I agree it is not a huge problem with the early war, but it was not just a few turns early it was 17 turns early and it was more the issue of not stopping to get input when something important occurs in the game. But, I have begun playing now and the first turn into it Aztecs and a whole bunch of other tribes have Music Theory, so would have been able to buy it if a Leader turns up. Also, 18gpt, is not much per se but if we add up all bad decisions taken without team input we have squandered quite a few Knights/Cavalry along the road.
SGOTM3 Rome - Team Smackster
- Thread starter mad-bax
- Start date
@Wotan... I am not ignorant, the only reason i didn't pause the game i was sure i knew what i was doing. If i had any doubt i would stop to ask.
You have the rights to be mad at the wrong decision i made. but not at the fact i didn't stop the game.
You have the rights to be mad at the wrong decision i made. but not at the fact i didn't stop the game.
smackster
SGOTM
OK, time to cool it on the bad decision stuff, no finger pointing anymore. You made the point, he apologised, and its finished. Even if we lose by a point be happy that we played our best game.Wotan said:
Maybe I should not be team leader (trust me I did not volunteer), but I really don't care about winning. I've really enjoyed this game and the communication we have all had and feel that we have all learned from it, and that is all that matters. Sure if we can get a joint Gold/Green laurel, I'll take it.
smackster
SGOTM
I posted this earlier but want to say it again.
From now, only build settlers, cavalry or caravels (the exceptions are, workers where the city is too small and not connected, or temples on the barb island as that's the only way to get the moutains in our culture). Therefore no libraries, no marketplaces, no Muskets (if you want to build a Musket army, there are plenty around).
What about Muskets for defence of the core you say, well one Cavalry can do that for about 3 cities. What about Muskets for defence of the front line you say, well we have plenty sitting around, move them to the front. What about Marketplaces in a city that needs some more happiness, use entertainers.
This is the rule, and can only be changed for a specific city if the team agrees.
From now, only build settlers, cavalry or caravels (the exceptions are, workers where the city is too small and not connected, or temples on the barb island as that's the only way to get the moutains in our culture). Therefore no libraries, no marketplaces, no Muskets (if you want to build a Musket army, there are plenty around).
What about Muskets for defence of the core you say, well one Cavalry can do that for about 3 cities. What about Muskets for defence of the front line you say, well we have plenty sitting around, move them to the front. What about Marketplaces in a city that needs some more happiness, use entertainers.
This is the rule, and can only be changed for a specific city if the team agrees.
DeceasedHorse
Prince
I assume that Wotan is up, then?
RE: Prizes/Laurals/all that crap:
I have been playing under false assumptions for much of the game, hence my numerous comments on maximizing score. I should have payed more attention to the overall goal, which was finishing as soon as possible, rather than jacking up our score.
Smackster is correct in that this a rather complex variant, especially given how quickly we've been going through the game. It is hard to keep track of contact dates, declarations dates, ecetera, especially combined with the somewhat ambigous wording of the initial variant rules and Civ's own turn structure.
RE: Prizes/Laurals/all that crap:
I have been playing under false assumptions for much of the game, hence my numerous comments on maximizing score. I should have payed more attention to the overall goal, which was finishing as soon as possible, rather than jacking up our score.
Smackster is correct in that this a rather complex variant, especially given how quickly we've been going through the game. It is hard to keep track of contact dates, declarations dates, ecetera, especially combined with the somewhat ambigous wording of the initial variant rules and Civ's own turn structure.
smackster
SGOTM
To be honest so was I, but its always better for your Jason score to get a quick finish, so hopefully I didn't derail us too much in any of the score making decisions I made (I moved the slider 10% to the right for a few turns, for example).DeceasedHorse said:
Anyway, hopefully now we are all on the same page. Finishing early. Domination still has to be the best bet as we are sure to face Rifles now. So we still have to expand as quickly as possible. Then we'll get the best score still as we grab all the land.
edit: Wotan did post his "I got it" and said he was playing
Before posting my report I would like to say that I am not mad (really) at anyone. I just want us to play the best game possible and in doing so also learn more about civ3 and how to play it well. There are many areas where I am at a loss and I appreciate any help in overcoming those. There are still areas where we as a team can improve too, not only in keeping focus on the game but how to use units to the best of their capacity.
One area in particular I have noticed is Worker management. Since it takes a W. 3 turns to road a tile moving more than 1 into the tile is a waste og Worker actions unless you are in a hurry and have to have the road up quick in which case you move 3 into the tile. The difference being that if you use 1 the total cost is 1 to move into the tile and 3 turn to work it for a total cost of 4 "Worker actions-WA" done in 4 turns. If you move 2 it will cost 6 WA in 3 turns, and 3 is 6WA in 2 turns. The same goes for irrigation, mining etc. Make sure you use the appropriate number of workers for the job in question. Normally the cheapest way is to move but 1 into an unroaded tile and road it. After that it is just a question of the number of turns you want it ready in as irrigated or mined. As you do not pay a turn to move into the tile if there is a road and you have MPs left.
Sometimes you can have two workers chopping a forest, when that is done after 5 turns, set one of them to road the other to irrigate and the road will be ready the turn before the irrigation. This way you save at least 1WA. Or move 1 Worker into the forest on turn 1 and two on turn 2, then the forest will be cleared in 4 turns 3x3 + 1x1 WA = 10 and then you can have all three road it for an instant road if needed.
One area in particular I have noticed is Worker management. Since it takes a W. 3 turns to road a tile moving more than 1 into the tile is a waste og Worker actions unless you are in a hurry and have to have the road up quick in which case you move 3 into the tile. The difference being that if you use 1 the total cost is 1 to move into the tile and 3 turn to work it for a total cost of 4 "Worker actions-WA" done in 4 turns. If you move 2 it will cost 6 WA in 3 turns, and 3 is 6WA in 2 turns. The same goes for irrigation, mining etc. Make sure you use the appropriate number of workers for the job in question. Normally the cheapest way is to move but 1 into an unroaded tile and road it. After that it is just a question of the number of turns you want it ready in as irrigated or mined. As you do not pay a turn to move into the tile if there is a road and you have MPs left.
Sometimes you can have two workers chopping a forest, when that is done after 5 turns, set one of them to road the other to irrigate and the road will be ready the turn before the irrigation. This way you save at least 1WA. Or move 1 Worker into the forest on turn 1 and two on turn 2, then the forest will be cleared in 4 turns 3x3 + 1x1 WA = 10 and then you can have all three road it for an instant road if needed.
First a mini map:
Turn log
0 750AD preturn
Annoyed with Worker allocations, but will address this in a separate post. One shortrushed Cavalry. Having 10% on science is a bit of a waste when going for 40 turns so put a scientist in a corrupt city and set science to 0%
IBT: German knight and two Iroquois Horse land near our Barb lands city. No other serious actions.
1 760AD
Raised Babylonian city near Wotan. Failed to take Babylon. Another issue, would prefer if players refrain from setting units to go to that keeps it on those orders when handing over to the next player. Last time such orders took me by surprise two Galleys moved next to a pile of Barb.Galleys resulting in the loss of both our Galleys This time plenty of units moved during this turn, nothing major but among the moves I actually looked at two Workers moved into the same grassland!
IBT: One Cavalry killed, but took an American Knight with him. Iroquois Horse attack barb. German Knight attack and is retreated.
2 770AD
Babylon raised, 7 Workers put to the sword. Shortrushed a few Cavalry. New Palmyra founded.
IBT: Nothing really happening, a few Knights/Cavalry attack our Forward Ops but no losses incurred.
3 780AD
Preparations for attack on Ur.
Check this out if you have not done so in the past:
INT: 1 Cavalry lost.
4 790AD
New Jerusalem founded. Ur raised, last attack gave a Leader. Moving to repeat performace at Akkad, SF, Philly and Windy City.
IBT: Japan land settler plus 3 units near New Aesonesium. 1 American Cavalry attack and it failed. Russian Knight landed next to Ravenna.
5 800AD
All but 1 Japanese Pike killed. Russian knight dispatched by new Cavalry from Veii. In position to attack Philly next turn. New Caesarea founded. Cavalry Army formed, just 2 cavalry loaded into it, please do not load a third until it has been transported to the other continent!!! Caravels transport capacity = 3!
IBT: One Musket killed by American Cavalry, A few attacks from Barbarians but no additional losses.
6 810AD
New Tarentum founded within Akkads territory. Akkad raised and Babylon is gone
Philly is gone. SF gone.
IBT: Skirmishing by Barbarians. One Japanese Samurai bravely lands next to Ravenna.
7 820AD
Japanese Samurai dispatched. Leipzig burned. 3 American cities burned, forgot to write down their names
IBT: Japan builds Copernicus.
8 830AD
Sverdlovsk burned. And Frankfurt.
IBT: Lost one Cavalry to American Cavalry. Barbarian skirmishers.
9 840AD
Washington is no more Nor is Yakutsk.
IBT: Lost another Cavalry to a German Knight. Barbarian skirmishers.
10 850AD
Hamburg raised. Some Alarums and Excursions
A number of Settlers near their destinations see Maps. A few others just moving in the general direction of new lands. New York should fall next turn as should München. The turn after units near Boston will have healed so it can be raised. Have rushed/shortrushed Cavalry each turn. Also rushed a couple of temples and a few Settlers. No MMing done this turn. No organised opposition on our continent. Suggest a shift to research Navigation within a couple of turns to prepare for Overlord. And to stop researching altogether after it is finished. We need to start preparing for that campaign, my suggestion is to use NEW SMACKSTER as port of embarkation since it is closest to other continent and with a port as in my map a few posts back can be serviced with two caravels per move from port to port (if we have Magellans, not impossible to get a leader during DHs turns?)
So DH, all yours, finish off the continent now so Smackster can focus on the invasion and populating the barbarian lands.
And again, I am absolutely not disappointed with the teams performance. I would love to continue this cooperation in SGOTM4. That is if you want my stubbornness and nagging on the team.
Score: 1871
Suggested placement tiles for Settlers:
Turn log
0 750AD preturn
Annoyed with Worker allocations, but will address this in a separate post. One shortrushed Cavalry. Having 10% on science is a bit of a waste when going for 40 turns so put a scientist in a corrupt city and set science to 0%
IBT: German knight and two Iroquois Horse land near our Barb lands city. No other serious actions.
1 760AD
Raised Babylonian city near Wotan. Failed to take Babylon. Another issue, would prefer if players refrain from setting units to go to that keeps it on those orders when handing over to the next player. Last time such orders took me by surprise two Galleys moved next to a pile of Barb.Galleys resulting in the loss of both our Galleys This time plenty of units moved during this turn, nothing major but among the moves I actually looked at two Workers moved into the same grassland!
IBT: One Cavalry killed, but took an American Knight with him. Iroquois Horse attack barb. German Knight attack and is retreated.
2 770AD
Babylon raised, 7 Workers put to the sword. Shortrushed a few Cavalry. New Palmyra founded.
IBT: Nothing really happening, a few Knights/Cavalry attack our Forward Ops but no losses incurred.
3 780AD
Preparations for attack on Ur.
Check this out if you have not done so in the past:
INT: 1 Cavalry lost.
4 790AD
New Jerusalem founded. Ur raised, last attack gave a Leader. Moving to repeat performace at Akkad, SF, Philly and Windy City.
IBT: Japan land settler plus 3 units near New Aesonesium. 1 American Cavalry attack and it failed. Russian Knight landed next to Ravenna.
5 800AD
All but 1 Japanese Pike killed. Russian knight dispatched by new Cavalry from Veii. In position to attack Philly next turn. New Caesarea founded. Cavalry Army formed, just 2 cavalry loaded into it, please do not load a third until it has been transported to the other continent!!! Caravels transport capacity = 3!
IBT: One Musket killed by American Cavalry, A few attacks from Barbarians but no additional losses.
6 810AD
New Tarentum founded within Akkads territory. Akkad raised and Babylon is gone
Philly is gone. SF gone.
IBT: Skirmishing by Barbarians. One Japanese Samurai bravely lands next to Ravenna.
7 820AD
Japanese Samurai dispatched. Leipzig burned. 3 American cities burned, forgot to write down their names
IBT: Japan builds Copernicus.
8 830AD
Sverdlovsk burned. And Frankfurt.
IBT: Lost one Cavalry to American Cavalry. Barbarian skirmishers.
9 840AD
Washington is no more Nor is Yakutsk.
IBT: Lost another Cavalry to a German Knight. Barbarian skirmishers.
10 850AD
Hamburg raised. Some Alarums and Excursions
A number of Settlers near their destinations see Maps. A few others just moving in the general direction of new lands. New York should fall next turn as should München. The turn after units near Boston will have healed so it can be raised. Have rushed/shortrushed Cavalry each turn. Also rushed a couple of temples and a few Settlers. No MMing done this turn. No organised opposition on our continent. Suggest a shift to research Navigation within a couple of turns to prepare for Overlord. And to stop researching altogether after it is finished. We need to start preparing for that campaign, my suggestion is to use NEW SMACKSTER as port of embarkation since it is closest to other continent and with a port as in my map a few posts back can be serviced with two caravels per move from port to port (if we have Magellans, not impossible to get a leader during DHs turns?)
So DH, all yours, finish off the continent now so Smackster can focus on the invasion and populating the barbarian lands.
And again, I am absolutely not disappointed with the teams performance. I would love to continue this cooperation in SGOTM4. That is if you want my stubbornness and nagging on the team.
Score: 1871
Suggested placement tiles for Settlers:
Just a little clarification to avoid confusion:
The Cavalry army is intentionally at two Cavalry loaded into it. If a third was to be loaded into the army, the army would be unable to be loaded onto a Caravel for transport to the other continent. When safely across the ocean please laod a third Cavalry into it...
The Cavalry army is intentionally at two Cavalry loaded into it. If a third was to be loaded into the army, the army would be unable to be loaded onto a Caravel for transport to the other continent. When safely across the ocean please laod a third Cavalry into it...
smackster
SGOTM
Great turns, I thought they would go down quickly once we got Cavalry. So lets get Navigation ASAP, and start the mobilization towards the other continent before they do get those dreaded Rifles.
Thanks, Cavalry is my favourite unit in the game, they are so versatile. I fully agree with you re. production, Cavalry will do an exellent job defending our turf as well as conquering the enemies lands. Unfortunately I seldom have them until very late in games nowadays if at all, at least if going after Dom/Conq. (On the other hand I cannot remember a game where I have built as many Muskets as we have in this game, normally less than a handful for very specific tasks.)
All production set to either: Cavalry, Settler, Workers Caravels (need several to shift to that on the west coast) and Temples in coastal cities to expand over all coastal tiles. We need temples too for cultural expansion because every tile is important. Else I agree with your suggestions.
All production set to either: Cavalry, Settler, Workers Caravels (need several to shift to that on the west coast) and Temples in coastal cities to expand over all coastal tiles. We need temples too for cultural expansion because every tile is important. Else I agree with your suggestions.
smackster
SGOTM
And for this reason we should try to keep together as a team for SGOTM4, now that we all know each other more, its actually easier to criticise and to take that criticism from one another.Wotan said:
And we all know now that when Wotan goes on a rant that he's just trying to help us
I'll just make sure in the next game that your turns don't follow mine 
I do certainly appreciate the time and effort you have spent on the maps and the level of criticism.
smackster said:And we all know now that when Wotan goes on a rant that he's just trying to help us
Ah, you have understood what in RL my fellow colleagues at work have eventually learnt too. That my barking is very much worse than my biting.
Many a new employee have had nightmares for a while until they understand what a benevolent manager I really am...
Should I feel like a disgrantled employee right now then???
and if i may ask a question...
Since we are going to stop all research and build only military units..
Do we want to consider switching to mobilization at some point???
I am not sure if you can build settlers during mobilization and it will not help to expand territory by building temples... But just a thought...
Great turns Wotan!!!
... I don't think Germany and America will have something to say ever...
And...yes... worker management is something i have been trying to learn for a long time already, but i am afraid i will never be good at that...
Well, at least i didn't fortify all the units i have inside cities by the end of my turns.
and if i may ask a question...
Since we are going to stop all research and build only military units..
Do we want to consider switching to mobilization at some point???
I am not sure if you can build settlers during mobilization and it will not help to expand territory by building temples... But just a thought...
Great turns Wotan!!!
... I don't think Germany and America will have something to say ever...And...yes... worker management is something i have been trying to learn for a long time already, but i am afraid i will never be good at that...
Well, at least i didn't fortify all the units i have inside cities by the end of my turns.
Had another look at the save from 850AD, the continent should be ours in 4 or max 5 turns so maybe shift to get Navigation sooner than just prior to Smacksters turns. Also need to rush Caravels on west coast for an earlier invasion. Still suggest going after India first due to geographical reasons. Shortest distance across the ocean!
Edit @Dmanakho, the opposite, we are having fun on this team so enjoy it, and that is an order.
Temples for cultural expansion will give us so many tiles we cannot do without them, just look at the coastlines on our home continent and in particular on the barbarian continent.
Edit2: I guess that was my last turns played in this game. Should end at the latest during Tarkeel's turns. The Xenophobe bit do add a few turns in the end as we need to build cities on the new continent to get past the domination limit. But building them 4 tiles apart should give us maximum gain wo need of cultural expansion on the other continent else disband a unit in each newly found city and rush a library for fastest possible expansion.
Also, we may need to kill of some extra enemy cities to fulfill the population requirement for domination.
Edit @Dmanakho, the opposite, we are having fun on this team so enjoy it, and that is an order.
Temples for cultural expansion will give us so many tiles we cannot do without them, just look at the coastlines on our home continent and in particular on the barbarian continent.
Edit2: I guess that was my last turns played in this game. Should end at the latest during Tarkeel's turns. The Xenophobe bit do add a few turns in the end as we need to build cities on the new continent to get past the domination limit. But building them 4 tiles apart should give us maximum gain wo need of cultural expansion on the other continent else disband a unit in each newly found city and rush a library for fastest possible expansion.
Also, we may need to kill of some extra enemy cities to fulfill the population requirement for domination.
RE: City Locations.. Did you see my filler map for the North Wotan? I'll fill in the rest of it.. It's based on max coverage without culture really.
RE: Mobilization: No way will we research Nationalism Rails would have been nice to get the settlers to boats in 1 turn, but not worth it.
RE: Population: Not a problem. Just join in some of those loose workers and any spare settlers
RE: Mobilization: No way will we research Nationalism
Rails would have been nice to get the settlers to boats in 1 turn, but not worth it.RE: Population: Not a problem. Just join in some of those loose workers and any spare settlers
Tarkeel said:
Yes, unfortunately I used a few Settlers to "jump" closer to enemy cities in preparation for attacks so I made an amended suggestion for the area in question to take those cities into account . Sorry about that, Tarkeel.
Great work, Tarkeel. Not many of those cities need temples to fill out coastal tiles.
Just a thought: We might want to consider landing on several sites along the barbarian coastline? If every settler is to go through the current port of entry we will have a long wait before the lands are filled with our culture. I forgot to take this into account during my turns so I continued to land Settlers in the south. Maybe rush a few Caravels along the coast and just sail across. The German island in the north should also be settled...
Just a thought: We might want to consider landing on several sites along the barbarian coastline? If every settler is to go through the current port of entry we will have a long wait before the lands are filled with our culture. I forgot to take this into account during my turns so I continued to land Settlers in the south. Maybe rush a few Caravels along the coast and just sail across. The German island in the north should also be settled...
