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SGOTM4 - Team Bede

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession GOTM (SGOTM)' started by mad-bax, Sep 19, 2004.

  1. MOTH

    MOTH Emperor

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    There is no great 20K location on a river unless we plan on abandoning Carthage (greeen site). Forgetting about the capitol, the only missing item is that there is only 1 hill. This location has: 2 bg, 2 river bg, 2 cows, 2 forest, 1 hills, 5 coast, 2 seas, 4 river grass.
    I calculate at size 12 there will be 24 sheilds by mining everything.

    Its still close to the capitol, but Aqua (that doesn't show up well at all) has many hills but only 2 bg and a cow (the capitols) and oysters. I think we would have 22 shields at size 12.

    The game turn is too late for me to grab the turn, so if someone else wants to take it go ahead... Its just about bed time for me
     

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  2. Zakharov

    Zakharov Academician

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    One last thought before I go (sorry for the consecutive posts), here are two sites that are candidates for a 20K city. [See image below].

    Site 1: (Hill,river) This is inland and allows for many shields if we irrigate the grasslands. In radius: 4G, 3BG, 2 forest (with G/BG underneath), 3P, 3 hills, 5 mountains.

    Site 2: (Plains, river, coastal) This allows us to add coastal wonders to the 20K city, but detracts from shield production. In radius: 3G(1 with cow), 2BG, 1 forest (G/BG underneath), 2P, 3 hills, 2 mountains, 6 coast, 1 sea.
     

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  3. fbouthil

    fbouthil Occasional Mercenary

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    I see MOTH and Zakharov beated me to it, but here are my thoughts on the 20K city position:

    Using the color code of the image in attachment:
    Advantages: On river, on coast
    Disadvantages: The capital will have to be abandonned.
    At size 12, it should labor the following (out of despotism):
    City:__________2f/2sh
    2 Cows (mined): 8f/4sh
    4 BG (mined):___8f/8sh
    1 H (mined):____1f/3sh
    2 F:___________2f/4sh
    3 G (mined):____6f/3sh
    Total:_________27f/24sh
    We could plant 3 forest to get 24f/27sh.
    In despotism, we would get 25f/23sh
    After we abandon the capital, if it is on BG, we get another sh. We also get the palace for more culture.


    Advantages: On coast. Far enough from capital to keep it.
    Disadvantages: Will have some corruption (guess: 20% in despotism, 10% in republic), requires an aqueduc & a harbor.
    At size 12, it should labor the following (out of despotism):
    City:__________2f/2sh
    1 Cows (mined): 4f/2sh
    1 whale (harbor):4f/1sh
    4 BG (mined):___8f/8sh
    2 H (mined):____2f/6sh
    1 F:___________1f/2sh
    2 G (mined):____4f/2sh
    Total:_________27f/24sh
    We could plant 3 forest to get 24f/27sh.
    In despotism, we would get 25f/22sh


    Similar to blue, but gives 1 less shield if my count is correct. No harbor needed.

    Similar to blue but no harbor.
    At size 12, it should labor the following (out of despotism):
    City:__________2f/2sh
    1 Cows (irr):____5f/1sh
    3 BG (mined):___6f/6sh
    2 H (mined):____2f/6sh
    3 F:___________3f/6sh
    3 G (mined):____6f/3sh
    Total:_________24f/24sh
    In despotism, we would get 24f/23sh by replacing F by G (mined)


    Therefore, I suggest the blue spot. The red or the yellow are also good choice. I did not analyse the spot near the oysters as they seem to give less shields.

    If we plan on abandoning the capital, I think it should not build any infrastructure. Only settlers, workers & warriors. If we keep it, I suggest settler & warriors first, then workers to join in the 20K city as soon as enough tiles around it can profit from it.

    The 2 workers should go work for the 20K city immediately.

    P.S.: Someone should double-check my calculations. I am getting tired and I probably made a few mistakes. Since those spots have only a few sh of difference between them, it may be enough for a spot to be better than the yellow one.
     

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  4. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    Here's a stab at a map based on what we know now.



    Red dot is coastal has the spices and a shield producing coastal tile on expansion, and four forests and a BG in its first tier.

    Yellow dot gets a riverbank, two mutton and wool producing hills for 2f2s1g out of the box, two river valley tiles on expansion and also serves as a barrier to any encroaching Romans.

    The aqua dot gets a feed lot that can be easily watered, two hills and two bonus grass, plus a forest with spices.

    The lilac spots are decent but it's a pick 'em. Of the three I prefer the one SSE of Carthage.

    Given the terrain I foresee lots of opportunity for MGL exploitation and the rigorous application of prebuilds if we intend to pursue a 20K 5CC. Sp we need to priortise the our build orders. We also need to preserve our forests for as long as we can as those two shields will come in handy.

    If the map is consistent with GOTM28 we share an island with one other nation, apprently the Romans with the 3/3/1 legion. If Vulcan (AKA mad-bax) is good to us then the mountains in the Vale of Lambs will hold iron. If not, then it is going to be archers and NuMercs against legions (not a bad combination).

    Interesting set-up. I'm looking forward to everybody's thoughts on this one.
     
  5. fbouthil

    fbouthil Occasional Mercenary

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    The more I think about it, the more I like the red spot (2 tiles from the capital in my previous post). It is going to take a long time to get construction so without access to fresh water, production would be small for a long time. If we settle on the red spot and accept the fact of having to abandon the capital, the capital would create at least 2 more settlers, then pomp workers to join the 20K city until it gets to size 12 where we abandon the capital, relocating the palace in the 20K city. It would also create warriors when it waits to grow for MP & disband rush.

    @Bede: I do not think tight city placement (3 tiles between every city) is a good idea since we only have 5 cities. War with the romans would be tricky, but could yeld a lot of benefits. I do not really like archers vs legions as archers would tend to get killed before they have the chance to get promoted.

    IMHO, Rome likes to go at war pretty soon after it gets iron so we may have to accept an early ga. Therefore, it really makes sense to get ready for war, but it may be a little early to think about that.
     
  6. MOTH

    MOTH Emperor

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    @ALL: I also like the location fbouthil has listed. The settlers and workers will help make 20K city grow much faster.

    My proposals:
    1. found 20K city on E-NE from Carthage
    2. Start on Colossus immediately in 20K city.
    3. Build a worker in Carthage in 3? turns to add immediately to 20K city.

    @fbouthil, the advantage of arches and mercs vs legions is that when a legion attacks the archer gets a defensive shot and then the merc defends. This is a nice combo and 1xarch + 2x merc will rarely lose defending against 2x legion. On the attack, I would rather attack with the archers than the mercs as they are cheaper when lost.

    As far as research and pre-builds, we are not going to have CB and a temple for an immediate build as writing won't complete for another 20 turns. This also means we won't expand to get 2nd cow for quite some time. After this we can trade writing to Rome for whatever they have at the time probably and if they don't have CB, research it in 6 or so turns. So, 26 turns until CB, 3+ turns until we found 20K city. This might be right about the right length of time to build Colossus.

    I don't have the game up right now. Can anyone confirm how many shields colossus would take to build? I can then start calculating when 20K will grow and about how many sheilds it will have on each turn. I think Colossus id 200 sheilds which means:
    4tx2, 5t4x, 5tx6,1tx8=66 shields when we grow to size 4.
    +4x8, +10=106 size 5
    +4x10, +12=158 size 6
    +4x11, +14=216 size 7 = 30 turns assuming some corruption and assuming that we haven't artificially increased the size of 20K. If we pump a worker in as soon as another can be built from Carthage then I think we shave off at least 5 turns.

    If we have a bunch of archers hanging arround to disband we can also get the temple in 1 or 2 turns after this.
     
  7. fbouthil

    fbouthil Occasional Mercenary

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    Yes, I confirm that the colossus is 200sh. I think MOTH underestimates the corruption and I would add 2t, but I may be wrong about this.

    As for pumping workers, I think it would be wise to think we won't do it until we get settlers. Otherwise, the next city would come pretty late and we would be pretty weak. If I calculate correctly, Carthage will have 4f toward size 3 when we found the 20K city. Then it won't work the cow anymore so growth in 8t afterward (the sooner we can get the next settler). Then it is going to take another 20t before another settler can be built, which put us just before the colossus is built.

    Anyone wants to try to see where we could set the next cities if we take that spot for the 20K city? I think we should think about RCP around the 20K city since the palace is going to relocate there. I think it would be important. If it is crappy for the next cities, then we may take it into account before deciding to settling there or not.

    I do not have the time right now; I have to go to work.
     
  8. Zakharov

    Zakharov Academician

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    I have done a few calculations for some of the proposed 20K sites. I will refer to positions 1 and 2 in my image (post 42) and the four coloured dots in fbouthil's image (post 43). I have calculated the best output possible for a size 12 city in Republic and also for a size 20 city with all land squares railroaded. Output is food/shields/commerce.

    Position 1: Size 12 - 24/22/21 , Size 20 RR - 40/50/33
    Position 2: Size 12 - 24/25/23 , Size 20 RR - 41/39/37
    Red circle: Size 12 - 24/27/22 , Size 20 RR - 45/36/35
    Green circle: Size 12 - 24/25/20 , Size 20 RR - 43/33/35
    Blue circle: Size 12 - 24/25/17 , Size 20 RR - 43/42/31
    Yellow circle: Size 12 - 24/25/18 , Size 20 RR - 42/45/29

    I am unsure of how many shields and commerce are produced in the centre square of a size 7+ city with our two civ traits. I have assumed the tile to give 2/2/3 (4 commerce on a river) though it will be the same wherever the city is placed, so will not affect the scaling of these numbers.

    I can give details of what tiles need working when we choose a location. It is too much to write for all 6 sites.

    The red circle site will give us maximum shield production at size 12, but will suffer once it gets to size 20. If we do move to the red circle, we can also build another city at position 1 with no overlapping tiles. I think a city at position 1 will be important to get us iron and hopefully coal from the mountain range.

    The yellow circle site is useful. It has good size 12 production and also good size 20 production. It will require an aqueduct though and we will not get construction for a while yet. Our 20K city must be at size 12 asap. This site only overlaps one square with Carthage, so we could keep Carthage until we get sanitation and use the palace build to prebuild wonders in the new city.

    Just some things to think about. I definitely think a production powerhouse at position 1 needs settling whether it is a 20K city or not.
     
  9. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    I based city placmennt on the assumption that Carthage would not need to work any more fields than its immediate surroundings for a long time so the spacing is really pretty loose.

    Moving the capitol to the coast will make for awkward future placement, I think.

    Also my lavender dot SSW of the capitol is badly placed and should be moved one SE towards the giant clam.

    Lastly, making the capitol the 20K loses the palace as a prebuild option.
     
  10. MOTH

    MOTH Emperor

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    I do not doubt you. Where we are only 2 tiles from the capitol corruption will be very small, but I would not be suprised if it takes 2 more turns than I planned. We might shave another turn or 2 off by disbanding a warrior or 2 before we are forced to switch to a wonder.

    Assuming that we found 20K on the river/grass/coast then Zak's #1 (size 20 powerhouse) would be at RCP 5.5. RCP 5.5 is nice because there are good positions with no tile overlap and the temple radius's link up nicely with few gaps. The other 2 locations would be Bede's purple i the middle of all the spices and a bg on the coast near the whales. City #5 would then be used when we abandon the capitol and would be founded at a location of strategic importance.

    Still, I don't think RCP is very important in 5CC. I think it would be better to grab stategic locations, like the valley of the sheep. We will need the southern outpost to support the war against Rome. The 20K city will get to 100 then 1000 culture pretty fast and will have a good size cultural border. We should plan to link the cultural borders of these cities assuming that 20K will be 1000 and each of the others will be 100. This is CxxxxxxxC from 20K and CxxxxxxC from others. Exceptions to this are certainly within reason for better locations. We want as little room as possible for other cultures to settle our continent. Second thought: maybe we do want other cultures to settle where we then attack, get MGLs, and then settle for peace?
     
  11. MOTH

    MOTH Emperor

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    These are both true. We may not need to abandon Carthage for quite some time. By that point we can have 20K at size 12 and another city at size 12 and force the palace to jump to the non-20K city.
     
  12. MOTH

    MOTH Emperor

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    Completely unrelated thought for later in the game:

    Would this work (all in one turn to stay within 5CC limit):
    1. Build a bunch of settlers and get them in position.
    2. Found cities and/or capture cities so that we have at least OCN/2 # of cities.
    3. Start production of Forbidden Palace in 20K city.
    4. Abandon all cities except for 5CC.

    If this would work it would have some nice side affects of lower corruption in all cities, especially 20K. In addition it would supply extra culture to 20K city.

    Can anyone tell me what is the OCN for this map and our Civ? Does the commercial trait affect the OCN?
     
  13. Zakharov

    Zakharov Academician

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    Switching to a wonder becomes unavailable if any of the shields in the city stockpile are gained from either a forest chop or disbanding a unit. All wonder shields must come from the tiles being worked (or a leader).


    You are right, RCP is not useful in 5CC at all. What is vitally important is
    a) securing resources and
    b) getting maximum possible output from all 5 cities.
    RCP is needed to keep a productive core when you have many cities. With only 5 cities corruption is not a major factor (unless you build a long way from the capital, ie. 20+ squares. In my test game I had my furthest city at 15.5 tiles from the capital. Once a courthouse was built, it was almost as productive as the other cities (under 10% corruption). It was built that far away to secure wines as a third luxury.
     
  14. MOTH

    MOTH Emperor

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    In favor of the river/forest/coast location (fbouthil's red) I have noted fbouthil and MOTH in favor. I wasn't able to determine Bede's and Zakarov's opinion and I haven't seen any comments by TB on this.

    In about 20 minutes I will start lunch and can take my turn in the cycle. I don't want to step on any SGOTM etiquite, do we need concensus on something like this or should I just go ahead an do a turn?
     
  15. Zakharov

    Zakharov Academician

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    The world size is listed as mystery. From the scale of the minimap, I estimate that we are playing something between standard and large. The OCN for standard is 16, large is 24. AFAIK the commercial trait reduces corruption in all cities, it doesn't affect the OCN.

    Your FP idea is an interesting one, but I doubt we could afford the shields to build enough settlers to make it work, and we won't be able to support a large enough military to take the towns from other civs in one turn. It probably isn't even possible to build the FP when you go back to 5 cities. In my test game, I was half way through building Manhattan Project when I lost my uranium and the production was auto switched to something else. I wouldn't want to try all of this just to lose the FP build when we cut back down to 5 cities. Nice idea though :thumbsup:
     
  16. Zakharov

    Zakharov Academician

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    I don't think we all have to agree in a "by the rules" sense, it just helps us as a team if we are all pulling towards the same goal.

    As for city placement, having thought about this for a couple of hours, I say Carthage will have to go sooner or later. We can't let it grow to size 20 as we would waste those two coast squares. I agree that fbouthil's red circle spot is probably the best for the 20K city. I wish I had thought of that before moving the settler N on turn 20, it could be there already and now it will take two more turns. I was more worried about the spices at the time.

    Most of our culture buildings will be in place before we get hospitals, so the early production and coastal/river location at the red spot makes for the best 20K site. Plus we have a head start improving the tiles close to it. Carthage doesn't need to be disbanded straight away, it can stay as a military/worker production line, just make sure to give tile priority to the new city. Get a barracks built there for some veteran units. It can be disbanded when we are all set with four other cities and need to settle a new fifth city.

    I definitely want that powerhouse at my position 1. We could jump the palace there when the time comes as it will be in a nice central location.
     
  17. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    I think the site 1 as shown below the down the river to the Vale of Lambs.

    Position 1: Size 12 - 24/22/21 , Size 20 RR - 40/50/33
    Position 2: Size 12 - 24/25/23 , Size 20 RR - 41/39/37

     
  18. Zakharov

    Zakharov Academician

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    I take it MOTH is playing next. Are you guys all playing 20 turns? If so then the stop dates are:
    MOTH - Turn 40 (2150BC)
    player3 - Turn 60 (1500BC)
    player4 - Turn 80 (1000BC)
    player5 - Turn 100 (550BC)
    Zakharov - Turn 110 (350BC)

    This is just a reminder of which turn corresponds to which date, so that we don't get out of sync. I see from the submissions list that some teams have stopped at 3050BC (Turn 19). They forget that the turn you open the save is turn 0, not turn 1 :)
     
  19. TimBentley

    TimBentley Deity

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    Moving a lot of units into another city also would result in the palace going there.

    Well, I calculated corruption based on a standard map and a OCN of 20 (didn't think to check PTW's OCNs), and based on Zakharov's thoughts regarding the map size, they shouldn't be too far off. I decided to calculate for all sites suggested for a 20k city. These figures assume a despotism, a noncapital, and a connection to the capital. I calculated with and without a courthouse, and the closest to and farthest from the capital (not farthest for the red site).
    In order no courthouse/rank 1, no courthouse/rank 4, courthouse/rank 1, courthouse/rank 4:
    position 1-distance 3-11.5%/18.6%/6.6%/12.4%
    position 2-distance 3-11.5%/18.6%/6.6%/12.4%
    red circle-distance 2-8.5%/5.0%
    green circle-distance 4-14.6%/22.7%/8.1%/14.0%
    blue circle-distance 4-14.6%/22.7%/8.1%/14.0%
    yellow circle-distance 5-17.7%/24.7%/9.6%/15.5%

    I'm going to eat lunch now; MOTH, it's all right if you play before I conclude my number-crunching (which could prolong until this evening). The red spot looks good. I think that no waste will occur up to 5 shields, one shield will be wasted up to 17 shields, and by the time more than two shields would be wasted, corruption have lowered.
     
  20. MOTH

    MOTH Emperor

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    I have played 10 turns as follows. I suggest that the next player plays until we get Writing (11 turns) and we can examine what are the trading opportunities with Rome.

    SGOTM

    turn 0 - 3000 BC: switched Carthage to product Merc. We are losing a couple gold to unit support and this can be disbanded later to rush the temple.

    1 - 2950: worker and settler E and explore.

    2 - 2900: carthage grows to 2, science back to 10%, worker road, settler SE, warriors explore

    3 - 2850: Utica founded and start on Colossus (grow in 5), worker mine other carthage bg, warriors explore

    4 - 2800: warriors explore, worker move to Utica BG. Find more Roman borders in the south and they have a river and cow for Rome.

    5 - 2750: worker mine bg, warriors explore. There is a barbarian adjacent to Rome and another cow just outside temple radius of Rome.

    IBT: barb leaves Rome toward our warrior.

    6 - 2710: worker moves to roaded grass across river near Utica, warriors explore. I think I've found the edges of this continent. The warrior near Rome will head North to try and interfere with future settler pairs from Rome.

    7 - 2670: Carthage !Numidian Mercenary#1! > settler in 6 (grow in 4). He will stay in carthage for MP for now and in case any barbs start roaming. warriors explore - definately a continent. worker to bg

    8 - 2630: Utica grows and laborers adjusted. Check Science slider as we are at +10GPT and writing is still in 13 so set back to 10%. Rome still only have WC - will give it to us for 1GPT plus 110 G - I say no. warriors explore - Rome has a settler pair ahead of our warrior heading north. Our warrior is in Rome's territory so I didn't have to attack the barb fortified on a hill.

    IBT - barb warrior attacks us - we win but are down to 1 HP. I won't bother resting yet. Rome asks us to leave and I say yes.

    9 - 2590: warriors explore - there are only a few coast squares we can't see now and some interior territory of Rome

    10 - 2550: warriors explore. I left one warrior with movement in the south for the next player to decide if we should explore some of Rome's innards. Worker starts Irrigating toward other cow (even though we won't need this for some time. Carthage: size 2 - grow in 1, settler in 3 - Merc will be needed for 3 turns as MP. Utica - size 2 - grow in 3, Colossus in 45 - Merc will be needed as MP here once Utica grows and Carthage builds settler. Sceince check - can't get it in less than 11. Rome still has WC and will now sell to us for 126 Gold (out of 149 in treasury)

    Firaxis 79, Jason 105

    Two attachments are North and South of the continent.

    The save is here

    Edit (my work PC makes terrible images for some reason): Here is where the Roman settler pair moved (red line) and suspected move (blue line). You can't tell in the image but there are sheep and/or wool in that area so I expect them to settle soon. The escort is one warrior.


    (still a terrible picture, good thing I'm not a graphics artist or I'd get fired)
     

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