SGOTM4 - Team Bede

[Zakharov]

I can confirm that Utica is producing 68 uncorrupted shields, not 105. I saw this with CivAssist too and I don't know how it gets that number.

We should be able to research sci method in 7 turns (plus 1 turn for electricity). The Palace finishes in 2 and the MilAcad takes 6, so both will be finished on the turn we get sci method. We can then rush ToE the following turn.

I would rather rush ToE than Hoover, as we will have a (small) chance of getting another leader that way.

 

[MOTH]

I jokingly said in the Spoiler that maybe we would also get the Wooden Spoons in additional to the Golden Laurels. I think with all of the leaders at key times that we must be just about a lock for the Golden Laurels.

Now its time for a radical idea:
Lets think about really going after the Wooden Spoons too for an additional challange.

We are maybe 15-20 turns from when we could build 5 Hospitals and thus Battlefield Medicine. And maybe 75 turns from winning. If we were to abandon all of our cities except Utica (which we would get to at least size 20) our score would start to slow down significantly due to the lost population and territory. We would essentially be finishing the game as 1CC.

What does the team think about this idea?

 

[Zakharov]

What does the team think about this idea?

Nice idea but I don't think it would work. If we do get the gold laurel it will mean we get a larger Jason bonus than any other team, which in turn will boost our score past the other teams.

With all teams playing the variant, we have a better chance of getting the green laurel than the wooden spoon.

 

[TimBentley]

Wall Street is a good small wonder for culture (300 shields, 2cpt), so the corporation is another possibility for research. I'll probably build the palace and military academy, rush ToE, start Hoover's, try to trade for nationalism (if possible), consider the costs and benefits of the possible research paths, and try to get another leader (or more than one). And I won't try for the wooden spoon.

 

[MOTH]

Team Offa has jumped ahead of us in the base score and the last message in their thread is one from mad-bax. From the spoiler, they were going for Conquest. I'm going to guess that they finished their conquest win in 860AD. Can we figure out what the Jason date might be for Conquest as opposed to 20K and see if we stil look good with our target date?

If the date doesn't look good then we should consider if we can get to Diplo before we get to 20K.

 

[Bede]

We need to concentrate on two things: max culture in Utica and max happy population. So anything that boosts culture in Utica and happiness and population elsewhere will be the biggest determinants of the scoring.

The advantage we have over Offa is that our cities will be larger and the population more content. As for scoping the Jason score I have no idea how to do it.

 

[Zakharov]

Team Offa has jumped ahead of us in the base score and the last message in their thread is one from mad-bax. From the spoiler, they were going for Conquest. I'm going to guess that they finished their conquest win in 860AD. Can we figure out what the Jason date might be for Conquest as opposed to 20K and see if we stil look good with our target date?

If the date doesn't look good then we should consider if we can get to Diplo before we get to 20K.

We will get a diplo win at about the same time as a 20K win. If you look at relative Jason dates on the calculator section of the GOTM page, you will see that 20K has the latest date of the 6 win types.

As an example, here are the Jason best dates from GOTM28:
Conquest 1200AD
Cultural 20k 1760AD
Cultural 100k 1555AD
Diplomatic 1010AD
Domination 970AD
Space Race 1330AD

Therefore we will be better off sticking to the 20K target.

Obviously an 860AD conquest win would easily beat us for the gold laurel, but it is too late to do anything about that now. Personally I believe the Jason scoring system is skewed towards Conquest and Domination wins. Granted it's not as bad as the Firaxis scoring system, but it is skewed nonetheless. 860AD is 34 turns before the Jason best conquest date. 34 turns before the 20K date is 1605AD. I don't see how we could have got a 20K win by that date, but I'm sure it is possible to get a conquest win even before 860AD.

The Jason 'best date' should be just that, the earliest possible date to win by each victory condition. However, many conquest/domination wins are achieved well before the 'best date', whilst it is very difficult to get a peaceful win before the 'best date'.

Anyway I'm just ranting here. If Team Offa did get a victory in 860AD then they must have played a very good game. I just think that a good conquest/domination win will always outscore and outpace (relative to Jason best date) a 20K, diplo or spaceship win. It is a flaw in the scoring system rather than a gripe against other teams which has me frustrated.

Well that is just my opinion.

 

[fbouthil]

I am no expert, but I think the Jason score is made of 2 parts: date bonus and score bonus. I think a peaceful victory type would normally give a smaller date bonus and a bigger score bonus. That is certainly not as much true as in a normal game because of the 5CC.

Therefore, unless mad-bax has taken the variant into account in the Jason scoring (which I doubt since it would mean the teams playing the variant would not have the same Jason best date than those not playing the variant), going for a 20K victory was a mistake.

I have never realized how much understanding the Jason scoring system was so important before. In GOTM, I usually concentrate on winning as fast as possible and do some efforts in milking. I probably never do enough milking as I have always considered that part boring.

Anyway, I think the 20K victory was probably much more fun than a conquest victory (which is much closer to my usual type of game). Therefore, I do not regret going for that victory type. I will consider ourselves winners if we are the fastest of the teams going for that victory type and will award ourselves a custom laurel. How about a silver laurel?

 

[TimBentley]

If team Offa won a 860 AD conquest victory, they did very well indeed, considering the best conquest date in GOTM 28 was in 950 AD. Therefore I do not think Offa won in 860 AD. Regardless, we shall be sticking to the 20k victory, which I still think seems like the victory slowed least by the city number restriction. I'll start playing in a few minutes.

 

[Bede]

To put everybody's mind a little at rest I spent some time studying the Jason scoring. There is a huge modifier applied for a 20K victory. It is about 3.125X the modifier for a conquest victory, so even with a 860AD victory I think the approach we are taking remains sound and winnable.

The great equalizer is the 5cc limitation. The territorial and population values for a conquest win under normal GOTM conditions are just not here.

 

[TimBentley]

1450(0)-sell wool to Celts for silks, 2gpt, 1g, TM
switch LMOZ1 to courthouse, MM it for more gold
MM Hippo for more gold
switch Hippo to ironclad
MM Leptis Minor for more food and gold
reduce science to 90% (barely possible)

IBT-learn electricity, start on scientific method (7 turns)
Leptis Minor worker->wealth
Theveste ironclad->ironclad

1455(1)-it would take 445gpt to get scientific method in 6 turns; keep science at 90%
MM LMOZ1 to max shields
MM Theveste to max shields
MM Hippo for more food, gold

IBT-Utica palace->military academy
build a better gate and a connection to the left wing of the palace
Germany drops off settler and musketman in northeast

1460(2)-odd, corruption is now lower
oh, I forgot a more distant palace lowers corruption
MM Theveste for more production
MM Hippo for more shields and more gold
MM Leptis Minor for more shields and more food
MM LMOZ1 for more gold

IBT-Germany founds Nuremburg
LMOZ1 courthouse->wealth, MM it for more shields (causing more gold)

1465(3)-switch Leptis Minor to musketman
chop forests near Leptis Minor, MM it for more gold
MM Theveste for more gold

IBT-Theveste ironclad->wealth
Hippo ironclad->wealth, MM it for more nonscientific income

1470(4)-zzz

IBT-Leptis Minor musketman->wealth, MM it for max gold

1475(5)-zzz

1480(6)-zzz

1485(7)-zzz

IBT-learn scientific method, research set to atomic theory at 0%
Utica military tradition->ToE

1490(8)-rush ToE
sell magnetism to Greece for incense, horses, world map, 1g
they learn steam power
sell electricity to Persia for WM, 247g, 146gpt
sell electricity to India for WM, 18g, 43gpt
if research was at 100%, everyone would be happy, income would be +95gpt
send troops into Roman territory
set research to corporation (for Wall Street)

IBT-Utica ToE->Hoover
learn atomic theory and electronics
Celts drop settler and pikeman in southeast
build connection to right wing of palace

1495(9)-India and Ottomans know nationalism
bombardment of Brundisium isn't very helpful
elite MDI dies, elite MDI wins, elite NuMerc wins, elite NuMerc wins to capture Brundisium
no improvements to sell, abandon the city
Fledging Romans are destroyed
start research on sanitation, since Hoover will take 12 turns

IBT-build on connection to right wing of palace
Celts found city

1500(10)-zzz

Notes: War with Germany should start when elite units have healed
Cities should be switched to factory prebuilds for hospitals soon
Once hospitals are built, workers should be merged into cities. Roman workers will never be unhappy due to aggression against the mother country.
Nationalism can be bought from India or Ottomans. Consider selling industrialization.
CivAssist says victory will come in 1784

Here is the save.

 

[MOTH]

got it. the hotel has free internet. I'll play by late this evening.

 

[Zakharov]

Once hospitals are built, workers should be merged into cities. Roman workers will never be unhappy due to aggression against the mother country.

This is a good point. Now that we have defeated the Romans, a Roman citizen in our towns is exactly the same as one of our citizens. We just need to make sure we keep enough slaves to deal with pollution.

Join native workers first (to save on support), then use Roman slaves if necessary. Do not use slaves of other nationality.

Nationalism can be bought from India or Ottomans. Consider selling industrialization.

We can wait a few turns before we need it. Hopefully someone else will get Nationalism so it will be cheaper. When we get sanitation, we should research the Corporation so that we can get Wall Street (with 5 stock exchanges). Wall Street is 300sh/2cpt, the IntAgency is 400sh/1cpt. Therefore we should go for Wall Street first.

There is a huge modifier applied for a 20K victory. It is about 3.125X the modifier for a conquest victory...

If this is true than I will be very happy.

 

[fbouthil]

Most of what I was going to suggest has already been written by other players, but I would not hold on industrialisation since we want to accelerate research.

Should we bring someone else against Germany in hope it does not bring someone else against us? Probably not, but I just want to bring the point for discussion.

 

[TimBentley]

I agree on researching the corporation. I think we may be able to buy replaceable parts and flight from the AIs.

 

[Bede]

Nice progress.

I love it when a plan works out.

 

[Zakharov]

The scoring graph now goes up to turn 110. We are all set to put the staff team into last place.

 

[fbouthil]

As Zakharov has mentioned we have plenty of cav, so the 2 Maces near Heidelburg can be disbanded when Utica builds a hospital. The Caravel next to Utica can also be disbanded. Clearly, the 2 elite* in Utica also. We just need to keep one to rush a stock exchange once the Battlefield Medicine is built.

Leptis Magna, Theveste and Hippo should start prebuilding a hospital next turn. Leptis Minor can wait one more turn before starting its prebuild because of its extra production.

I think there is no point in keeping Leptis Minor undefended since Rome is dead.

 

[MOTH]

0-1500 Started factories in Theveste, Hippo, LMOZ1
Trade Industry and Electricity for Nationalism from Ottomans
Trade Industry to India for 35GPT and all their gold.
Trade Electricity to Germany for 123G.
Medicine to Celts for 5GPT + change
Industry to Persia for 18gpt+40
Gift some 1st level techs to see if any GPT opens up next turn to Babylon, Celts, Greece, Persia. By definition they were probably researching these.

IBT - pollution in Utica.

1-1505 - clean up pollution. Leptis Minor starts Factory.
Persia has some more money- trade wool for 6gpt.
Declare war on Germany. Move into territory. I don't bring anyone in on the war as we want to be able to finish soon.

IBT - Celts want a MPP and ROP - no.

2-1510 Bomb Heidelberg - redline 2 spears and kill a citizen. Attack with Elite Merc and Elite MDI both win but no promo. Other Elite Mercs in position for Nurenberg.
Ghandi's got money trade Scientific Method for 74gpt.
Ottomon's got money trade SciMet for 16gpt
Gift everyone up to Scientific Method to hope they research something good.

3-1515 Bomb Nurenberg with a few cannon and bring over the rest. There's only 1 musket that's now 3/4 so I chance the 2 Elite Mercs which lose and put the musket at 2/5. Adjust sliders for Sanitation still in 2.

4-1520 Bomb again and attack with Elite MDI wins and no promo. Adjust sliders for Sanitation in 1.

IBT - Sanitation>Corporation in 6.

5-1525 Switch Factories to Hospitals in 1.
Germany wil give us peace straight up. I take it and then Industy for 22 GPT.
I trade Sanitation for money to try and get the reasearch rate going.
to celts for 42gpt. to India for 25gpt. to Ottomons for 16gpt. to Babylon for 11gpt.

IBT - 4 Hospitals>Wealth.

6-1530 Join in native workers and all but 8 roman workers and 1 indian worker. Cities are now size 19, 19, 18, 18, 12. MM for food so they can grow to 20. Corporation is now in 4 at 100% with +320gpt. 12 happy and 1 content the rest sad in each city, so once we can lower research we can get more happy faces. Stock Exchanges are 200shields, so factory pre-builds started in Hippo, LMOZ1, and Theveste. Oops missed a few native and other workers - cities are now 20,20,20,19.

IBT - Ghandi wants Ivory and I give in as we are getting lots of gpt. Persia has a knight in our land and a couple settler pairs nearby. The people love me - I add a second story attaching the left wing. Is the palace complete now? WLTKD stops due to unhappiness.

7-1535 I check that the settler pairs have no where to go and fill in one spot on old wool. I notice a barb camp and send Cav but no promo. Adjust Sliders.

IBT - Persia founds Sidon in the South. Polution near Leptis Minor.

8-1540 With only 9 slave workers we can't clear polution in one turn. Start factory in Leptis Minor (I should have done this earlier).

IBT - Germans talk and want an Alliance vs the Greeks. I say no. More Polution near LMOZ1 in hills.

9-1545 Adjust sliders. Clear 1 Polution.

IBT - Learn The Corporation. Start on Espionage in 4 but this can be vetoed.

10-1550 Switch cities to Stock Exchanges. All workers on auto-polution detail. Polution will be cleared in 3.

Situation: Hoover in 1 turn. Cities are pretty stable at size 20. Leptis Minor has enough food that we can get some occasion workers our of it. There are only 2 trades worth considering: Babylon Spices for 3 gpt and Celts Spices or Atomic Theory for gpt.

Civ Assist won't run for my save, so I couldn't update the 20K date.

Firaxis: 755
Jason: 1000

the save

Rotation:
Bede
Zakharov
fbouthil
TimBentley
MOTH

 

[TimBentley]

Looking good. I'm too tired to examine the save but the victory date has not changed (not surprising considering no cultural buildings were built) from 1784. Utica should probably build a hospital, a stock exchange, Wall Street, the Intelligence Agency, and Battlefield Medicine.