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SGOTM4 - Team Bede

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession GOTM (SGOTM)' started by mad-bax, Sep 19, 2004.

  1. fbouthil

    fbouthil Occasional Mercenary

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    All right! There has been a lot of discussion since this morning! That is my kind of SG! Yeah! In my previous 2 SG, only 2 players, including me, were actively discussing strategies but I see that most players here are. :cool:

    I read the article Bede mentioned and I agree it helps a lot. We have to adapt it because it assumes C3C and is not limited to 5 cities.

    Some thoughts:
    • Do we really need a granary since we will build only 4 settlers? :hmm:
    • Unless there appends to be bonuses 2 tiles from the capital, it looks like we will go with the plan outside the capital (not enough sh IMHO).
    • I suggest that the warriors scout around the capital until we find a good spot for the 20K city. Then they can go in strait lines to find contacts.
    • Well, I do not usually go in that much detail, but MOTH forgot to count the move on turn 6, but it does not change the fact that we can build warriors on turn 5, 9, 12, 14 and a settler on turn 20 unless there is some kind of bonus we cannot see yet. In that case, I agree with Bede to build less warriors to get the settler on the same turn as the city grows to size 3.
    • After the second BG is improved (turn 11 if I calculated correctly), then we can chop a forest, but I do not think we need it yet. IMHO, I think we should build a road toward the most likely spot for the 20K city to get it settled ASAP. Since we won't have much scouting done at that point, it is going to be a guess about the correct direction, but it is worth a shot.
    I completely agree with that! Since you are the only one with SGOTM experience, I guess you know what you saying and you would not say a thing like that if you were pretty sure about it. Should we celebrate already? :beer:
     
  2. TimBentley

    TimBentley Deity

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    That's a good point; the granary is obviously not helpful only for a settler factory or a worker factory (we won't need scores of workers), but faster growth in general, but the shields could probably be better spent.

    No, we shouldn't celebrate yet. If we get bad RNG, we might not win. ;) Seriously, however, there are many other good teams, and I shall not continue further because I'm sure both of you are not really so cocky you already think victory is assured. Or we could possibly win the green laurel (although Bede already has one...)
     
  3. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    Good thinking all.

    On the scouting thing:
    Down the river to find the coast ASAP. Then as each warrior trains send 'em out on the compass.

    Contacts will make the difference and the sooner we find 'em the better off we will be. Scouting in a spiral around the capitol will only tell us what we will learn soon enough anyway.
     
  4. MOTH

    MOTH Emperor

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    We do have a bonus near the start. I think its a cow. It may be worth a move SE to the second forest so that the Cow is in the initial radius.
     

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  5. MOTH

    MOTH Emperor

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    There was also my early idea about a 'throw away' city. Maybe the initial position of Carthage isn't important and after it pumps out 4 Settlers and bunches of workers (to pump up the population on 20K city then we toss it. We will need to decide if we want the palace jump to the 20K city or to another city (maybe another continent).

    As far as the initial setllement location, I think it is worth the turn to move SE. This gets irrigation to the cow pretty quickly and we will grow much quicker. Maybe even enough to do warrior>settler initially.

    Lets see...
    Worker: E (0), Mine (1-3), R (4-5), S (6), I (7-8), R (9-10)
    Food/Shields:
    Turn 0: none
    Turn 1: 3/2 Turn 2: 6/4 Turn 3: 9/6 Turn 4: 12/8 Turn 5: 15/10
    Turn 6: 17/3 Turn 7: 20/7 Turn 8: 24/11 Turn 9: 28/15 Turn 10: 32/19
    Turn 11: 36/23 Turn 12: 40/28 Turn 13: 44/33

    Warrior in 5, Settler in 13.
     
  6. MOTH

    MOTH Emperor

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    A better thought that takes better advantage of food:
    Worker: E (0), R (1-2), S (3), I (4-5), R (6-7), N & M (8-10)
    Food/Shields:
    Turn 0: none
    Turn 1: 3/2 Turn 2: 6/4 Turn 3: 9/6 Turn 4: 12/8 Turn 5: 16/10
    Turn 6: 20/4 Turn 7: 24/7 Turn 8: 28/10 Turn 9: 32/13 Turn 10: 36/17
    Turn 11: 40/23
    Now 2 options:
    Turn 12: 44/27 Turn 13: 48/33 Net: Warrior in 5, settler in 13, 8 extra food.
    Assuming that we get another forest in expanded rangeL
    Turn 12: 3 laborers each work 2 shield tiles (Forest, Bonus Grass, and ?Forest?)
    40/30! Net warrior in 5, settler in 12, as of 13: 4 extra food and 2 extra shields
     
  7. Zakharov

    Zakharov Academician

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    My suggestion to settle NE was based on the two resources I saw to the NW in the fog which have been removed. I agree with MOTH, there is definitely something SE,SE. Does this mean we still want to stay put, or move toward that possible resource? I want to get this decision right, as it will set us up for the entire game.

    As far as the granary goes, a 20K city will certainly need one as we want it up to size 12 asap, (it can then be sold of course). It costs 60 shields, but is worth 80 food for a size 8+ city growing to size 12. At size 7 the granary is empty, so we may want to wait to build/rush the granary to be completed when the city is at size 7.

    As we all seem to agree that moving the worker E is the best option, I will make that move, see what is revealed and then post a screenshot. We can then decide where to settle.
     
  8. Zakharov

    Zakharov Academician

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    Well here is what we have after moving the worker E:
     

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  9. Zakharov

    Zakharov Academician

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    I think that cow (and the coastline) was worth the move E :)

    With only one mountain and no hills in view, this first city will probably have to be a throw away city. The BGs are fine for the ancient age, but for good shield production in the middle age and beyond, we need a few hills/mountains in the city radius.

    I say we get this city up and running, get a settler for a 20K city and then get some military support built. We don't need to worry about culture here if we will disband later. Once we reach the middle age, spit workers (+1 settler) from this city to rapidly improve an alternate site, then disband and join the workers to the new city to get it up to size 12 without needing a granary.

    I therefore suggest settling SE. This gets the cow in our immediate radius, along with 3 BGs (maybe more in the fog). We also get at least 3 forests in the expanded radius as there is one SE of the cow. Moving SE also means we don't have to irrigate BG to then irrigate the cow, as we can use the city as a water source. The wasted coast is irrelevant if this city doesn't grow above size 12.

    Do I still mine/road on the BG or do I get the cow irrigated asap?

    Its late now (4am) so I'll play my turns later after you guys get a look at this image and give me some input.
     
  10. fbouthil

    fbouthil Occasional Mercenary

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    MOTH second plan seems to indicate that irrigating the cow before mining the BG saves 1 turn (but road the BG before going on the cow).

    I think we should wait until we see the remaining 7 tiles of the capital before we decide if it is a throw away city. It does sound unlikely that it will have enough shield to be the 20K city though.

    I agree with settling SE.
     
  11. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    WE could go whole hog and move the settler to the coast. I can't interpret the graphics in the screenshot very well but it looks like going to the coast will land us on a bonus grass. If so, as a commercial civ the extra shield kicks in at size 7, so, we could do worse.

    In any case I would irrigate the cow.

    Perhaps a better chioce is settle on the spot and put the second city on the coast to the SE. It can share the cow the capitol as needed for growth

    I am not a big fan of founding and then abandoning. That is just too much productivity down the drain.

    Then again, moving the settler one to where the worker stands gets the cow, the river and the forests and lots of riverside terrain for the commerce kicker. We lose the coast but that is not that big a deal. The capitol doesn't need more than ten spt for the AA to do what we need it to anyway.
     
  12. MOTH

    MOTH Emperor

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    I still say settle to the SE. We can only see 3 BG and I hate to lose one with the settler.

    A reminder to Zak on micromanagement. Its not too bad. Road the BG and then move to irrigate the cow - the extra food will be wasted and we need the worker movement.
    On turn 6 when we grow move the laborer from the forest to the BG. On turn 11 move the laborers to all of the forests and you also need to manage the mood using the luxury slider. Just move it back once the settler is built.
     
  13. fbouthil

    fbouthil Occasional Mercenary

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    @Zakharov: You are playing until 4am! I do not know about you, but when I am tired, I usually make bad decisions. I suggest you get more :sleep:

    After a good night of :sleep:, I realized a few things:
    • We are planning on building only one warrior 7t before the settler. We won't have much scouting done at that point. We are gambling on the warrior going in the right direction. Any suggestions on where the warrior should scout?
    • I did a small test yesterday with the Carthagians in a random game and when I founded the second city, I realized that I did not have CB yet and could not build a temple! I was researching writing at 10% (it was still 40t at 100%) and had contact with 2 civs who did not start with it. Of course there are 3 religious civs in our game so we will probably be able to trade for CB, but I wanted to mention it so we realize that we are making a small gamble.
    • I had plenty of forests for that city and even started a forest cut before I settled to get the temple faster. At that point, I got lucky and pop CB from a goody hut. I made 2 other forest cut (using 2 workers) before the temple was complete.
     
  14. MOTH

    MOTH Emperor

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    Given the mini-map location and the coast I suggest that the warrior explore South along the coast. He will get to the cow in one move and the go south keeping the shore in view for the first 7 moves. If we don't find another river then we need to think about how far do we want to go before founding 20K city.

    As for the capitol builds after the settler, I'd want to get up to size 4 before getting the next settler, so 2 or 3 warriors next, then a settler, then setup as a military/worker pump with some of the workers going to 20K city to build population quickly.

    As for rotation, assuming that Zakarov gets a turn posted this afternoon does anyone object if I take the next turn? I should be able to get it turned around this evening.
     
  15. fbouthil

    fbouthil Occasional Mercenary

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    I was thinking about the same general direction for exploration: follow the coast to the SE.

    As for the next things that we build, I think we should build a second worker for the 20K city before the next settler. At least, that is what is suggested in the war academy. My last night test shows that it is very useful to cut forest to get a temple in there quick and it is much faster with 2 workers.

    I do not mind too much if MOTH goes before me. I think it is forbidden for players to switch turns because a player really wants to take the next turn. Since we are still in the first round, maybe it could be seen as determining the rooster order.
     
  16. TimBentley

    TimBentley Deity

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    Let's see, settling to the SE would have 3 forests, 3 BGs, plenty of grassland, a plain, a mountain, a coast, and would allow us to irrigate the cow without irrigating the BG (looks like I haven't said anything new). That looks good to me. I would suggest setting the capital to emphasize production so it doesn't work an unimproved BG instead of a forest upon growth or something.

    Regarding the temple, we ought to be able to get CB before the temple's prebuild is done.

    I don't really mind if the roster is altered from what was previously suggested.
     
  17. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    How about this for a roster? It's a little out of place for time zone management but I'm sure we will survive.

    Zakharov
    MOTH
    fbouthil
    TimBentley
    Bede

    Note to team: Switching spots is forbidden if it results in a stronger player substituting for a weaker. However, judging from the commentary to this point I don't see that as an issue here. It would become a problem if somebody wanted to take my slot :)
     
  18. Zakharov

    Zakharov Academician

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    Turns complete. Save is here:

    3000BC

    Here is the surrounding area (turnlog will follow):
     

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  19. Zakharov

    Zakharov Academician

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    Firstly I changed a couple of the preferences. I switched on team colour discs and switched off the advanced unit commands. Feel free to switch them back.

    Turn 0 (4000BC): Worker E, settler SE revealing grassland S.

    Turn 1: Carthage founded. The cow is worked at 3food/1shield. Warrior in 5 turns.
    Writing set at 20% as 10% will produce no science. This gives +2gpt. Worker roads BGriver in 2.

    Turn 2: No action.

    Turn 3: Road complete, worker S to cow. This reveals oysters in coast square S,S of cow.

    Turn 4: Worker irrigates cow in 2.

    Turn 5: No action.

    Turn 6: Warrior1 built, next warrior in 5. We need these warriors for exploration. Correct city placement in 5CC is vital.
    Cow irrigated, Carthage will now grow in 1 turn with no wasted food. Worker will road cow in 2.
    Warrior1 moves S and discovers a river and what appears to be a mountain range.

    Turn 7: Carthage grows to size 2. Forest 1/2/1 is auto worked, switched to roaded BGriver 2/1/2. The warrior is built in 2 either way and the BG will waste no shields, plus gives extra food and commerce. Carthage now produces 4fpt, due to grow in 5.
    Science is reduced to 10% (34 turns), which is the same as 100%.
    Warrior1 moves S. More mountains to the SW and an ocean to the SE.

    Turn 8: The cow is roaded. Carthage now at 6com/turn. 100% is still the same as 10% science.
    Worker N on road to mine BGriver in 3.
    Warrior1 S to hill, rocks spotted on coast square.

    Turn 9: Warrior2 built, warrior in 4 (3 once BG is mined in 2). As already stated, we need to explore hence the third warrior.
    Warrior1 W to mountain. Lots more mountains to the W.
    Warrior2 N. Hill spotted N,N.

    Turn 10 (3500BC): Warrior1 S. Two sheep in mountain range (luxuries I believe).
    Warrior2 W to mountain. 3x Spices discovered plus more coast to the W and a cow NE,NE,N.

    Turn 11: Border expansion. BGriver mined, warrior in 1, 1 shield will be wasted but there are no squares more powerful to work.
    Worker SE to BGriver.
    Warrior1 S. Some grass and forest found the other side of the mountain range.
    Warrior2 W.

    Turn 12: Warrior3 built, worker in 2.
    Carthage grows to size 3. Forest is auto worked, moved to the BGriver to prevent a 2 shield waste on the worker. This also gives growth in 5, not 7 with the forest. Worker mines BGriver in 3.
    Warrior1 S, wool discovered.
    Warrior2 W to coast. Rocks discovered. Will head in a SW direction.
    Warrior3 NE,NE along road. Hills and coast spotted to the E.
    Luxuries to 10%. Science remains at 10% (29 turns). Producing +5gpt.

    Turn 13: Warrior1 S. Warrior2 S. Warrior3 NE.

    Turn 14: Worker built. Carthage is size 2 (growth in 3). Settler in 8. Luxuries to 0%.
    Worker2 E.
    Warrior1 S. Red border spotted
    Warrior2 S.
    Warrior3 N to hill. Whale found.

    Turn 15: Mine complete. Both workers road immediately.
    Warrior1 W to hill. The red border is expanded so it must be the capital.
    Warrior2 S onto mountain range.
    Warrior3 NW.

    Turn 16: Both workers move to BG to the SW of Carthage.
    Warrior1 S.
    Warrior2 SW.
    Warrior3 W to hill.

    Turn 17: Rome contacted CrpMapstat says they have BW and WC, we can sell them Masonry.
    Carthage grows to size 3. Luxury rate to 10%. Settler now in 3. Two shields will be wasted, but the best squares are being worked.
    Warrior1 SE.
    Warrior2 S.
    Warrior3 W.
    Both workers road BG immediately.
    I can't trade for BW and WC, so I decide to go for BW as we are then one step from IW. Locating iron will be important in a 5CC.
    Trade - get BW for Masonry and 5g. Our UU is now available.

    Turn 18: Warrior1 S. Warrior2 SW. Warrior3 W. Both workers S to BGriver.

    Turn 19: Both workers road immediately.
    Warrior1 moves S past the Roman borders.
    Warrior2 SW. Warrior3 N.

    Turn 20 (3000BC): Settler built. Carthage to size 1, grows in 2.
    Luxuries to 0%, science to 20% (as 10% = no research). Writing in 21.
    Warrior1 S. Warrior2 S. Warrior3 N, Ivory found in a tundra forest.
    Settler moves N. We need those spices.
    One worker mines BGriver. The other moves to the N of Carthage (with the settler) as it will road to the next city.

    Save uploaded. Firaxis score: 66 (Rome 73). Jason score: 87.

    Notes: The warrior build in Carthage is a placeholder. Please change it to whatever is best. We cannot yet build a temple or a granary, so should we prebuild for one of these, or get another warrior for MP duty? Or maybe a barracks?

    Warrior1 (farthest S) should keep going S, hopefully to find another civ.
    Warrior2 should keep going to the W of Rome.
    Warrior3 can keep exploring to the N, maybe to find a goody hut, but probably not I suppose, this is a GOTM map after all. We can only hope.

    Anyway, I hope my start is satisfactory. We certainly have a good idea of our surroundings now.
     
  20. Zakharov

    Zakharov Academician

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    I believe the SGOTM rules prevent us from using the governor to emphasise production. Please correct me if I am wrong. :hmm:

    Firstly, I was not playing until 4am, all I did was move the worker and post a screenshot. I couldn't get to play my turns til today because a) I wanted to wait and see what you guys thought of the worker move and b) I couldn't get onto the computer until late.

    Secondly, I am a night owl. I will probably make less mistakes at 4am than if I go to bed early and play at lunchtime. It takes me a long time to wake up. In future however, I will try my best to get my turns played before 11pm (6ET) so that you guys can look at the save in the evening. :)
     

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