rules state we can't build an embassy or are we just assuming that we can't?
6) Rome: It's growing as fast as possible. There isn't much food around it so it takes a while, but I think it'll need some hills mined to get that 15 spt.
Even though we're in a world of hurt I still have a good feeling about this game.
Oh yeah West Nile Virus has come to my town.... joy! Anyone got some Off?
denyd
Emperor
Alerun69: OT: After living in Palo Alto/Cupertino/Campbell/Santa Clara for 30 years, by family moved to the LA area last year. What part of the Bay Area are you in?
I agree with the Veii=Settler & Rome=Legionary decision.
I actually thought about switching Antium to a library (losing 60 shields) when I played but was hoping for a miracle instead.
We're probably going to be facing defensive values of 3+ for the rest of the game (Greek Hoplites & everyone else Pikes), so mathematics (w/catapults)should be moving towards the top of the research list. I think the really hard part of this game is going to be battling to stay close on technology.
I agree with the Veii=Settler & Rome=Legionary decision.
I actually thought about switching Antium to a library (losing 60 shields) when I played but was hoping for a miracle instead.
We're probably going to be facing defensive values of 3+ for the rest of the game (Greek Hoplites & everyone else Pikes), so mathematics (w/catapults)should be moving towards the top of the research list. I think the really hard part of this game is going to be battling to stay close on technology.
RowAndLive
RAMMING SPEED!
@Alerum:
1 - No, we can not keep it. I was trying to think of a way to get the non-Roman pop starved out before we take the city, but I can't make it work. Rules are clear that any city containing non-Romans when we take it must be razed / abandoned. But it can be re-settled.
5 - Rules state that no embassies may be built by us. We are free to make use of those built by foreigners in our capital.
I concur that we need to declare in 450.
1 - No, we can not keep it. I was trying to think of a way to get the non-Roman pop starved out before we take the city, but I can't make it work. Rules are clear that any city containing non-Romans when we take it must be razed / abandoned. But it can be re-settled.
5 - Rules state that no embassies may be built by us. We are free to make use of those built by foreigners in our capital.
I concur that we need to declare in 450.
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