SGOTM3 Rome - Team Peanut

In my opinion we should be constantly building settlers with at least one city, even if it appears that there are no more city sites. Every time we send an assault force against the enemy we should have settlers (under close guard of course) following closely to claim the land the razed cities will leave. I'm not suggesting we put down a city everywhere we torch one... more like setting up a chain of cities as a supply line of sorts. And of course we should claim any and all resources we can.

Great set of turns by the way! Exciting stuff.
 
Here is the rest of my turn.

Turn 4: 1990 BC
Rome builds warrior and I start another. I would recommend we start a worker next to link up the iron before our war with Greece gets too hot. As it is it will be 4turns for the warrior, 3 for the worker and 7 to mine for a total of 14 turns! This being the case I believe Veii must bear the burden in the near term of being our armory. We have too few units to defend against both Greece and Russia in less than 20 turns. Thus Veii switches to warrior. At F4 I learn that France now has writing and there are two more nations on our little piece of the world: America and the Germans.

Turn 5: 1950 BC
From F4 I learn that Russia is still at only two cities. This makes me think that Cathy has got herself in another war. Another piece of evidence is that with 9 warrior we are strong compared to her. I think we picked the correct first war! France is still the only one with writing. It is now much safer to move Veii back to granary, but the shield hit on Rome in building a worker will really leave us without much military production in the short term. I will keep the warriors coming.

Turn 6: 1910 BC
Cumae founded! Starts spearman. We gain one more bonus game, horses, spices and or tiles in radius of our wonder pre-build city. Very good! Find our first Babylonian city in the far NW. F1 tells us that we are at +11 gold/turn. F4 tells us that Greece now has horses on line (great!). Alex still has nothing to trade. I wish he would hurry up before our 20 turns are used up. Cathy wants peace bad! In a normal game we would have gotten CB.

Turn 7 1870 BC
Veii completes warrior and starts spearman. If I figure it correctly because of growth we will not waste any shields in this build and have it in only 6 turns! The next player can switch it to archer or chariot as the worker starts roading the horses. I found more iron south of Greece. It will still be hard to get at, but we should keep an eye on it so that Greece does not get iron.

Turn 8 1830 BC
Rome completes Warrior and starts worker. Will move the new warrior to Veii and one of the Veii warriors NW to scout out any Russians that might be coming. F4 tells us that France must have sold contact with us for horseback riding. I would love to get this tech!


Turn 9: 1790 BC
Antium built spearman and starts worker. Opportunity knocks! A stack of two Greek workers on a hill south of Athens. I will move next to them next turn. Do we want to attack early?


Turn 10: 1750BC
We have horses! And all our towns are connected. Moved the worker back to the previously roaded BG and started mining. Alex must have read my mind and moved a warrior to protect his workers. We should have enough gold in 7 turns to upgrade 5 warriors!

Parting advice: Because there is a good chance we will be in a GA soon we want to have the following worker priorities.
1) Make sure every city has a shield and gold producing tile to grow into.
2) Improve tiles with the GA bonus and Despotism penalty in mind. As long as you do not violate #1 feel free to improve BG for the pre and post GA world. But if mining a BG causes a city to work a non-shielded tile don’t do it.

Here is the saved file: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Peanut_SG003_BC1750_01.SAV
 
Generals : checking in after a bit of an absence and lo ! It's my turn already.

Progress looks good - war with Russia is a good choice to start us off. Great write-ups CS and KL.

I have got the file now and will try to fit in my round in the next day or so. Depends how exhausted I am after being "on duty" at my son's preschool tomorrow.
 
Alright, I'm back in town from a weekend out with the family at a campsite. (I come back to a pretty good sized fire threatening the general area; it's about 3 miles from my house right now, and there's squadrons of water-dropping helicopters and airplanes flying formation over and around it.)

I've reviewed the save file. We're well on our way - good set of turns, Keith! And a great spot for Cumae, too.

We can support 16 units for free and we have 14 in the field now. I would recommend that Rome keeps building Warriors until it can finish a Settler (2 or 3 more Warriors then the Settler); building a Worker would put that off 10 more turns, and be another unit to have to support. Veii should switch from Spearman to Granary, get that built to spur future growth. Antium's Worker (once built,3 maybe 2 turns) can either help chop the 2nd Games Space with Worker1 (this chop goes to Veii; chopping the 1st Games Space will go to Rome), or move to the Iron hill near Rome to connect it. Cumae will eventually finish it's spearman (6 more turns), then be able to do 2 Workers, back to back (I think.) Following this path we will be paying 2 or 3 gpt for extra units, but finishing a Settler in Rome will put us in the black again; building a Worker in Rome puts us further away from a 5th city and gives us another 1 gpt unit cost.

I'd try to keep the Vet Warriors near Rome and Veii, for fast upgrades; use the Regular Warriors for Scouting (2 are out scouting, and 1 appears to be heading back), watching the Iron space between us and France, and general look-out duty. The spearmen should be positioned between us and Greece, on hills or mountains, to give lookout and to form defensive positions if Greece moves forces against us.

We have 6 Regular and 6 Vet Warriors now; I'd like to be up to 10 - 12 Vet Warriors before we connect Iron (more is even better!), and ideally have 400 - 480 Gold in the treasury. We have 117 at 12 gpt, so we're still about 20 turns away from this position; we will be declaring War on Greece in 7 turns I think it is, and they need about 10 turns to move on us with any sizeable force, so we just have to delay them a few turns, do a mass upgrade, slaughter their lead forces and turn the tide on them. We can connect earlier if we get the sufficient number of Warriors, or maybe plan to start connecting about the time we declare war.

Keith, did we actually make contact with Germany or America? I saw Bismark on the F4 Screen, but didn't see Abe. Could you provide us an updated civ contact status list, similar to what I posted at the end of my turn log.
 
Here's a screenshot with remaining distance 3 city sites. I recommend the one with the 5 in it for our next city; we need to control the Mountain spaces next to it with Spearmen and Warriors to form this city, however, since we will have just declared War on Greece. Let's get some units there first.

Peanut_sg3_bc1750Main.JPG


The pink circle is a non distance 3 city site that will position us towards France when the time comes.

One more thing: if our GA is going to be starting soon we should just build Roads on BGs; the extra Shield from Mining them will not be seen during the GA. I'd recommend not mining any more BG's until our GA is about to finish. The Worker is currently Mining a BG so I'd reassign it, maybe to start chopping Game Space #2.
 
As I said England must have traded contact with us to the Germans for horsebackriding. As of yet Germany is not in que for war.
 
So this is our civ contact status:

Russia, contact in 2270, at WAR
Greece, contact in 2270, must be at War by 1575 BC
France, contact in 2270, must be at War by 1075 BC
Babylon, contact in 2230, must be at War by 610 BC
England, contact in 2190, must be at War by 210 BC
 
Peanut: it's coming up on 72 hours since your post. Are you able to play?

(BTW, I'm on travel to Texas for a couple of days, so I'll check in periodically but have no access to the game.)
 
Generals – sorry about the delay, but I have finally had some time to tackle this. A combination of two active children, a busy weekend and semester 2 starting this week.

A risky set of moves here but I believe that population growth will be critical to our success. So we are building granaries in Rome and Veii in lieu of more troops, and setting them both up for fast growth. The calculated risk is that Russia is too far away to send troops yet, and Alex will need a few turns to organize himself to invade once we declare war in 1575BC.

If the risk turns bad, then at least we will be front runners for the Wooden Spoon this round.

Pre-turn : Change of plan. We need more Romans – and fast ! So – Rome and Veii switch to Granaries. Cumae switches to Barracks. The worker is rudely interrupted so he can sharpen his axe.

IBT : Wandering foreigners – ah, let them wander. Soon they will taste Roman steel, eh what ? No Russians coming to meet their doom as yet. The French start the Oracle – will it foretell their demise we wonder …

1725 BC : S warrior ventures in to spy out Greece’s terrain. Our warriors move to give warning of Russian troops.

IBT : Alexander objects to our “visit”. Ok, we will leave for now.

1700 BC : A French settler approaches from the north ! We might play some games with them. Oh, and S warrior “forgets” to leave – he might try to get closer to Alex’s horses.

IBT : Alex gets cranky. We are expelled.

1675 BC : Three warriors position for a dance with Joan’s settler party.

IBT : More wandering foreigners of little consequence. Joan’s settler tries to sidestep us.

1650 BC : We dance with Joan’s settler party. This is fun !

IBT : Nothing of note.

1625 BC : More French dancing. Good exercise for the troops.

IBT : The French try a little step to the right.

1600 BC : Cumae starts on veteran warriors in preparation for legion building. We step to the left.

IBT : The French reverse their earlier strategy with a step to the left now. Alex starts the Colossus – is there no end to the ego of these foreigners ?

1575 BC : N Warrior parks on a mountain near Ninevah to watch for Russians. We step to the right this time. Oh yes – Alex’s time has come. He has denied us a fair price for Writing for too long now. he must pay the price – his extermination. We are at war. S Warrior moves along the mountain range to attempt some pillaging.

IBT : Nothing much – more futile French moves. Still no Russians.

1550 BC : Nothing of note. We continue to play a game with Joan.

IBT : Nothing.

1525 BC : NW warrior spots a blue city with the barbarian name of Atlanta. More foreigners to annihilate. N Warrior moves and discovers Russians on the next mountain peak Two archers ! Wow !

IBT : N Warrior embarrasses himself and all Rome by falling to the first archer he meets. An ignoble end.

1500 BC : S Warrior moves further into Greece – a suicide mission to pillage Alex’s horses.

Gratuitous advice : Rome finishes a Granary in 1 turn, Veii in three. Each could then start on some troops then a settler, or vice versa perhaps for Rome. Each will get a forest chop boost in a few turns, although I may have got the timing exactly and precisely wrong for Veii. :blush: The workers can then move to road the iron. Alternatively each could spin off a worker to help irrigate and road the deer tile faster before moving to the iron. Remember – the Russians are coming ! Two archers just south of Ninevah.The 1500BC Save
 

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Yay, two sets of turns in since I last checked!

Peanut: pretty gutsy building two Granaries while being at war with two civs! Of course, one of them is pretty far away.

Antium is our Wonder city, right? Is it pre-building for GreatLib now?

bigchief: you're up! You have a sensitive set of turns coming up. I believe you'll learn Mathmatics at the beginning of the turn you have to declare War on Joan, so there should be one chance to trade Math for some of the Techs she has before we declare war (unless she knows it already).

I like the dance with the French units; this keeps her away from this iron, but I think she has a source already up north. We will have to plan to remove that fairly soon after declaring war. If we capture the Settler (generating two Workers) we will have to disband them immediately; that's part of the variant we are playing. (Similarly, we will have to raze any captured cities that have any foreign citizens in them.)

Not sure what the unit status is; we have almost enough gold for 6 upgrades. Should probably disconnect the iron after upgrades - allows us to build more Warriors and saves the Iron from disappearing on us.

I'm flying home tonight and will be able to check out the save then, or tomorrow.
 
My turn log.

1475 BC Rome completes granary, starts archer. 3 warriors harassing French settler to the north. Bold Roman warrior moves onto Greek horses.

1450 BC Veii completes granary with help of forest chop and begins archer. Antium builds a warrior and begins archer. Worker at Veii irrigating game tile now. Warrior pillages Greek horses and issues some verbal taunts.

1425 BC Rome builds archer. We are in serious need of workers so Rome will build one and immediately send it to road the iron deposit. Archer and warrior move from Rome to iron. Worker irrigating chopped game tile by Rome. Pillaging warrior heads back into the hills. Going to head north and west through the mountains to pillage their incense.

1400 BC Greek Hoplite appears next to French settler to the north! Must be a scout returning from the north.

1375 BC Hoplite heading south towards us. Roman archer and warrior approach Thermopylae through the mountains. Pillaging warrior approaches Sparta... their incense isn't even hooked up yet.

1350 BC Rome builds worker and sends him off to road the iron. Second Hoplite now approaching from the north. I think briefly about sending those 3 warriors against them but it's a bad idea all around. They head south to help defend the homeland and to hopefully procure some new equipment that will soon be ready. Russian scout appears on the coast to the north west. Probably not a good sign. Veteran Roman archer attacks Greek warrior from a mountain position and is killed! These Greeks are inhuman and must be destroyed! Roman warrior is redlined finishing the job.

1325 BC Veii produces archer and begins walls in 3. Antium produces archer and begins a warrior.

1300 BC Rome completes warrior. Walls in 2. Move units to iron, including 2 additional workers. Greek warriors and archers approaching from west and southwest.

1275 BC Greek archer attacksour units on the iron. Roman spearman is redlined defending and is promoted. Veii completes walls. Greeks demand 240 gold for peace... the gall of these barbarians!

1250 BC Rome completes walls. Greek forces moving around to the south. 3 warriors moving off iron tile towards Rome to prepare for upgrade. The road to the iron will be complete in 1 turn.

We have 14 warriors, 2 archers, 1 spear, and 3 workers. Rome and Veii are working on settlers. We have 21 units and are allowed 16 so we need some more cities for sure. Those granaries will help quite a bit. I forget how much gold we have.

Antium needs to be switched over to the pre-build for the Library, and after the iron is hooked up the 3 workers should probably improve tiles around Antium. When I saw Hoplites coming from the north as well as that Russian scout, and then the units coming from Greece proper I started to panic and had Antium building units instead. In hind sight that was probably a bad idea. I should have started the pre build at the start of these turns.

There is one hoplite now inside our territory. My guess is that he is moving to pillage our horses. I suggest leaving him alone until we can bring Legions against him. No sense throwing warriors on his big spear just to make him an elite. His partner is just north of our territory heading in as well. The French settler last I saw was moving towards that iron north of us. I decided to leave him be because we are about to declare war on them anyway. Their new town will be the first French city to fall.

Remember: we must declare war on France in 1075 if not sooner.
 

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I haven't loaded the game yet, but I'll make a few comments based on the recent logs. Rather than Archers, we should be building Settlers in Veii and Warriors in Rome!! The Archer doesn't help us offensively against the Greek Hoplites, better to have 2 Warriors which will become Legions soon; our plan was to block them from moving in on us, occupy the high ground and force THEM to attack US at bad odds or no worse than even, we need a lot of units to do that. That Hoplite near Veii is bad news!! We can't afford to let him move onto ANY of our improved spaces, not our Roads, and certainly not the Irrigated Games space!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To do this will require us to move 3 Warriors out to defend our territory (leaving at least 2 units in Veii to protect it from the adjacent Hoplite!); far better to have blocked him out in the first place. And I'm not happy with building Walls at this point; I'd much rather have units in the field preventing him from attacking Rome, than defend Rome directly at this point.

The lack of a 5th city, providing support for 4 more units, is really hurting us right now.
 
Good critique, Steve. I replayed those turns just to see how playing them differently would change things. I founded a fifth city as quickly as I could and didn't build walls or archers. Was able to block the hoplites from the north (I really didn't think that would work! Jeez I learn something every turnset). The only drawback to this was defending Rome. I really had to scramble to do it and get the iron hooked up. I was successful but it was really close, and nearly lost the workers on the iron, and had to pump entertainment spending up and leave one defender in the other cities.

You're definitely right about the settler situation. I needed to have one city constantly building them... Veii as you suggested would be the best choice. And didn't I say myself in a previous post we needed one city constantly building settlers? :crazyeye: Didn't even follow my own advice in my scramble to defend.

With incoming enemies my goal was build a strong defense. I didn't want any cities lost and as few units lost as possible. And definitely no workers. We only have 3. I truly felt that for a strong defense the walls were a good choice. Veii's took 3 turns and Rome's only 2. A small price to pay in my opinion, and there is no maintenance cost. I could have built units instead but that would leave us even more over our limit. I know you are opposed to using archers. I only built a couple as I felt were needed. I was hoping to employ them successfully against attackers not defended by Hoplites but of course the first died all too quickly. Darned random number generator! :mad: Here I am hoping to have a situation where my archer build is justified and well timed... vet archer regiment attacks from mountains, raining arrows down on regular warrior regiment in plains below. Who should win? Even Steve will love it! But no, it is not to be.
 
(Peglegasus: you posted before I posted the rest of this post, so I'll comment on your post first :) . I didn't realize Walls were just 10 shields and didn't incur maintenance (I've NEVER built ANY, so I've definitely learned something as well!) In that perspective, that's not much of a resource cost, so I retract any comments regarding Walls. Don't get me wrong though; I'd much rather fight in the other civs territory than defend my cities, and that should be our focus as much as possible. Besides, if our cities are being beseiged that means we're probably being pillaged as well, which is really bad.

Regarding Archers: they're really only useful against Warriors and other Archers, or massed early against a city. (It IS bad luck to lose against the Warriors in this case :( ; if I had an Archer I'd probably take the shot as well.) Since we're really close to Legions which are a much better unit at only 10 more shields in cost, and can be upgraded to from Warrior, and the Greek Hoplites are in play which negates the early Massing idea, I'd prefer two Vet Warriors rather than 1 Vet Archer - they allow me to block better, they upgrade to Legion, and the 2 Vet Warriors together have a better chance to defeat the Reg Warrior (and any Archers as well) than the 1 Vet Archer by itself! Only downside is the extra gpt cost, so we can't build Warriors all day.)

rest of post:

OK, I've taken a look at the save, and gotten a good night's sleep. I looked at the F3 Military Advisor: we have 3 Workers, 15 Warriors, 2 Archers and 1 Spearman; 21 total with 16 Allowed so we are spending 5 gpt on our army. We also have 2 Granaries and 4 Barracks, so our maintenance cost is 6 gpt. We are still earning 5 gpt for Taxes, so our Treasury is still positive. The extra cities will definitely help.

According to F3 MilAdv, we are strong vs most other civs, average against a couple, and weak vs the Greeks. I'll read that to assume that Alex has been pop-rushing, and wont be able to do much more of that now.

I also checked the F4 Diplo Advisor. Of the 5 civs we've made contact with, no one else has Math yet, so chances are we will have a very good opportunity to trade Math, getting several Techs we are missing, and lots of gold. I also noted that France hasn't connected Iron or Horses; maybe we should try to hold Greece in place, and take advantage of France's lack of resources first.

Here is a screen shot of our Main screen:

Peanut_sg3_bc1250MainRes.JPG


First things first: we have just over 300 Gold and Iron will be connected next turn, so on the next turn we can upgrade as many as 7 Warriors (Vets only, please) to Legionaires. That's good!

I've placed red dots on the 4 improved spaces near the penetrating Hoplite adjacent to Veii. I think these 4 spaces need to be defended for at least 1 turn; otherwise, the Hoplite could decide to pillage one of them and we'd have no way to stop it. The following turn we will have some Legions, so if the Hoplite does move onto one of these spaces we could possibly attack it at decent odds. The two Orange dots are hills adjacent to Veii; if we block them, also, we keep the 2nd Hoplite at arm's length, allowing us to deal with one Hoplite at a time, and we keep him off of Hills spaces which offer decent defense. We can't afford to lose ANY of these red dotted road spaces; we're about to connect Iron, and losing a road means no upgrades in cities that have been cut off!

To occupy all these dots (4 red and 2 orange), we would need to move both Warriors in Cumae to nearby red dots (one to the Games space and one to the roaded BG), 1 Vet Warrior in Veii W to the Roaded/Mined BG, 1 Archer in Veii NW to hills (orange dot), and 1 Warrior in Rome to red dot on road between Rome and Veii. (I tried moving the units; discovered that the Warrior on the hill had already moved so one Orange dot is left open; still I'd do these moves to keep the Hoplites from linking up.) Veii needs 2 defenders, so a 2nd Warrior from Rome would travel to Veii. In addition to these moves, I'd recommend moving the Reg Warrior from Antium 2 spaces North over the river; from there it can help defend our territory, and the Vet Warrior in Antium can be upgraded for defense if needed. These units have a 1 movement left (except the Hills warrior and one of the Veii warriors) so these moves can be done immediately if desired. Cumae loses both MP's so be sure to check it's contentness; might need an entertainer (or Taxman if possible and needed).

Antium is our pre-build city so it should start pre-building! It is secluded so we need to be ready to shift forces to its defense if needed. It has a Barracks, so warriors in Antium can be upgraded.

I've placed a big Green Circle around the mountains spaces SE of Rome. These are critical spaces that we have to control to mount our offensive against Greece. Holding these mountains means we have the defensive advantage, and we can move forward to attack Greece while keeping the most direct path under our watch and control. Unfortunately Greece holds these mountains now! Fortunately, it's only with Warriors and Archers, which we should be able to displace with Legions. If Greece gets Hoplites in these mountains, we're going to need Catapults to expel him or lose lots of Legions doing it.

Finally, what is our contact status? Have we opened up any negotiations with America and Germany? After every log the person completing the turns needs to post the contact status, listing the order we've contacted civs and the year by which we need to declare war against that civ.

bigchief: I believe you're up!!
 
I've got the save. I will probably play tomorrow. Any further input is welcome. I will post some of my thoughts later today.
 
I believe the hoplites can probably be herded through our territory without letting them do any damage. I really feel bad having let one in now that I've seen how easy it is to block them :( .Those greek units to the west were originally north of those positions. They tried to move on the iron first but I had too strong a force there and they gave up. The last couple turns they moved south. I think the walls in Rome plus all those units defending the iron was too much of a deterrent. My guess is they will move around south towards Antium.

With walls now in Veii, one Legion will be a strong defense. Of course better to be safe than sorry so 2 units is better. But after seeing how I could use the 3 warriors to block the Hoplites I don't see how even the random number generator could make a Hoplite go for a walled city with a Legion defending.

In my inexpert opinion, the units to upgrade will be the ones in Rome and on the hill next to Rome, one in Antium and perhaps one in Veii.

As our Golden Age is fast approaching, would it be worth it to build a couple extra workers and add them to Antium? Because my paranoia delayed starting the pre-build we may need the extra boost.
 
Just a quick observation. We are not playing as a team right now. With the difficulty of this variant we can not afford to not have a unified plan. I did not mind the shift to the two grainaries, that was a risky but still according to our plan. I do think moving Antium away from a pre-build was a mistake and my gut feeling is that we lost our opportunity to build the GL. I am now for putting the shields into Legionaries and taking it or generating a great leader. I also think we had laid it out pretty clear that our military plan was to build warrior first as blocking units and other units only as needed. I was building a spearman only for the purpose of protecting the iron. With iron so close to coming on line there is no need for archers.
 
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